Energy prices

[Buckman]

Do they? Our gas meter is 46 years old, our electric meter was original until replaced by a smart meter I've never been aware of either being calibrated

It is the responsibility of the supplier to arrange the meter vist at least once very two years, but the visit costs the supplier at least £45 back in 2009 so probably increased by now. as this dips into their profits they ignore it until a consumer complains about excessive consumption.
The consumer is told that if nothing is found to be wrong with the meter, the consumer will need to pay for the MOP visit and that could be up to £100 with all the add ons. As consumer has now been frightened at additional costs, the consumer normally backs off. Supplier continues to bill for incorrect consumption whether higher or lower but generally it is higher.

 

[Buckman]

Is their reading an actual or estimated? Energy providers only do an actual reading about once a year. My online access to energy providers has always shown meter reading history annotated with "actual", "estimated" or "customer" against each reading.

Every energy provider we've ever used has allowed me to increase the DD above their figure - most have allowed me to decrease it below their figure but only with supporting evidence.

We have a Smart meter so reading should be spot on. On checking my BGAS account it reflects that we have used under £50 of electric for month of Feb. Working out our consumption plus standing charge for the past month they are out by nearly £160!
I am not sure when we can expect the credit from our previous supplier to reflect in our new BGAS account as word has it that it could take up to 6 months. If BGAS cannot manage why do they take on an additional 77,000 customers when they cannot even manage their previous take over.
I am also wondering why when an energy company goes bust, its customers always seem to default to BGAS and not one of the other suppliers?

 

[Beachball]

With the kit I have, namely a 13Amp plug in power meter thingy, I think I could find hints of a massive 50% over read.
Basically, with that plugged in to the freezer, or some other biggish consumer, and everything else put off, take comparative readings whilst out for the day.
As said a 50% over read should very quickly be apparent.

A smart meter might get back to a meter change out, but in itself will make no difference to the real amount of power being used, well just a wee bit more to power it.

With meters legally having to be changed or somehow calibrated periodically, is there any real amount of evidence these things do have any history of over recording?

When we brought our bungalow in 2016 our gas meter 58 years old and electric meter original and we had them replaced by a smart meter never been aware of them calibrated.

 

[otherclive]

Buckman, the point in my post that is the most pertinent re energy consumption is not to overlook those things sapping power over very extended periods, the time itself can be the killer not necessarily just the power, as energy is kWh.

Great that you can have your freezer in the garden shed re its energy use, it's not a solution I could sell here, ever, and the amount of opening and closing the outside door might largely offset our overall energy use from the freezers savings. Plus, without doubt it would be me, getting chilled to the marrow and wet popping down there!

And could be very hot in there in summer too.

 

[JTQ]

Do they? Our gas meter is 46 years old, our electric meter was original until replaced by a smart meter I've never been aware of either being calibrated

From Googling this morningin response to comment here, I can't find any legal requirement to recalibrate or change out for a certified in calibration meter.
However, as said, in our case we were told it was a legal requirement ours were to be changed, so gave the contractor access to do so.
In the more recent case, it was "nice" to be changed to digital readout meters, but still on the meters, not smart.

 

[ProfJohnL]

You can be very sure the design and manufacture of both gas and electric meters are very closely managed, and each meter will be calibrated finely before it leaves the manufacturer. The standards applied to these are quite strict, and because of weights an measures.

It is certainly possible that an official meter is inaccurate, and there have been verified reports of where a meter has been over recording energy usage, but its very rare, and I doubt any plug in meter reading would be taken as a reliable evidence of over charging, but it might be corroborative evidence to trigger a calibration check by the power company.

Modern life now seems to revolve around masses of electronics and technology. So many appliances you buy these days need power, and may come with "Wall Wart" or plug in power supplies.

It can be a wake up call if you were to accurately check the amount of power some appliances or their power supplies actually consume even when "Turned Off" USB or phone chargers for example if they feel warm to teh touch when they've been disconnected for more than 30 min, then its fair bet they're actually consuming a few watts of energy.

