Energy prices

[ProfJohnL]

Surely a heat pump tumble drier has to extract its heat energy from somewhere, and in most cases that will be from within the home?
That means the home is cooled if that energy is not recovered somehow, probably meaning setting up a circle where the home heating has to work harder to recover set temperatures.

On the face of it, a bit robbing Peter to pay Paul situation, at least in the colder months where home heating is needed, the very colder weather the tumble dried would be used rather than outside drying?

You do not understand how the condenser dryer works. In a conventional tumble dryer, the air is heated to lower its specific heat which allows it to collect moisture from the content of the drum. It then vented the mist warm air which was usually vented out side to prevent condensation problems inside the house. All the heat energy in the warm moist air was lost to the out side.

Condenser dryers rather than vent all the moist air outside, instead it is passed over the evaporator coil of a closed loop refrigerant system, collects the heat from the air cooling it and causing it to drop its moisture into a collection tank. The air is then recycled over the hot condenser coil of the refrigerant system, which warms the air again before its passed through the drum to repeat the process. The drier might simply rely on the heat generated by the refrigerant compressor or it might have a modest heating element. This process will use a lot less energy than a conventional drier, and certainly wont cool the room its operating in.

 

[Buckman]

Tumble dryers are one of those products with a long expected lifespan – our most recent survey shows that a tumble dryer. That means if your machine lasts this long, it will add up to a £663 saving on your energy bills compared to a condenser dryer over the machine’s lifetime.

I wonder if we will see its lifespan. By that time something else better would have been invented i.e. instant dry and iron!

 

[JTQ]

You do not understand how the condenser dryer works.

An amazing insight, in that I did not mention "condenser tumble dryers" start to finish.
Whilst we have had one for over twenty years, I was unaware ever discussing its workings here.

In respect to "heat pump" tumble dryers you could well be right, I had not appreciated they had no element of air circulation from within the location they are installed in, basically being it seems closed space aircon systems, use for drying.
As such where would their physical location, as others have been advised of, matter at all?

 

[ProfJohnL]

An amazing insight, in that I did not mention "condenser tumble dryers" start to finish.
Whilst we have had one for over twenty years, I was unaware ever discussing its workings here.

In respect to "heat pump" tumble dryers you could well be right, I had not appreciated they had no element of air circulation from within the location they are installed in, basically being it seems closed space aircon systems, use for drying.
As such where would their physical location, as others have been advised of, matter at all?

A drier that uses a heat pump is a condenser drier. And I didn't say there was no use of the ambient air, but predominantly it will recirculate.

 

[JTQ]

A drier that uses a heat pump is a condenser drier.

No, the "drier" is evaporative, the condensing bit is simply extracting the humidity the drying picked up

 

[Jcloughie]

No, the "drier" is evaporative, the condensing bit is simply extracting the humidity the drying picked up

My condenser drier combined in washing machine is very simple. Air from drier is circulated through a unit which is continually kept cold by cold water running slowly through a heat exchanger causing the air to condense. It then empties this regularly.

John

 

[Hutch]

Our New Sharp condensor tumble drier has numerous settings, our old one had just two Hot and Cool, and a 180 minute timmer.

 

[Hutch]

Today driving around Norfolk, I was surprised at seeing 4 windfarms with maybe twenty generators on each, non of them turning. Maybe wind is not as good as the greens think ?

 

[otherclive]

Today driving around Norfolk, I was surprised at seeing 4 windfarms with maybe twenty generators on each, non of them turning. Maybe wind is not as good as the greens think ?

The “ greens” have never said it should be all wind. But just seeing some in eastern England not turning doesn’t mean this elsewhere or off shore were not generating. Being a sunny day the solar farms would have been making a contribution. You can check on the website that gives the percentages generated by each source. High pressure static weather systems do present problems for wind generation. Grateful for our nuclear and French nuclear.

Bit rich though criticising ‘greens’ when driving 250 miles just to recce sites. Couldn’t Google Earth and reviews have shown remoteness?

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

 

[Buckman]

Our New Sharp condensor tumble drier has numerous settings, our old one had just two Hot and Cool, and a 180 minute timmer.

View attachment 3025

Our heat pump one is similar and many of the selections we wil never use, but we had to pay for them anyway! We use either Express to finish off washing that has been on the line or cotton. What is the difference between the 2 cupboard drys and 2 iron drys?

 

[Sam Vimes]

Our New Sharp condensor tumble drier has numerous settings, our old one had just two Hot and Cool, and a 180 minute timmer.

View attachment 3025

Knowing how dumb some people can be I'm surprised they were allowed to market such a machine with a setting for Baby Care

 

[Dustydog]

The “ greens” have never said it should be all wind. But just seeing some in eastern England not turning doesn’t mean this elsewhere or off shore were not generating. Being a sunny day the solar farms would have been making a contribution. You can check on the website that gives the percentages generated by each source. High pressure static weather systems do present problems for wind generation. Grateful for our nuclear and French nuclear.

Bit rich though criticising ‘greens’ when driving 250 miles just to recce sites. Couldn’t Google Earth and reviews have shown remoteness?

