Electricity cost in UK

[Dustydog]

It was reported yesterday UK electricity is now about 50pc more expensive than in Germany and France, and four times as expensive as in the US.
I wonder if this is having an adverse effect on EV sales?

Saudi have recently reduced oil prices which we are now enjoying at the pumps.


I am surprised at the cost disparity . I have no wish to reopen the EV debate please but am interested why the U.K. is out of sink on power prices? I think I know the answer, too much tinkering with methods of generation over the last 30 years! .??

 

[Buckman]

I am surprised at the cost disparity . I have no wish to reopen the EV debate please but am interested why the U.K. is out of sink on power prices? I think I know the answer, too much tinkering with methods of generation over the last 30 years! .??

Quite simple actually too many cogs in the wheel and too many chiefs. For example for a meter reading there are three different parties involved. The meter reader, the data collector and the data aggregator. Then of course in the background you also have the meter operator.

The distribution company needs to make a profit, the national grid needs to make a profit, the supplier needs to make a profit to pay commissions to sales people and of course all the previously mentioned. If I remember correctly there are neatrly 12 different parties involved in the distribution of one kilowatt of electric and they all take a cut.

The other countries with lower charges, is their electric nationalised or do they have a similar structure to the UK with several or more suppliers?

 

[Mr Plodd]

My view is that there are a number of factors.
Primarily lack of foresight by ALL governments in regards to future power generation. France invested heavily in Nuclear, the UK didn't. The reasons being wide and varied. The French attitude to development is much more Govt orientated. Take their roads and railways. "We need a high speed railway between here and there, that's the best route, start next week" The same with roads and power generation. Look howxquickly tge magnificent bridge was built at Milleau.
The UK has very complex planning regulations and almost anyone can, and does, put forward all sorts of arguments against just about anything. So you an appeals process, very time consuming, and appeal to the Sec state, very time consuming, a judicial review, very time consuming. So a lot of the time the plans just get shelved withdrawn or the costs don't justify the battle.
Then you have the green lobby, who seem to oppose just about everything if its not deep "green" The UK has huge coal reserves which make electricity generation pretty cheap, but all the mines are now shut, and the last coal fired power station was "switched off" last Monday
We have had, and still have, Govts committed to a ridiculous time scale to "decarbonise" our entire power industry. So huge subsidies are being paid to solar farm developers and wind turbines companies, most of who are foreign owned, so the profits and dividends don't benefit tge UK population. All of those subsidies are lumped on energy bills (and the subsidy then has VAT added to the consumers end)
The Germans have switched off their nuclear power stations BUT are now using coal again from beyond vast open cast coal mines.
The Americans have access to vast amounts of oil and gas on home soli. The UK has oil and gas under the North Sea, but the Govt refuses licences to develop any new sources, and taxes very heavily the existing ones, those taxes are ultimately paid by the consumer (with VAT added as a final insult)
The UK has shale gas, the Govt won't permit its extraction., instead we ship kn vast amounts of wood from Canada to burn at Drax to produce electricity. Difficult to see how that can be viewed as contributing to "decarbnisation" let alone on financial cost!
But if theme isn't there?

It is a highly complex subject, and I am sure others will agree/disagree with some of my points, but I think the biggest "issue" is many years of zero foresight and reluctance to invest, be that private or public money.

Hinckley C is, I believe, being (almost) entirely financed by sources outside of the UK, and they wil expect a healthy return on their capital, and that will have to be paid by the UK consumers.

As for how to reduce our costs, I really don't think we can now!! So invest in rooftop solar panels and battery storage. That's what I have done, but the payback period is not short, but as energy prices increase the savings do tge same, so tge payback period reduces.
Stay warm everyone, and if you have an elderly neighbour, please keep an eye out for them over the winter won't you?

 

[otherclive]

It was reported yesterday UK electricity is now about 50pc more expensive than in Germany and France, and four times as expensive as in the US.
I wonder if this is having an adverse effect on EV sales?

Saudi have recently reduced oil prices which we are now enjoying at the pumps.


I am surprised at the cost disparity . I have no wish to reopen the EV debate please but am interested why the U.K. is out of sink on power prices? I think I know the answer, too much tinkering with methods of generation over the last 30 years! .??

The Saudis have lost market share in trying to keep prices at $100 dollars a barrel which their budget plans need. It now looks as if they are set to increase output yet further from 1 December. We should feel the benefits by around Easter 😱

It’s necessary to examine the markets in Germany before any conclusions have been reached. But for many years our energy prices were amongst the lowest in Europe. The US being totally different. I suspect ours have something to do with the contracts given to renewables companies where inducements were offered, plus payment for non generation when there is surplus. Tying electricity to oil price doesn’t do us any favours so hopefully as more renewables come on line there should be an opportunity to detach electric from oil and gas prices. The shambles which embraces our inability to construct new nuclear and the price given to EDF for HPC will not help financially although will improve robustness of the system.

