Energy prices

[ProfJohnL]

Most heating in the UK is still either burning gas or consuming electricity in resistive heating systems. Whilst gas boilers of up to 40 year sold should be 70% or better at converting gas to usable heat, and electric resistive heating is 100% in both these cases the energy is used to produce heat directly from teh fuel used.

Air conditioning is rather different. The energy consumed is not directly turned into cold, instead its used to draw heat from a hot place and dispose of it remotely.

Basically an AC unit move a lot more heat energy than the energy it consumes to operated it, and that is why AC units are given a COP (Coefficient Of Performance) rating, not a simple efficiency rating.

Just as a heads up, air source and ground source heat pumps use exactly the same principle of the phase change of a fluid to absorb and dissipate heat energy, so their heat energy transfer capability is not exactly related to the energy used to run the system, though in general if you need to move more heat energy you will probably need to consume more energy to drive the system.

All such systems will operate across a wide range of conditions, and as the conditions change the actual COP will vary, so its not necessarily the case it will need twice as much power to operate if the temperature difference between the two sides of the system is doubled, or vice versa. Each appliance should be rated by its manufacture, and hopefully provided with example performance curves for different temperature and humidity conditions.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Most if not all heat pumps should include a Seasonally Coefficient of Performance.... SCOP. This gives you a more realistic figure because it takes into account the performance over different seasons.

Also being pedantic, power and energy are different measures. Power is a measure of the applied load. We pay for energy which is the product of power and time.

Hence an electric fire may be rated at a power figure of 1kw. However, if you run it for 1 hour the energy we pay for will be 1kwh

So an 8kw shower running for 10 minutes uses 4.8kwh. If you have an electric immersion heater rated at 3kw it may consume more energy since it may have to heat more water for longer than you actually need for a shower.

 

[RogerL]

Maybe, but no one told the supplier that they must take on those customers. It also seems that by reading Martin Lewis's website, the majority have been transferred to BGAS . Previously a few years ago when our supplier went bust, we were also transferred to BGAS.
More annoying is that customers were not given an option to choose their own supplier as we would have gone anywhere else except BGAS! However I do appreciate that it would have been very difficult and perhaps chaos to allow customer to make their own choice.

You did get a choice - once the transfer is complete you can switch to any company you choose.

 

[Buckman]

You did get a choice - once the transfer is complete you can switch to any company you choose.

I agree on the two previous occasions when we have been transferred, we were able to move to a supplier of our choice after being allocated a supplier by Ofgem.
However you cannot do so now as you cannot transfer to another supplier as no one is taking on new customers at present or if they are it is at stupid prices.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...you cannot transfer to another supplier as no one is taking on new customers at present or if they are it is at stupid prices.

What about new builds that are being completed, they can apparently obtain a supplier, or even those people who are being transferred by OFGEM, they are new customers. So you CAN transfer it just might not be at the most favourable rates.

 

[Buckman]

What is

What about new builds that are being completed, they can apparently obtain a supplier, or even those people who are being transferred by OFGEM, they are new customers. So you CAN transfer it just might not be at the most favourable rates.

With new builds there is one supply registered to the developer. All the supplies to new builds are not registered although they are connected up. When someone moves into the home it is up to that individual to register the MPAN to a supplier. Until they register the MPAN they will be using free electric.
When we were transferred across to BGAS in February we could not transferred as at the time as no supplier wanted to take on new customers from another supplier.
There is a lot less paperwork with a new supply than the hassle of transferring from a another supplier. It must be remembered that at the time several suppliers went bust and suppliers probably did not have the manpower to do transfers.
We could transfer now, but rates are very unfavourable.

 

[Buckman]

What would be the easier way of measuring electric consumption into a caravan bearing in mind that you cannot easily plug in a 3 pin plug?
A CL that we use quite often wants to increase their prices to cover cost of higher power costs and they have no idea of usage. The standing charge is of no consequence to them as only one meter to the whole property including the farm house and outbuildings.
Any suggestions as thinking of getting a reasonable price monitor that could somehow be fitted inline. I do know of one that was discussed on another thread that will do the job, but at over £200 it is far too pricy.

