Electricity cost in UK

[Buckman]

The current phase of global warming has been accurately plotted back to the Industrial Revolution in the mid 1750s when man made carbon dioxide emissions started to increase.

So records are less than the blink of an eye taking into account the age of our earth so hardly an indication of climate change. Besides those records probably only relate to Europe and not the world.

In comparison Europe was a minor player regarding pollution in those days as neither Africa, Asia, and the Americas etc had much of an industry at the time.

 

[otherclive]

So records are less than the blink of an eye taking into account the age of our earth so hardly an indication of climate change. Besides those records probably only relate to Europe and not the world.

In comparison Europe was a minor player regarding pollution in those days as neither Africa, Asia, and the Americas etc had much of an industry at the time.

No they are global co2 levels. But I admit that until relatively recently it was western countries responsible for the bulk of the increase.

 

[Tobes]

So records are less than the blink of an eye taking into account the age of our earth so hardly an indication of climate change. Besides those records probably only relate to Europe and not the world.

In comparison Europe was a minor player regarding pollution in those days as neither Africa, Asia, and the Americas etc had much of an industry at the time.

Records are not "less than a blink of an eye". Global temperature and atmospheric condition is laid down in both polar ice and sedimentary rock strata over thousands and indeed millions of years.

 

[Tobes]

Well said DD.

Nothing wrong with your personal choice and happy for you, but getting tired of it being rammed down our throats by numerous sources on how wonderful an EV is when it is not much better than a vehicle using fossil fuel when it comes to environmental impact.

But they are better, as you just acknowledged. Now we can discuss how much (at some other time on some other thread if you prefer).

However the over zealous drive towards an early net zero target by a certain minister who seems to live in a dream world is causing many issues i.e. Port Talbot and the net zero drive also pushing up costs due to the high cost of electric in this country.

Do you have evidence of net zero pushing up the cost or electricity or is that conjecture?

Not the fault of EV drivers obviously, but the govt who do not seem to realise that even if the UK were net zero, it will not stop pollution from other countries who are probably being a bit more sensible. We are a very tiny island and going net zero is hardly going to make any impact on world pollution.

So because our impact wont solve the issue, we should make no effort at all?

 

[Buckman]

Records are not "less than a blink of an eye". Global temperature and atmospheric condition is laid down in both polar ice and sedimentary rock strata over thousands and indeed millions of years.

Which proves that climate change has been happening for millions of years. Also no one is exactly sure of those records and most of guess work when it comes to age.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

But some forum members seem unable to ignore positive discourse on the topic and take offence whenever anything associated with EVs is mentioned. It’s like some kind of Pavlovian reaction that forces personal abuse and sarcasm without any form fact or reason.

It’s a shame, as I personally enjoy these discussions, but I am put off participating because I know at some point I will be ridiculed for my personal choices.

Extremely well put sir!

 

[Buckman]

Do you have evidence of net zero pushing up the cost or electricity or is that conjecture?

You don't have to be a genius to work that one out!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Which proves that climate change has been happening for millions of years. Also no one is exactly sure of those records and most of guess work when it comes to age.

No rational person is denying that climate change has been a continual process, However contrary to you assertion that human knowledge is just guess work, there have been several different approaches used to establish the timeline of climate change, and the correlation of results is convincing. there is also highly correlated evidence that shows the rate and range of climate change has accelerated way above any previously naturally caused changes which correlates to the growth industrial revolution.

You must be aware of the increase in the increase in both the number and severity of weather conditions around the world, How do you explain these f you don't think it's accelerated climate change?

 

[Sam Vimes]

You don't have to be a genius to work that one out!

Some of your single sentence replies recently are appearing to some as contentious and not helpful.

As I'm not a genius please explain to me and others how you worked that out.

 

[Tobes]

You don't have to be a genius to work that one out!

It's a false assertion, so no, being a genius is not pre-condition necessary to establish a correlation between net-zero and electricity costs. .

It's a well established fact that on-shore wind is the lowest cost form of generation available to us today. The more we have, the lower the cost of electricity (as has been beautifully illustrated by those leveraging the Octopus Agile tariff in this thread), and the more we remove carbon from the economy.

I include a link to levelised cost of electricity per source published by the government last year.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6556027d046ed400148b99fe/electricity-generation-costs-2023.pdf

 

[Sam Vimes]

Climate change happens continuously. What we need to understand is that are the changes becoming more severe and detrimental to life on earth.

If this is the case we also need to understand if our activities are contributing to the severity and what we can do to minimise it.

 

[Buckman]

No rational person is denying that climate change has been a continual process, However contrary to you assertion that human knowledge is just guess work, there have been several different approaches used to establish the timeline of climate change, and the correlation of results is convincing. there is also highly correlated evidence that shows the rate and range of climate change has accelerated way above any previously naturally caused changes which correlates to the growth industrial revolution.

You must be aware of the increase in the increase in both the number and severity of weather conditions around the world, How do you explain these f you don't think it's accelerated climate change?

Hopefully you are also aware that prior to the ice age the planet was probably net zero and since then we have had numerous climate changes? As current time is just a speck in the history of the earth, how do we know that it has not happened previously?

Climate change is a fact of life and so not all is due to humans. Perhaps you can explain volcanoes and other natural causes polluting the air over which we have no control perhaps causing climate change?

 

[Tobes]

Which proves that climate change has been happening for millions of years. Also no one is exactly sure of those records and most of guess work when it comes to age.

