EV Towing

[Raywood]

I am not convinced that any EV has a range we would accept. If I remember the last tow car awards there was nothing that would manage more than 135 miles and to be safe I suppose that would mean never going past 120 miles and on a bad day against a head wind even less.
Until range improves I cannot see a reason to buy an EV if towing is involved except possibly for the likes of farmers who would be doing far less mileage on a charge at the moment.
I have certainly been looking at hybrids though, as there are a few that look decent and might take the plunge at some time.

 

[otherclive]

I thought EVs used fossil fuel to re-generate their batteries? I would have thought that with EVs being so heavy that they would cause damage to roads plus tyre and brake wear being higher than with an ICE vehicle.

I am not disputing that the end product, the EV itself, is more environmentally friendly, but it is the journey to that goal that affects the environment just like an ICE vehicle.

EVS have regenerative braking and use brakes less than ICE. My daughters SC Corolla has different levels of regeneration that she can set.

 

[Dustydog]

Here’s a couple of pics of my sons new Vivaro .
The engine looks more complicated than my Touareg😜😜

 

[Tobes]

I thought EVs used fossil fuel to re-generate their batteries? I would have thought that with EVs being so heavy that they would cause damage to roads plus tyre and brake wear being higher than with an ICE vehicle.

I am not disputing that the end product, the EV itself, is more environmentally friendly, but it is the journey to that goal that affects the environment just like an ICE vehicle.

EVs use whatever is the grid mix to recharge. You don't put any fuel in an EV, you plug it into the mains.

EVs are heavier than their full ICE counterparts, but most as always YMMV. A few examples.

Mini Cooper S kerb weight 1,250kg
Mini Cooper electric kerb weight 1,440kg

Volvo xc40 recharge twin engine electric 2207kg
Volvo xc40 B4 Auto AWD 1766kg

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2013 CRD 3L v6 Limited Kerb Weight 2403kg
Volvo XC90 2005 D5 auto 2033kg

I just replaced all 4 tyres on mine after 23,600 miles. Thats the most I have EVER got from a set of tyres, on any car. Its about 8,000 miles more than my XC90. My brake pads are about 5% worn. They will likely do 100k miles.

 

[Dustydog]

Australian Lithium . Well it is worth reading this. Not sure how long the supplies will last but note how the selling price has risen. The second link explains some of the issues in South America, China may be similar I am told
No gain without pain as the doc used to say

How Australia became the world's greatest lithium supplier

As demand soars for EVs and clean energy storage, Australia is rising to meet much of the world's demand for lithium. How can we source this lithium sustainably?

www.bbc.com

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future


]

 

[Buckman]

EVs use whatever is the grid mix to recharge. You don't put any fuel in an EV, you plug it into the mains.

EVs are heavier than their full ICE counterparts, but most as always YMMV. A few examples.

Mini Cooper S kerb weight 1,250kg
Mini Cooper electric kerb weight 1,440kg

Volvo xc40 recharge twin engine electric 2207kg
Volvo xc40 B4 Auto AWD 1766kg

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2013 CRD 3L v6 Limited Kerb Weight 2403kg
Volvo XC90 2005 D5 auto 2033kg

I just replaced all 4 tyres on mine after 23,600 miles. Thats the most I have EVER got from a set of tyres, on any car. Its about 8,000 miles more than my XC90. My brake pads are about 5% worn. They will likely do 100k miles.

Thanks Tobes. I think you understood what I meant about fossil fuel allowing EVs to recharge. On my previous 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee tyres had done well over 20k and still had a lot of tread.

On my current 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee purchased in Aug 2022 the rear tyres had over 3mm of tread at 35k and were still the original tyres. Going by the date stamp on the tyres, the front tyres were replaced in 2021 and I am assuming mileage was in excess of 20k when replaced.

On my previous 2012 Jeep the front brakes were replaced twice within 45k, but when I sold that Jeep at 70k the front brakes were close to need replacing. Seems front brakes on heavy vehicles are not long lasting? From previous posts it seems that brakes on EVs will last a very long time.

Just to add when driving I anticipate in advance when I may have to slow down and brake and generally I use the engine initially as a brake. Obviously this would not apply in emergency situations.

Our 1996 Corolla purchased in 2011 with 90k on the clock has now done 120k and it seems that the brakes have only been replaced once. Flew through its MOT in Sept last year.

 

[Jcloughie]

At that time I don't doubt we will run only one car. The car we run will be smaller than the current cars. It is likely that car will be an EV.

This a position we are at right now and consequently are selling the Volvo tow car for a new MG. We could have had an EV version for about £9000 more. (That's a lot of fuel). Or a low mileage 2 year old for about the same price as the new ICE version .

It has a 163 mile range, so probably 125 real world. This would do us for 95% of the time. But a few times a year we go for a journey of about 250 miles. We don't look forward to the stress which it MAY cause, having to find charging points.

But Truly thank the pioneers who take the plunge.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

It seems the Germans have been working hard on carbon-neutral clean versions of synthetic petrol and diesel and are threatening to block EU legislation unless IC vehicles using e-fuel are permitted to continue production/sale indefinitely.