 

[otherclive]

What would be the easier way of measuring electric consumption into a caravan bearing in mind that you cannot easily plug in a 3 pin plug?
A CL that we use quite often wants to increase their prices to cover cost of higher power costs and they have no idea of usage. The standing charge is of no consequence to them as only one meter to the whole property including the farm house and outbuildings.
Any suggestions as thinking of getting a reasonable price monitor that could somehow be fitted inline. I do know of one that was discussed on another thread that will do the job, but at over £200 it is far too pricy.

I shudder at the CL owners approach. Do they expect every visitor to roll up with a meter? They could make a reasonable stab by looking at past usage records for the whole property against time of year and occupancy. That would give them an estimate upon which to base an increase in pitch fees. The other option, but more expensive to the owner would be to fit meters to each pitch, and decide then on a charging regime.

MeterMaid Portable Electricity Meter - Force 4 Chandlery

Metermaid™ is an in-line portable electricity meter that has been specifically designed to accurately measure individual electricity consumption.

www.force4.co.uk

 

[Dustydog]

Our regular CL near Harrogate uses a payg coin meter on each pitch. £1.coins. End of February was costing just under £5.00 a night. We had everything on 24/7. Mini display gives a digital read out balance of cash left. Sub £100. QED.

 

[Buckman]

I shudder at the CL owners approach. Do they expect every visitor to roll up with a meter? They could make a reasonable stab by looking at past usage records for the whole property against time of year and occupancy. That would give them an estimate upon which to base an increase in pitch fees. The other option, but more expensive to the owner would be to fit meters to each pitch, and decide then on a charging regime.

MeterMaid Portable Electricity Meter - Force 4 Chandlery

Metermaid™ is an in-line portable electricity meter that has been specifically designed to accurately measure individual electricity consumption.

www.force4.co.uk

We are quite friendly with the CL owner and their family and they did not approach us regarding metering our consumption. It was mentioned in passing during a light hearted chat, but I thought having something to monitor consumption would be handy to have on any caravan site.

Our regular CL near Harrogate uses a payg coin meter on each pitch. £1.coins. End of February was costing just under £5.00 a night. We had everything on 24/7. Mini display gives a digital read out balance of cash left. Sub £100. QED.

A CL that does not want to go to the expense of installing metering could consider increasing the tariff by £2.50 for summer months and in the winter months by £3.50 or more. No necessity to recoup outlay for installing meters and also maybe having to have metering calibrated every year.

 

[otherclive]

Our regular CL near Harrogate uses a payg coin meter on each pitch. £1.coins. End of February was costing just under £5.00 a night. We had everything on 24/7. Mini display gives a digital read out balance of cash left. Sub £100. QED.

That’s a useful approach. After all CLs have for a long time charged for showers by coins or prepaid tokens, so transferring that approach to EHU makes sense, and reduces the possibility of disagreement over the usage.

 

[ProfJohnL]

What would be the easier way of measuring electric consumption into a caravan bearing in mind that you cannot easily plug in a 3 pin plug?
A CL that we use quite often wants to increase their prices to cover cost of higher power costs and they have no idea of usage. The standing charge is of no consequence to them as only one meter to the whole property including the farm house and outbuildings.
Any suggestions as thinking of getting a reasonable price monitor that could somehow be fitted inline. I do know of one that was discussed on another thread that will do the job, but at over £200 it is far too pricy.

Consider one of these

60A Single Phase Digital Check Meter | PASS (QC4)

 

[Buckman]

Consider one of these

60A Single Phase Digital Check Meter | PASS (QC4)

Thanks but I think that needs to be wired in? A plug in "pass through" meter may be better." As said just something cheap and cheerful mainly for the sake of interest.
Our caravan does have a load monitor which is normally set to 10amp. ALDE setting is for 2kw with day temperature set to 20C and night after 10pm to 17C. Shower is used once in the night and once in the morning. Kettle is 800w so just over 3amp. Then all the odd bits and pieces using low amounts of energy.
As mentioned on another thread with occasional use of Truma Comfort air con during the day and cool evenings in early September 2021 we were using less than £2.50 a day as the pitch was metered. Unfortunately since then energy prices have jumped up considerably.