Now if they are in a room hat being used, then the waste heat is not actually being wasted, its helping to heat the room, but if its in a bedroom or a garage or any other normally cooler room, those watts of power are being wasted, and it's costing you money. The obvious thing is to unplug them when they're not being used, but often the sockets are inaccessible so they're left plugged in and turned on.

Our cat prefers to drink moving water, and my wife decided to get a water fountain for him. This stood in the corner continually running its small AC motor driven pump from a plug in transformer. I noticed how warm the transformer was, so I measure its power consumption, and it was continually drawing 10W. in five days that over 1kWh of energy. I had a spare infraRed motion detector from an old flood light, and I have set that up to trigger the pump only when the cat comes near. The transformer no longer gets warm.

I also had an electric kettle (from ALDI) which had temperature settings from 40C to 100C. This was useful for a variety of purposes such as only heating water to 70C for hot water bottles or 90C to prevent it scalding coffee beans etc. But I discovered that when its on its base and even when not heating its consumed about 7W. Our electricity supplier had supplier several years ago had distributed a number of power saving devices, and one of them was a plug in 30min timer. I now use this with the kettle so it's really off now most of the day.

Other devices like a multiway socket strip which has one designated "master" 13A socket and a number of "Slave" sockets, and the slaves are only powered when the appliance plugged into the master socket is turned on and drawing power. These are great for things like TV and ancillaries like DVD players, Computers and monitor or routers, printers etc, and so on Hi-Fi.

Another solution is to use smart plugs which can be linked to WI FI or separate radio controlled switching, for things like lighting or even power device like heaters.

One of the surprises many people have when they look at power usage is how much is used on lighting. LED lighting is definitely far more efficient than older technologies but even so lighting is often used for long periods, and that means even the meager power usage adds up.

 

[otherclive]

By law a domestic meter should be checked at least once every 2 years. Older meters were notorious for giving incorrect readings.

They don’t even come to read it at anytime in the last three years. So if that is the law I suspect most companies are non compliant.

 

[Buckman]

When we brought our bungalow in 2016 our gas meter 58 years old and electric meter original and we had them replaced by a smart meter never been aware of them calibrated.

You have a Smart meter so no need to visit as can be calibrated remotely.

 

[Buckman]

You can be very sure the design and manufacture of both gas and electric meters are very closely managed, and each meter will be calibrated finely before it leaves the manufacturer. The standards applied to these are quite strict, and because of weights an measures.

It is certainly possible that an official meter is inaccurate, and there have been verified reports of where a meter has been over recording energy usage, but its very rare, and I doubt any plug in meter reading would be taken as a reliable evidence of over charging, but it might be corroborative evidence to trigger a calibration check by the power company.

When I worked in the energy industry we dealt only with business premises and we would get an average of at least 1-2 requests a month. These requests were then passed on the MOP who had installed the metering.

We were only a small company with under 5000 business customers so a big supplier probably may have more requests a month as they would have domestic and business consumers. Most cases were that the metering was over reading or simply stopped.

Obviously this does not apply to HH metering where an issue will be picked up very quickly.

 

[otherclive]

We have a Smart meter so reading should be spot on. On checking my BGAS account it reflects that we have used under £50 of electric for month of Feb. Working out our consumption plus standing charge for the past month they are out by nearly £160!
I am not sure when we can expect the credit from our previous supplier to reflect in our new BGAS account as word has it that it could take up to 6 months. If BGAS cannot manage why do they take on an additional 77,000 customers when they cannot even manage their previous take over.
I am also wondering why when an energy company goes bust, its customers always seem to default to BGAS and not one of the other suppliers?

British Gas were required by Ofgem to take on customers from failed providers, as were others of the big six. Together Energy dumped 176000 on British Gas early this year Since 2021 when companies started to fail British Gas have an extra 700000 customers. That’s an awful lot of extra administration to manage.