Germany to abstain on combustion engine ban without e-fuel proposal - Euractiv

Germany will abstain in the final vote on the EU's de-facto ban on new petrol or diesel cars as of 2035 unless the EU Commission proposes how new combustion engine cars can be registered if they run exclusively on e-fuels.

www.euractiv.com

Carbon neutral is connected but technically its a different target to emissions control. The problem is the actual emissions from running any IC engine have a much wider cocktail of pollutants than just CO2. So whilst using synthetic fuel may not alter the balance of CO2, it will still produce the NOX and other nasties caused by combusting carbon based fuels under pressure.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I thought EVs used fossil fuel to re-generate their batteries?

Pure EV's will use grid electricity to recharge, and that depends on where you live as to the mix of fuel sources used to generate the electricity.

Hybrids will may have a number ways to recharge the battery, some will use regenerative braking, and some might also use the engine to bulk charge the battery.

PHEV's use mains power to bulk charge the battery but may also use the processes used by the Hybrids.

I would have thought that with EVs being so heavy that they would cause damage to roads plus tyre and brake wear being higher than with an ICE vehicle.

All these points have been extensively explained and proven several times previously, and yet you continue to perpetuate these inaccuracies.

I am not disputing that the end product, the EV itself, is more environmentally friendly, but it is the journey to that goal that affects the environment just like an ICE vehicle.

Not quite, yes both ICE and EV's do have an impact on the environment, but that impact is different, and over time EV's have less impact which is why they are overall a better prospect from an environmental proposition.

 

[Buckman]

Pure EV's will use grid electricity to recharge, and that depends on where you live as to the mix of fuel sources used to generate the electricity.

Hybrids will may have a number ways to recharge the battery, some will use regenerative braking, and some might also use the engine to bulk charge the battery.

PHEV's use mains power to bulk charge the battery but may also use the processes used by the Hybrids.



All these points have been extensively explained and proven several times previously, and yet you continue to perpetuate these inaccuracies.



Not quite, yes both ICE and EV's do have an impact on the environment, but that impact is different, and over time EV's have less impact which is why they are overall a better prospect from an environmental proposition.

Just in case you missed it, Tobes replied giving the correct answers. Is it a heinous sin to make the same statements which one considers to be correct, but are disputed without proof? I am glad that you are happy with your EV and now have indepth of its workings.

 

[otherclive]

Here’s a couple of pics of my sons new Vivaro .
The engine looks more complicated than my Touareg😜😜

Hardly a thing of beauty like the Cosworth engine in your other post.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Nobodys mentioned the issue off battery disposal. If my son-in laws EV is anythng to go by the battery life is about half that what you'd get from a diesel car.

 

[otherclive]

Nobodys mentioned the issue off battery disposal. If my son-in laws EV is anythng to go by the battery life is about half that what you'd get from a diesel car.

Toyota are giving 15 year warranty on battery, but of course in that time there will be deterioration in charge capacity. But it’s relatively early days in the technology and I’m sure that businesses will be established to offer non OEM batteries whilst the original is recycled or refurbished if possible. Nissan does it in US

 

[Sam Vimes]

Not sure about the 15 years but here in New Zealand Toyota guarantee the battery for 8 years or 160,000km. That's not a great distance in my opinion before you need a replacement and of course disposal or recycling of the old one.

I wonder how good the refurbished ones are in comparison to new, in terms of life.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Not sure about the 15 years but here in New Zealand Toyota guarantee the battery for 8 years or 160,000km. That's not a great distance in my opinion before you need a replacement and of course disposal or recycling of the old one.

I wonder how good the refurbished ones are in comparison to new, in terms of life.

That is presuming that at 8 years the battery will need to be replaced, but the statistics show that is far from the case, and most EV batteries are lasting much longer and far better than the nay sayer like to suggest. In almost every new leap of technology there are some failures, and obviously that is a hard pill to swallow if you are one of the few where that arrises.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Nobodys mentioned the issue off battery disposal. If my son-in laws EV is anythng to go by the battery life is about half that what you'd get from a diesel car.

When an EV battery does deteriorate to the point where it is no longer suited to an EV, its not necessarily finished its useful life. There are several companies that are taking ex EV batteries and repurposing them for offline storage systems.

Even if a battery is beyond any use, there are companies who are beginning to specialise in the stripping and recycling of the materials and a very high percentage can be reused.

 

[otherclive]

Not sure about the 15 years but here in New Zealand Toyota guarantee the battery for 8 years or 160,000km. That's not a great distance in my opinion before you need a replacement and of course disposal or recycling of the old one.

I wonder how good the refurbished ones are in comparison to new, in terms of life.

In UK if you have the Toyota serviced at a franchised dealer the battery is covered year on year up to 15 years. But of course toyota had no full EV so they are warranting hybrids.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/owning-1/2021-06/toyota-reduces-standard-warranty-from-five-years-to-three/

 

[otherclive]

Not sure about the 15 years but here in New Zealand Toyota guarantee the battery for 8 years or 160,000km. That's not a great distance in my opinion before you need a replacement and of course disposal or recycling of the old one.