 

[Dustydog]

My CL has used this type of system for 15 years. His view is only 5 pitches. Users prefer PaYG. It avoids abuse eg heating awning. Calibration and power per £1.00 is easy. Sits in a box by the EHU.
He can more easily forecast his budget as power is no longer a variable.

https://www.jsgsolutions.co.uk/pre-pay-meters/pre-pay-coin-meters/emlite-pre-pay-coin-timer-meter-single-phase-100a.htmlOk

 

[JTQ]

No necessity to recoup outlay for installing meters and also maybe having to have metering calibrated every year.

Why would the meters need to be recalibrated every year?
The utility's meter legally has an "in calibration life" of between 10 and 20 years, and resellers, like landlords and caravan site owners are not required to recalibrate any of their secondary meters, full stop. Government document refers

IMO the move to metering is going to be the "norm" for the 5 van sites that offer EHUs, well those that survive.
Quite a percentage sadly, I feel will simply cop out of the system as the returns on a basic site with an EHU are not there with 5 vans for a viable business, in most locations.

Even pre the big energy price hike, some I knew personally were being "hurt" by the odd camper using way over an average amount of energy, now that level of hurt could be untenable. Their decision is likely to be between invest in meters or shall we say go back to sheep, or whatever.
Upping the price to include "free" electricity, I suspect in itself would negatively affect the occupancy, and so viability. Dealing with energy as a separate cost, allows clients to self-control that cost element, and the site cost be "reasonable".

 

[Buckman]

Why would the meters need to be recalibrated every year?
The utility's meter legally has an "in calibration life" of between 10 and 20 years, and resellers, like landlords and caravan site owners are not required to recalibrate these secondary meters, full stop. Government document refers

IMO the move to metering is going to be the "norm" for the 5 van sites that offer EHUs, well those that survive.
Quite a percentage sadly, I feel will simply cop out of the system as the returns on a basic site with an EHU are not there with 5 vans for a viable business, in most locations.

Even pre the big energy price hike, some I knew personally were being "hurt" by the odd camper using way over an average amount of energy, now that level of hurt could be untenable. Their decision is likely to be between invest in meters or shall we say go back to sheep, or whatever.
Upping the price to include "free" electricity, I suspect in itself would negatively affect the occupancy, and so viability. Dealing with energy as a separate cost, allows clients to self-control that cost element, and the site cost be "reasonable".

In case you missed it, the supplier does not install these meters and I also used the term "maybe". Metering installed on individdual pitches are sub meters to the main meter and are installed by the LL at their cost using their own electrician. Everything after the main meter is at the LL's cost.

As you may be regarded as a "tenant" while occupying the pitch, there may be a need for the meters to be recalibrated annually to avoid disputes etc. Also good practice anyway.

 

[Dustydog]

In case you missed it, the supplier does not install these meters and I also used the term "maybe". Metering installed on individdual pitches are sub meters to the main meter and are installed by the LL at their cost using their own electrician. Everything after the main meter is at the LL's cost.

As you may be regarded as a "tenant" while occupying the pitch, there may be a need for the meters to be recalibrated annually to avoid disputes etc. Also good practice anyway.

The small payg meters I have seen are all compliant with the
European Measuring Instruments Directive (MID.
They do not need annual recalibration. I don’t think Tenancy Laws apply to a caravan camping pitch. “Regular“ recalibration is not required per se. The cost per KW is set by the site owner. Most insist they charge the going rate, no more.
My home meter has been in place 20 years and never been recalibrated.

 

[JTQ]

In case you missed it, the supplier does not install these meters and I also used the term "maybe".