 

[Parksy]

There have been three seperate but entirely similar discussions concerning issues surrounding the supply and cost of energy posted on this message board.
It's unfortunate that this happened, it's much better if similar discussions which take place at the same time all use one thread.
I've merged the three threads into this one now.
Apologies if individuals have lost track of their particular viewpoint from the three seperate threads, but this is what happens when multiple threads on broadly the same topic are started.
This thread is the only existing one now about energy supply and costs.
Any other similar threads about energy which run simultaneously will be locked.

 

[RogerL]

We have a Smart meter so reading should be spot on. On checking my BGAS account it reflects that we have used under £50 of electric for month of Feb. Working out our consumption plus standing charge for the past month they are out by nearly £160!
I am not sure when we can expect the credit from our previous supplier to reflect in our new BGAS account as word has it that it could take up to 6 months. If BGAS cannot manage why do they take on an additional 77,000 customers when they cannot even manage their previous take over.
I am also wondering why when an energy company goes bust, its customers always seem to default to BGAS and not one of the other suppliers?

They don't default to BGAS - they're spread around - when Avro went bust last September we were transferred to Octopus, which was fortunate as they have a good customer service record.

This web page shows where recent bust companies' customers have been transferred to What happens if your energy supplier goes bust | Ofgem

 

[Raywood]

The basic problem with many of the companies that went down was they were undercapitalised and often had very poor back room operations. Octopus was one of the recent start ups, but before they started they made sure they had the capital needed and produced a very efficient computer system which they sell for other firms use and help offset the losses elsewhere. They also have an international spread now to support the UK business plus electric car hook ups.
Firms often did have major problems when they took on a failed business, as the systems were often not up to the job and it took could weeks and a lot of staff time to sort it out.

 

[ProfJohnL]

You have a Smart meter so no need to visit as can be calibrated remotely.

From what I know of calibrating scientific equipment, I can (edit CANT) see how a household meter could be calibrated remotely. To do a calibration you need precise control of the variable being measured, and that can't be achieved remotely.

Did you mean it can be read remotely?

 

[Buckman]

From what I know of calibrating scientific equipment, I can see how a household meter could be calibrated remotely. To do a calibration you need precise control of the variable being measured, and that can't be achieved remotely.

Did you mean it can be read remotely?

From what I remember they can calibrate it remotely. They can change the status of the meter from E7 to standard rate remotely. If they can do that remotely then calibrating remotely should not be an aissue with a Smart meter. After all they would be doing exactly the same thing.

 

[JTQ]

From what I remember they can calibrate it remotely. They can change the status of the meter from E7 to standard rate remotely. If they can do that remotely then calibrating remotely should not be an aissue with a Smart meter. After all they would be doing exactly the same thing.

But where is the "known" amount of energy used verified?

 

[ProfJohnL]

From what I remember they can calibrate it remotely. They can change the status of the meter from E7 to standard rate remotely. If they can do that remotely then calibrating remotely should not be an aissue with a Smart meter. After all they would be doing exactly the same thing.

That only proves it can switch between rates, its not evidence of accurate measurement.

 

[Buckman]

That only proves it can switch between rates, its not evidence of accurate measurement.

I said that they can calibrate a meter remotely, but cannot repair a meter remotely as that is different if it is over reading. A secondary device similar to a meter needs o be fitted.
I do not recall any of the Smart meters we fitted having an issue with over reading, but it may have happened however at the time they were new to the market. Unfortunately I can only rely on past experience.

 

[Buckman]

But where is the "known" amount of energy used verified?

Calibration is different to issues with excessive usage. They can check remotely whether the Smart meter is working within its set parameters and if necessary recalibrate it remotely.

 

[JTQ]

Calibration is different to issues with excessive usage. They can check remotely whether the Smart meter is working within its set parameters and if necessary recalibrate it remotely.

Quite clearly, we have a very different understanding of what "calibrating" meters used as measuring equipment, actually involves.
To me, here it is validating its accuracy to measure whatever it meters, not change the scaling of what it measures.

 

[Buckman]

Quite clearly, we have a very different understanding of what "calibrating" meters used as measuring equipment, actually involves.
To me, here it is validating its accuracy to measure whatever it meters, not change the scaling of what it measures.