Overall a lack of strategic planning over two decades for energy supplies and infrastructure. Just look at our pitifully low gas reserve capacity. Days not weeks or months as in some countries.Then we are importing large quantities of US and Gulf liquefied gas and that’s not cheap. The good citizens of Hampshire stopped a new France UK interconnection line too!

EV sales are dropping elsewhere too.. But nuff said.

SMARD | Electricity market in transition - this is how electricity market 2.0 works

www.smard.de

 

[Buckman]

My view is that there are a number of factors.
Primarily lack of foresight by ALL governments in regards to future power generation. France invested heavily in Nuclear, the UK didn't. The reasons being wide and varied. The French attitude to development is much more Govt orientated. Take their roads and railways. "We need a high speed railway between here and there, that's the best route, start next week" The same with roads and power generation. Look howxquickly tge magnificent bridge was built at Milleau.
The UK has very complex planning regulations and almost anyone can, and does, put forward all sorts of arguments against just about anything. So you an appeals process, very time consuming, and appeal to the Sec state, very time consuming, a judicial review, very time consuming. So a lot of the time the plans just get shelved withdrawn or the costs don't justify the battle.
Then you have the green lobby, who seem to oppose just about everything if its not deep "green" The UK has huge coal reserves which make electricity generation pretty cheap, but all the mines are now shut, and the last coal fired power station was "switched off" last Monday
We have had, and still have, Govts committed to a ridiculous time scale to "decarbonise" our entire power industry. So huge subsidies are being paid to solar farm developers and wind turbines companies, most of who are foreign owned, so the profits and dividends don't benefit tge UK population. All of those subsidies are lumped on energy bills (and the subsidy then has VAT added to the consumers end)
The Germans have switched off their nuclear power stations BUT are now using coal again from beyond vast open cast coal mines.
The Americans have access to vast amounts of oil and gas on home soli. The UK has oil and gas under the North Sea, but the Govt refuses licences to develop any new sources, and taxes very heavily the existing ones, those taxes are ultimately paid by the consumer (with VAT added as a final insult)
The UK has shale gas, the Govt won't permit its extraction., instead we ship kn vast amounts of wood from Canada to burn at Drax to produce electricity. Difficult to see how that can be viewed as contributing to "decarbnisation" let alone on financial cost!
But if theme isn't there?

It is a highly complex subject, and I am sure others will agree/disagree with some of my points, but I think the biggest "issue" is many years of zero foresight and reluctance to invest, be that private or public money.

Hinckley C is, I believe, being (almost) entirely financed by sources outside of the UK, and they wil expect a healthy return on their capital, and that will have to be paid by the UK consumers.

As for how to reduce our costs, I really don't think we can now!! So invest in rooftop solar panels and battery storage. That's what I have done, but the payback period is not short, but as energy prices increase the savings do tge same, so tge payback period reduces.
Stay warm everyone, and if you have an elderly neighbour, please keep an eye out for them over the winter won't you?

If the basic price is high, then the govt of the day rakes more in via taxes like duty and VAT so they need to keep everything artificially high.

 

[Bluetonic]

Our system is broken, from what I understand, we pay energy prices at the highest price for the day, so even if it cost 20 times less to produce from wind vs coal on any day, they all get the same price.
Madness

 

[GUMPY]

When it's windy my electric price goes negative as the company pay people to use it rather than shutting off the turbines.
Five hours last night 12.5kWh used and they paid me 5.4p
Looks like Sunday will be similar.
The joys of a time of use tariff.😎

The average electricity price is fixed by the cost of gas, the cost of production using other sources is not counted. Gas recently has gone up on price having been steady for much of the last year, I see the cost daily as I am on a tracker tariff that changes every day and is cheaper than fixed or flexible.
The gas tie needs to be broken so that wind and solar can be sold at what they cost allowing cheaper electricity.
I would like to see much more solar and wind power and an enlargement of the National Grid which will reduce the cost of Electricity.

 

[Oscarmax]

When it's windy my electric price goes negative as the company pay people to use it rather than shutting off the turbines.
Five hours last night 12.5kWh used and they paid me 5.4p
Looks like Sunday will be similar.
The joys of a time of use tariff.😎

The average electricity price is fixed by the cost of gas, the cost of production using other sources is not counted. Gas recently has gone up on price having been steady for much of the last year, I see the cost daily as I am on a tracker tariff that changes every day and is cheaper than fixed or flexible.
The gas tie needs to be broken so that wind and solar can be sold at what they cost allowing cheaper electricity.
I would like to see much more solar and wind power and an enlargement of the National Grid which will reduce the cost of Electricity.