I had not "missed it" at all. To quote "caravan site owners are not required to recalibrate any of their secondary meters "

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is a a real problem with trying to monitor power consumption of a whole caravan with just a plug in monitor, The only plug in monitors I have seen are based on a 13A pass through device and there is no where in a caravan that all the mains power circuits pass through a 13A socket. Consequently such meter can only monitor the power passing out of the particular socket its plugged into.

If the purpose of fitting such a meter is to monitor the amount of power with a view to charge per kWh units, then there can be other factors that can lead to errors.

Presently UK suppliers are required to charge for "Real" power as this is the traditional measurement method that the old rotating disk meters read, and for consistency the new "smart" digital meters also have to use the same measurand, but, with a retail 13A pass through plug in meter unless the specification tells whether it record real or apparent power you won't know what it records.

The difference between real and apparent power is the result of the AC power factor, and unless you measure it you can't know how much difference it will make.

If you want to record you real power usage in the way the suplliers are presently required to do it, then the rotating disk meter connected in the supply cables to the consumer unit is about as good as you can get it .

 

[Dustydog]

There is a a real problem with trying to monitor power consumption of a whole caravan with just a plug in monitor, The only plug in monitors I have seen are based on a 13A pass through device and there is no where in a caravan that all the mains power circuits pass through a 13A socket. Consequently such meter can only monitor the power passing out of the particular socket its plugged into.

If the purpose of fitting such a meter is to monitor the amount of power with a view to charge per kWh units, then there can be other factors that can lead to errors.

Presently UK suppliers are required to charge for "Real" power as this is the traditional measurement method that the old rotating disk meters read, and for consistency the new "smart" digital meters also have to use the same measurand, but, with a retail 13A pass through plug in meter unless the specification tells whether it record real or apparent power you won't know what it records.

The difference between real and apparent power is the result of the AC power factor, and unless you measure it you can't know how much difference it will make.

If you want to record you real power usage in the way the suplliers are presently required to do it, then the rotating disk meter connected in the supply cables to the consumer unit is about as good as you can get it .

Prof,
Just wondered if you have experience of the solid state equipment used by site owners today? I have seen three examples over the last five years. I’m no spark like you but there are plenty of units available on line and in use today

 

[otherclive]

My tenant hasn’t had either electric or gas meters recalibrated to my knowledge. It’s a domestic property and I’m not aware of any legal requirements to so do.

 

[JTQ]

Should I be inclined, I could readily measure my caravan's electrical energy consumption with our little domestic plug in energy meter, with kit I have already, albeit not whilst pulling the full 16 A.

Simply use a 16A Commando plug to 13A domestic socket adaptor, and a 13 A plug to 16 A Commando socket, all 13 A stuff housed out of the weather in a plastic tub. Cost of kit, zero now.

I have not been inclined, nor have I in recent years ever found cause to argue with the reading from the on-pitch meters I have hooked up to.

 

[Buckman]

I had not "missed it" at all. To quote "caravan site owners are not required to recalibrate any of their secondary meters "

Apologies I think you misunderstood my post as I was referring to the installation of the metering and again I inputted the word "maybe" into two posts as I was no sure, however DD has added valuable input.

 

[JTQ]

My tenant hasn’t had either electric or gas meters recalibrated to my knowledge. It’s a domestic property and I’m not aware of any legal requirements to so do.

The government's own document I linked to in #40, very clearly states that unless you are licenced as a reseller of electricity, then you don't need to.
Much as I suspect a farm tenant or domestic property owner whose wife runs a quarter acre 5 van DEFRA exempted caravan site, is also not licenced as an energy reselling organisation.

 

[otherclive]

The government's own document I linked to in #40, very clearly states that unless you are licenced as a reseller of electricity, then you don't need to.
Much as I suspect a farm tenant or domestic property owner whose wife runs a quarter acre 5 van DEFRA exempted caravan site, is also not licenced as an energy reselling organisation.

I was aware of that stipulation but other’s posts have seemingly indicated that meters have to be recalibrated even for domestic consumers not tenants. Which is patently not correct. There was even one set of posts claiming meters could be recalibrated remotely. Again not correct.