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

After Storm Elouise a few weeks ago the downed trees along the Northumberland coast was as bad as the 1996 storms. . Maybe the wind farms can’t function in high winds?
BTW you should know by now Hutch is a windmill spotter, armed with his I Spy book🤪

 

[Buckman]

After Storm Elouise a few weeks ago the downed trees along the Northumberland coast was as bad as the 1996 storms. . Maybe the wind farms can’t function in high winds?
BTW you should know by now Hutch is a windmill spotter, armed with his I Spy book🤪

Apparently they have a brake on the windmills to prevent them from turning too fast, but in a hurricane force wind they could be history!

 

[otherclive]

After Storm Elouise a few weeks ago the downed trees along the Northumberland coast was as bad as the 1996 storms. . Maybe the wind farms can’t function in high winds?
BTW you should know by now Hutch is a windmill spotter, armed with his I Spy book🤪

You are right, the wind turbines can be locked above designated wind speeds. But they progressively feather too.


https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms#:~:text= How Do Wind Turbines Survive Severe Storms?,cut-out speed (in this case 55... More

 

[Sam Vimes]

I've mentioned previously that when the wind turbines are constrained - i.e instructed to be turned off - the generating company still gets paid and I believe more than if they were actually working.

To be fair this is equally true of conventional power stations but the constraint payments for them are usually less than those for wind farms.

So, we pay a subsidy on our bills for 'green energy' and we also pay for when they're not working.

 

[Buckman]

Manufacturing companies pay for energy to be put into "Storage" until they need to use it. Sometimes although they paid for the energy they may not use it in that year. This excess is then added to the energy pool for suppliers to make bids remembering that the price paid was the price a year to 18 months previous.

 

[RogerL]

Manufacturing companies pay for energy to be put into "Storage" until they need to use it. Sometimes although they paid for the energy they may not use it in that year. This excess is then added to the energy pool for suppliers to make bids remembering that the price paid was the price a year to 18 months previous.

Just as trading companies pay for currency in advance to eliminate the fluctuations in exchange rates.

 

[Raywood]

It is true that operators are paid for downtime when the windmills are not needed. From what I can gather that makes them very profitable.

 

[Buckman]

It is true that operators are paid for downtime when the windmills are not needed. From what I can gather that makes them very profitable.

That cost is then passed onto the consumer. No wonder our energy costs are so high. Also delays the break even point of the cost of the installation a lot longer when they are not working and by that time they may be exceeding their life span!

 

[Tobes]

That cost is then passed onto the consumer. No wonder our energy costs are so high. Also delays the break even point of the cost of the installation a lot longer when they are not working and by that time they may be exceeding their life span!

It's not the wind generation cost that is keeping costs high. Its the marginal cost of gas for peak demand output.

If we can flatten the curve (use energy more evenly) it gets cheaper. Source.

 

[Sam Vimes]

In 2020 Wind Farm Constrain Payments totalled over £274m.

In 2021 Wind Farm Contraint Payments totalled over £143m

So far this year, 2022, payments of over £75m have been made about half of which was in February

Source of information https://www.ref.org.uk/constraints/indextotals.php

I wish when I had my company I got paid when no work was coming my way.

 

[Tobes]

In 2020 Wind Farm Constrain Payments totalled over £274m.

In 2021 Wind Farm Contraint Payments totalled over £143m

So far this year, 2022, payments of over £75m have been made about half of which was in February

Source of information https://www.ref.org.uk/constraints/indextotals.php

I wish when I had my company I got paid when no work was coming my way.

Just to put that in context, October 2021 saw Gas generation constriant payments of 144 million. Thats one month, with the same cost as one YEAR for wind.

UK gas plant constraint costs up 250% month on month in Oct: Nat Grid ESO

A 250% month on month increase in constraint payments to GB gas fired power plants was behind October s record Balancing Mechanism costs, National Grid Electricity System Operator data showed Dec. 9.

www.spglobal.com

Lets keep focus on what is really expensive here...

 

[Hutch]

In Nigeria, when I was working in the Niger Delta, almost every Gas and oil "Flow station" was flaring oil,or gas that could be harnessed to power villages and towns. Pollution was terrible, gas was harnessed into LPG and oil was collected for refinement. But so much waste.

 

[Tobes]

In Nigeria, when I was working in the Niger Delta, almost every Gas and oil "Flow station" was flaring oil,or gas that could be harnessed to power villages and towns. Pollution was terrible, gas was harnessed into LPG and oil was collected for refinement. But so much waste.

Yep - we have to stop our reliance on fossil and get to renewable.

I saw this at the end of the article I referenced above - I think it talks to what we are saying here.

The UK needed to move towards energy self-sufficiency via renewables and electricity storage to manage electricity prices and constraint management issues, Managing Partner of VEST Energy Aaron Lally told S&P Global Platts.

"If we continue to manage power supply and constraint management through gas generation, UK power prices will remain high with a high correlation to global gas prices," he said.

 

[Buckman]

In Nigeria, when I was working in the Niger Delta, almost every Gas and oil "Flow station" was flaring oil,or gas that could be harnessed to power villages and towns. Pollution was terrible, gas was harnessed into LPG and oil was collected for refinement. But so much waste.

Never knew that. I thought that when they wanted oil or gas they simply cut a hole in the side of the mains pipe?