I take it like us you are Octopus Agile

 

[GUMPY]

I take it like us you are Octopus Agile

Yes I made the mistake of coming off it last winter and paid the price. Went back after 3 months.
Its like a religion trying to maximise returns by dumping battery contents before a plunge event.

 

[Oscarmax]

Yes I made the mistake of coming off it last winter and paid the price. Went back after 3 months.
Its like a religion trying to maximise returns by dumping battery contents before a plunge event.

We change from Flux to Agile the start on December, we have a 4.4 kWh solar and 5.8 kWh battery, we are on 15 pence kWh for export so do not use our battery to export. We have a PHEV car, this year has not been to good we are breaking even including the standing charge.

 

[GUMPY]

We change from Flux to Agile the start on December, we have a 4.4 kWh solar and 5.8 kWh battery, we are on 15 pence kWh for export so do not use our battery to export. We have a PHEV car, this year has not been to good we are breaking even including the standing charge.

Sounds like my SolaX system, I started with a 5.8kWh battery lasted one winter and added another it's like night and day. I use almost no grid at all unless I choose to like last night.

I do have password access to all the settings in the app so I can switch charge and discharge times on and off. For example if night time import unit price is forecast to be below about 8p I will export most of the battery the evening before and recharge overnight.
Most years my export and other games pays my full electric bill and most of my gas standing charge. By other games I mean taking part in Savings Sessions and any other promotions Octopus run, Savings Sessions was worth over £100 last winter.
I'm just shy of £500 credit at the moment and my SO has been £6.66 since March.
As I said working it in my favour is almost a religion.

 

[Hutch]

I find it a shame, and envious , that all the people who are "Tech Savvy" can do all this saving on the power.
I looked at getting , a new boiler, and Solar panels, subsidised, but being a pensioner, that has NO benefits, I "think I cannot" risk buying solar panels.
I am very envious of the tech savvy folk.

 

[GUMPY]

I find it a shame, and envious , that all the people who are "Tech Savvy" can do all this saving on the power.
I looked at getting , a new boiler, and Solar panels, subsidised, but being a pensioner, that has NO benefits, I "think I cannot" risk buying solar panels.
I am very envious of the tech savvy folk.

It's just numbers😲 Solar can be set up by an installer and then left to do it's thing and will still save money. It's true I get more out of mine but I have to work at it.
I was 70 when my system was installed 2 years ago and I fully expect to get my outlay back.

 

[Buckman]

To sum it up, too many snouts in the trough!

 

[Gafferbill]

......its just numbers!!
Yes it's all about return on investment.
What was the outlay to make the savings?
Recently you could invest money with National Savings at 6% interest.
No risk, no hassle, no maintenance and still retain your capital.
Keep it simple without complications works for me.

 

[Guzzilazz]

There's a more fundamental issue than this. Ofgem base the price of electricity on the price of gas (nothing else). Why? Because "that's the way it is". Yesterday there was an article on the news yesterday about the last coal fired station being shut down for the final time. In that article, they trumpeted the fact that UK electricity is 57% generated through renewables and nuclear. Change the method of assessing the price and we might all see a benefit!

 

[Oscarmax]

Sounds like my SolaX system, I started with a 5.8kWh battery lasted one winter and added another it's like night and day. I use almost no grid at all unless I choose to like last night.

I do have password access to all the settings in the app so I can switch charge and discharge times on and off. For example if night time import unit price is forecast to be below about 8p I will export most of the battery the evening before and recharge overnight.
Most years my export and other games pays my full electric bill and most of my gas standing charge. By other games I mean taking part in Savings Sessions and any other promotions Octopus run, Savings Sessions was worth over £100 last winter.
I'm just shy of £500 credit at the moment and my SO has been £6.66 since March.
As I said working it in my favour is almost a religion.

We too are 68 year old pensioners our system is about 2 years old now, on an Excel sheet we would gain very little with an additional battery, it a shame my SolaX AC invertor is not compatible with Fogstar 15.5 kWh domestic battery.

 

[GUMPY]

......its just numbers!!
Yes it's all about return on investment.
What was the outlay to make the savings?
Recently you could invest money with National Savings at 6% interest.
No risk, no hassle, no maintenance and still retain your capital.
Keep it simple without complications works for me.