What it proves is that gradual climate change has been happening for millions of years, and that sudden and dramatic climate change on an unprecedented scale has been occurring since the industrial revolution.
There has been no "guesswork" involved, rather a series of systematic, repeatable studies, each of which has been published and peer reviewed to eliminate inconsistencies and noise from the data and subsequent conclusions.

 

[Tobes]

Hopefully you are also aware that prior to the ice age the planet was probably net zero and since then we have had numerous climate changes? As current time is just a speck in the history of the earth, how do we know that it has not happened previously?

Climate change is a fact of life and so not all is due to humans. Perhaps you can explain volcanoes and other natural causes polluting the air over which we have no control perhaps causing climate change?

Net zero describes the human impact on the planet. That is its definition. The pre-condition of net zero is humans not using fossil fuels. The climate has indeed been impacted by volcanos and other natural events, such as the meteor impact causing that last mass-extinction event at the end of the Cambrian, 65M years ago.

These events are seen in the geological record. They are noise on the line when compared to the signal generated by human activity in the last 250 years.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Tobes got there first

 

[Dustydog]

There are some scientists who blame everything on Homo sapiens.
No man no pollution and its effects.

The ultimate solution I hear is for every human to fall on their sword and bring an end to our degradation of the Mother Earth.
An interesting start.😉

 

[Tobes]

Good news DD is I don't think anyone is suggesting that the destruction of the human race is the only way to save the human race.
I think what is being suggested is a couple of things. 1) Recognise and understand that our actions (however seemingly small) have an impact on our surroundings. There are almost 8 billion of us so a lot of small somethings make one big something. 2) The good news is that a lot of small somethings make one big something. Each of us doing our small bit to limit our impact has a positive effect on our environment. And that too adds up.

There are a couple of great, short podcasts on the topic of "is it man made" by Prof Hannah Fry on the BBC in her series "Uncharted". She presents the story of the evidence in a great way.
1) Episode 2. The Hockey Stick.

BBC Radio 4 - Uncharted with Hannah Fry, 2. The Hockey Stick

A climate scientist who shocked the world and provoked a scandal.

www.bbc.co.uk

2) Episode 17. The Golden Spike.

BBC Radio 4 - Uncharted with Hannah Fry, 17. The Golden Spike

With an angry outburst at a conference, one scientist ignites a multi-decade quest

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[PTA]

It's quite amazing how many "experts" here know more than some of the most eminent scientists in the world.
It's almost as if they are in (comforting?) denial.

 

[otherclive]

You don't have to be a genius to work that one out!

I get it now, and see where you are coming from 😂

 

[GUMPY]

Good news DD is I don't think anyone is suggesting that the destruction of the human race is the only way to save the human race.

True
However a large population cull would be a good start.

 

[otherclive]

Hopefully you are also aware that prior to the ice age the planet was probably net zero and since then we have had numerous climate changes? As current time is just a speck in the history of the earth, how do we know that it has not happened previously?

Climate change is a fact of life and so not all is due to humans. Perhaps you can explain volcanoes and other natural causes polluting the air over which we have no control perhaps causing climate change?

If I had the inclination I would refer you back to earlier posts that contain links to reviewed papers that whilst they accept volcanoes and sub sea sources do emit warming gases, they are a small percentage of the emmisions from mankind, and the activities of mankind that not only emit warming gases, but destroy the eco systems that aid removal of warming gases.


Within a few seconds I found this link that discusses planetary warming, and tge effects of volcanoes.
Apologies that one reference came from some organisation named NASA. Hope they are reputable.

Page 2 - You couldn’t make it up!!

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forums.practicalcaravan.com

 

[otherclive]

One of our neighbours who is retired now, but owned a garage for sales and servicing bought a Kia Niro PHEV 22 reg and charged it using the external 13 amp outlet. Yesterday a full charging outlet was installed to the house. Spoke to him this morning and he’s ordered a Kia EV 3 as he and his wife were so impressed when the PHEV was running on electric they decided to go the whole hog. But no good for towing, but they used to inhabit the dark side of leisure vehicle ownership. But ceased that when covid struck.

 

[Sam Vimes]

The concept of Net Zero does allow for the generation of Greenhouse Gasses by human endeavours, where it's virtually impossible to stop them. In those instances other technologies such as carbon capture schemes will play apart to drive the emissions down.

However, while countries are signing up to Net Zero goals it's not surprising that there are already ways for them to claim successes without actually benefitting the planet.

Countries that have industries that are bad emitters of greenhouse gases can decide to stop production of the item and import from countries that are not signatories to the agreement.

 

[Buckman]

When and if we ever get close to Net Zero, I wonder where will the government will get the money to replace the money that has been lost due to no VAT or duty income from fossil fuels and associated areas like vehicle servicing and motor spares.

As there will be enormous job losses with many staying unemployed another VAT loss as they will not be spending money. Also losses from probably not being able sell oil to overseas markets?

How has Norway been able to cope?

 

[Dustydog]

Norway is one of the richest Countries in the World thanks to its significant oil reserves, the largest in Europe after Russia's,
They have a very small population of 5.5 million.
The strength of its economy, as measured per member of its population, is almost twice that of the UK, and bigger even than that of the US.29 Jul 2024

Ironically if the UK had managed its own home power affairs better over the last 40 years we too could be better off, dare I say more “green”. We do have vast untapped oil and gas fields alas never to be.