There can be different understandings of calibration when it comes to Smart meters. To calibrate is generally to check or adjust the settings of an instrument i.e. an electronic meter with a tool which in this case could be a computer on the other side of the world. It checks that everything is working within its parameters however this will not reflect incorrect readings as the computer does not know if the consumer is using more than normal.

They have never do calibration checks on meters whether analogue or Smart and have not done so in the past although part of the criteria is that it should be done every two years. Waste of time and money to the supplier and MOP as it requires two or more visits by the MOP so can work out expensive.

The supplier for obvious reasons prefers to wait until a consumer complains about excessive usage due to an issue with readings. A type of secondary meter is then fitted by the MOP to validate readings on the original meter. On the second visit about a month later the MOP compares readings to see if there is any discrepancies. If there are any discrepancies then the MOP arranges for the meter to be exchanged on a third visit.

They do not or never used to recalibrate the existing meter as that may cause further issues at a later stage if customer complains again. Electronics can at times be a funny thing as most of us have probably found out at one time or the other. If the meter is faulty the MOP bears the cost and not the consumer or supplier. This is paid for out of the standing charge.

The MOP, Data Collected and Data Aggregator then work out what the average monthly usage for consumption should have been before the meter went faulty. They look for a spike which gives an approximately idea of when the meter went faulty. The customer is then credited with any difference.

This is what happened when I worked in the industry, but things change so fast that it may now be out of date to a degree.

 

[Hutch]

Sorry Buckman, you are writing a lot of Rubbish. The meter to be calibrated, has to be compared to a " Master" unit, this cannot be done remotely. As you need the input to the meter, be it electricity, water or gas, to go through the " Master" unit and also the unit being calibrated.

 

[JTQ]

Sorry Buckman, you are writing a lot of Rubbish. The meter to be calibrated, has to be compared to a " Master" unit, this cannot be done remotely. As you need the input to the meter, be it electricity, water or gas, to go through the " Master" unit and also the unit being calibrated.

I think in fairness to Buckman we are coming at this from a scientific/engineering background where “calibration” has a far more restricted definition, one based around verifying the precision, whereas outside our field, simply rescaling is it seems being credited as calibrating.

Here, the OP's concern is if the meter is reading accurately, aligning with our take on being in calibration.

 

[Jcloughie]

There have been three seperate but entirely similar discussions concerning issues surrounding the supply and cost of energy posted on this message board.
It's unfortunate that this happened, it's much better if similar discussions which take place at the same time all use one thread.
I've merged the three threads into this one now.
Apologies if individuals have lost track of their particular viewpoint from the three seperate threads, but this is what happens when multiple threads on broadly the same topic are started.
This thread is the only existing one now about energy supply and costs.
Any other similar threads about energy which run simultaneously will be locked.

My topic was deliberately started with a different emphasis. Merging it has lost the essence of my question. However. my topic had very quickly shifted to be about conservation of energy which is no doubt why you merged.

My OP was asking about a third party and was about validating to check for overcharging. Now when I refer to that third party, it will be lost on the reader.


Re calibration. We have lived here for 40 years, it’s not happened yet.

They could follow the advice given by CA and have their supplier check the meter. There may be a charge if the meter is found to be accurate, but the supplier has to declare their charges upfront. But the five day window would be useful to get a quick assessment.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...eter/find-out-if-your-energy-meter-is-faulty/

I think they tried that last year. But I will need to check with them as to the result. This is why I am suggesting they request a smart meter. The have nothing to loose. If their bills remain the same then it demonstrates the problem is most likely to do with their usage. If the bills drop, good news, also they may be ably to claim back overcharging from previous years.

John

 

[Buckman]

Sorry Buckman, you are writing a lot of Rubbish. The meter to be calibrated, has to be compared to a " Master" unit, this cannot be done remotely. As you need the input to the meter, be it electricity, water or gas, to go through the " Master" unit and also the unit being calibrated.

Have it which ever way you want, but I know I am correct! If it makes you happy to accept your version then I am happy for you.