The cost of the system was £10k at the time I installed the solar before the recent rises the interest rate was about 2% or so. The ROI on the solar was predicted to be 9% but due to price increases has been above 11%. Even at today's rates I would struggle to get that without risk. I still own the system and can take it with me if I ever move.
My total energy cost this year so far both gas and electric is £87, less than many people pay for a month.

 

[otherclive]

The cost of the system was £10k at the time I installed the solar before the recent rises the interest rate was about 2% or so. The ROI on the solar was predicted to be 9% but due to price increases has been above 11%. Even at today's rates I would struggle to get that without risk. I still own the system and can take it with me if I ever move.
My total energy cost this year so far both gas and electric is £87, less than many people pay for a month.

How come it’s so low, do you not have gas central heating?

 

[GUMPY]

How come it’s so low, do you not have gas central heating?

Yes we do have gas central heating we also cook on gas and there is no wood burner or similar.
I did make a slight mistake in the figures above it didn't include the standing charges so my total bill so far this year is £128. This is excluding anything made from Savings Sessions which last winter was over £100.
The house is a 1980s reasonably well insulated property in Nth Devon with full double glazing and a south facing living area.
The figures from this year:

 

[Dustydog]

......its just numbers!!
Yes it's all about return on investment.
What was the outlay to make the savings?
Recently you could invest money with National Savings at 6% interest.
No risk, no hassle, no maintenance and still retain your capital.
Keep it simple without complications works for me.

Spot on!
Before starting this thread I looked into solar panels for our home. Here’s a quote from a market leader posted below.

It will take me 15.46 years to break even on my original cash outlay. By then I’ll be 87🙀

It takes no account of cleaning costs or replacement of worn out panels .Not sure where to store the batteries or how long they will last.
Think I’ll carry on caravanning.

 

[otherclive]

Yes we do have gas central heating we also cook on gas and there is no wood burner or similar.
I did make a slight mistake in the figures above it didn't include the standing charges so my total bill so far this year is £128. This is excluding anything made from Savings Sessions which last winter was over £100.
The house is a 1980s reasonably well insulated property in Nth Devon with full double glazing and a south facing living area.
The figures from this year:

View attachment 7678View attachment 7679View attachment 7680

Thanks, not dissimilar to ours except our electric tends to be steadier throughout the year, as the electric saved on the central heating pump pretty well balances out by that used by lighting in the darker months. We cook and heat with gas and when we had a new kitchen in 2021 we deliberately stayed with new gas appliances for reasons of costs, despite not even thinking there would be conflict in Europe.

 

[Sam Vimes]

In respect of Utility Supplies and with the exception of Scottish Water, they are all private companies with shareholders and directors to feed, many of which are outside the UK. There is no incentive for any of them to sell us stuff at prices we'd like. The regulatory authorities - Offgen, OffWat, Offcom are pretty toothless. To be fair though if they weren't there we'd probably see higher bills.

But why is it that come Autumn - the leaves fall and the bills rise.

My other irritation is constraint payments - payments made to generators, particularly Wind Farms - to turn off their generators when the wind is too high or there's no demand. Totals paid out to Wind Farms this year is £260,450,792. Over £66m in August alone. Conventional generators are also given constraint paymens but not on the scale of WInd Farms.

 

[otherclive]

In respect of Utility Supplies and with the exception of Scottish Water, they are all private companies with shareholders and directors to feed, many of which are outside the UK. There is no incentive for any of them to sell us stuff at prices we'd like. The regulatory authorities - Offgen, OffWat, Offcom are pretty toothless. To be fair though if they weren't there we'd probably see higher bills.

But why is it that come Autumn - the leaves fall and the bills rise.

My other irritation is constraint payments - payments made to generators, particularly Wind Farms - to turn off their generators when the wind is too high or there's no demand. Totals paid out to Wind Farms this year is £260,450,792. Over £66m in August alone. Conventional generators are also given constraint paymens but not on the scale of WInd Farms.

Hopefully as more battery storage comes on line the constraint payments may reduce. 🤞

 

[Sam Vimes]

As a point of interest our Community Hall - for which I'm the treasurer - had Solar Panels installed that went live about 2 months ago.

The system is 5Kw of panels but constrained to 3.86Kw export capability. We also have a 10kw storage battery.

The cost was just under £23k but fortunately we got a 100% grant otherwise we wouldn't have done it.

If we'd just had the money and invested it we could probably get about £1300pa and still have the capital.

So far they've worked very well and our import of volts is very low. We could export more if I could convince the rest of the committee that they are not operating the Air Source heat pump correctly. We waste a lot of energy overnight which discharges the battery. So far its topped up by Solar during the day but with the winter months coming we'll start buying in more.