I wonder how good the refurbished ones are in comparison to new, in terms of life.

Just because the NZ warranty is 8 years what makes you think that by then the battery requires replacement? Prius have been around fir a long while and most are on original batteries. But of course being hybrid is different to EV.

 

[otherclive]

We are on this thread, about towing with an EV, not recycling of batteries, I understand that we all deviate at time.

It has relevance because for most caravanners towing is a small part of their mileage. There’s also those who may buy a used EV and then find it’s reduction in battery capacity renders its use as a tow car restricted.

 

[Dustydog]

It has relevance because for most caravanners towing is a small part of their mileage. There’s also those who may buy a used EV and then find it’s reduction in battery capacity renders its use as a tow car restricted.

I have to disagree Clive.
A lot on here have two cars. An extravagance perhaps. One for solo trips , medium journeys etc and one for long duration towing. I really don’t want to enjoy range anxiety nor in truth can most of us afford the cash needed to buy an EV capable of towing long distance non stop. I am sure the day will come with different technologies in batteries , even Hydrogen cells but my wallet just can’t afford it. 😥😥

 

[RogerL]

The actual and usable capacity of any EVs reduces over time, dependent on the depth of discharges and the rate of charging.

Nissan Leaf's have quite a high rate of deterioration, around 50% in 8 year being typical but expert opinion suggests that the Leaf uses an unsophisticated charging system quite unlike models introduced since then so it's unwise to assume that rate of deterioration applies to newer designs - I've seen suggestions that 20% over 8 years is more typical.

It should be remembered that people who buy 8+ year old cars cover much lower annual mileage than those who buy new or nearly new cars so the reduction in capacity may not concern typical buyers.

 

[Hutch]

EVs use whatever is the grid mix to recharge. You don't put any fuel in an EV, you plug it into the mains.

EVs are heavier than their full ICE counterparts, but most as always YMMV. A few examples.

Mini Cooper S kerb weight 1,250kg
Mini Cooper electric kerb weight 1,440kg

Volvo xc40 recharge twin engine electric 2207kg
Volvo xc40 B4 Auto AWD 1766kg

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2013 CRD 3L v6 Limited Kerb Weight 2403kg
Volvo XC90 2005 D5 auto 2033kg

I just replaced all 4 tyres on mine after 23,600 miles. Thats the most I have EVER got from a set of tyres, on any car. Its about 8,000 miles more than my XC90. My brake pads are about 5% worn. They will likely do 100k miles.

The Original tyres on my Santa Fe Hankook K115, managed 42k miles, second set Knokian Weather proof, 38k . I changed my front discs at 60k miles 2nd set of pads. At 86 k miles now Rear pads about 75 % worn and the same on the discs, I have a new set of discs and pads waiting to be fitted when I decide maybe after the summer towing.
Also I am no sloth ,in the SF. I choose tyres for grip not longevity. Present ones are Hankook k117, but I think the next might be Nexus all season.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Just because the NZ warranty is 8 years what makes you think that by then the battery requires replacement? Prius have been around fir a long while and most are on original batteries. But of course being hybrid is different to EV.

We shouldn't equate the warranty period with the life of the battery in this case. That's why warranties for cars usually have a duration and mileage limitation.

Warranties cover defects.

An EV car may well be on its original battery but what really matters is how far it's been driven.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We are on this thread, about towing with an EV, not recycling of batteries, I understand that we all deviate at time.

Perhaps you should direct your comment to the person who raised the issue?

Not sure about the 15 years but here in New Zealand Toyota guarantee the battery for 8 years or 160,000km. That's not a great distance in my opinion before you need a replacement and of course disposal or recycling of the old one.

I wonder how good the refurbished ones are in comparison to new, in terms of life.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I don't consider my posts a major deviation from the subject of towing with an EV. The encouragement to use EVs is bound closely with environmental issues which had been raised earlier. Therefore battery life must also be considered.

Without full knowledge of lithium battteries it occurs to me that one of the considerations I would want to know is would towing a caravan cause the battery life to reduce earlier. Of course this would depend on how far and how often you did this.

It seems there are many considerations to take into account when determining battery life and towing a caravan would I believe have some affect since it may necessitate charging the EV battery more often due to higher discharge when towing. Charging needs to be done with caution to maximise the life cycle. Overuse of rapid charging may cause batttery life to be shortened. Discharging to very low capacity or charging to high capacity is also not considered good.

Don't get me wrong - I believe EV cars have a place - but for me driving and towing with a diesel powered car is always going to be the best solution.

It should be remembered that people who buy 8+ year old cars cover much lower annual mileage than those who buy new or nearly new cars so the reduction in capacity may not concern typical buyers.

Somewhat of generalisation without any evidence I think . People buy cars they can afford. I was still driving and towing with my 10 year old car the same distances as when I first got it.

What does seems a point to me based on those I know with EVs is that it's usually a second car. The first being and ICE.