EV Towing

[Tobes]

Mild Hybrid
Normal Hybrid
Regular Hybrid
Self Charging Hybrid
Plug in Hybrid
Regenerative Hybrid
E Power Hybrid
Etc
Amazing the number of Hybrids. Mind boggling 😜😜

There are really only 3 major variations.
Mild - the electrification is a boost and cannot drive the car alone. Fossil fuel only. Engine has to be running to move.

Regular/ normal / “self-charging - yuk” - has an electric drive train that can run without the ICE being started. Fossil fuel only.

Plug-in hybrid (PHEV) - As above but has a plug that allows the battery to be directly charged from the grid. Can in theory be run indefinitely on electricity alone. Electricity and Fossil fuel.

The Ampera, i3 rex, Outlander, Volvo Twin-engines are all PHEV.

The Nissan is a normal hybrid (fossil fuel only, can run on electric drive from the battery).

 

[Sam Vimes]

This is the Nissan ePower setup compared with a hybrid. Less complexity but there appears to be very little or no range from the battery on its own, so pretty much totally dependent on the ICE. In terms of mpg its still doesn't compete with my diesel Nissan.

One aspect advertised is the quiet running. Perhaps a little misleading but then this is marketing hype. My diesel Qashqai is very quiet as are some of my friends cars of different make. My limited experience of driving an EV noticed that while the car was very quiet when crawling along e.g parking, while in motion the road noise was just as high as many ICE powered cars which drowns out engine noise anyway.

 

[Dustydog]

Seems to me a highly efficient ICE driving a generator with e motors on each wheel is a good set up. The IC 125 locos proved the system works well. Is it not the case that an ICE performs at its best rpm when torque is at its peak. Some will remember the old DAF variomatic where the engine rpm was fairly constant and acceleration achieved via the cone and belt system .

 

[Tobes]

Seems to me a highly efficient ICE driving a generator with e motors on each wheel is a good set up. The IC 125 locos proved the system works well. Is it not the case that an ICE performs at its best rpm when torque is at its peak. Some will remember the old DAF variomatic where the engine rpm was fairly constant and acceleration achieved via the cone and belt system .

“Highly efficient “ is at best 40%. If you are going to the trouble of building a car with a great electric drivetrain designed for all speeds and conditions, why would you not put a bigger battery in (say 10kWh instead of 2kWh that it has), give it 20 to 40 miles range (instead of 4 to 8) and add a plug to charge it over night at home. The complexity is basically the same but it costs less to run and could be actually green. Just seems weird to me🤷‍♂️

 

[Dustydog]

“Highly efficient “ is at best 40%. If you are going to the trouble of building a car with a great electric drivetrain designed for all speeds and conditions, why would you not put a bigger battery in (say 10kWh instead of 2kWh that it has), give it 20 to 40 miles range (instead of 4 to 8) and add a plug to charge it over night at home. The complexity is basically the same but it costs less to run and could be actually green. Just seems weird to me🤷‍♂️

Thankfully Tobes I can say hand on heart all these various designs were not of my making but of scientifically qualified persons🤪🤪🤪
Seriously though I remember the battle of the video cassette systems. VHS won but as we all now know it was not as good as the betamax. Time will tell.

 

[Tobes]

Thankfully Tobes I can say hand on heart all these various designs were not of my making but of scientifically qualified persons🤪🤪🤪
Seriously though I remember the battle of the video cassette systems. VHS won but as we all now know it was not as good as the betamax. Time will tell.

Haha😃. Thing is Dusty, I suspect they were made by the marketing department rather than engineering. I can imagine the conversation. “People like the idea of electric vehicles, but they don't want to charge them. Can you make an electric car that is fuels by petrol?”
The VHS / Betamax thing. People refer to it, but I don’t understand the reference. (We had both a Betamax and a VHS).
VHS won because the market was flooded with VHS players and the rental companies got on board. Is EV Betamax or VHS? What is the other ? Genuine question.

 

[Dustydog]

Tobes
It was Philips.
Betamax was a far better system but marketing and cost allowed VHS to win. Same with the EV and Hybrids,
Best may not win for cost reasons?

 

[Tobes]

Tobes
It was Philips.
Betamax was a far better system but marketing and cost allowed VHS to win. Same with the EV and Hybrids,
Best may not win for cost reasons?

But which is supposed to be VHS, and which Betamax? Hybrids are a dead end because they are fossil fuel based. That’s not marketing or sales or technology. It’s policy. (And at the end it will be economics). The thing is, I don’t see EV as a Betamax / VHS “battle” with ICE. It’s more like land line telephones vs iPhones. Or broadcast TV vs streamed media. The old version does its thing, but the new one is so much more. And until you have had a chance to use one you wonder what all the fuss is about. Then there is a eureka moment, and going back looks like turning the clock back to the last century…
Lots of people don’t like EVs or smart phones for lots of reasons. And that’s fine, but the combustion engine is essentially dead. It just doesn’t know it yet.

 

[RogerL]

Tobes
It was Philips.
Betamax was a far better system but marketing and cost allowed VHS to win. Same with the EV and Hybrids,
Best may not win for cost reasons?

Hybrids are just interim designs - a way of car makers taking advantage without totally retooling their factories - buys them time to get EVs going.

IC will live on for a long time, at least as used cars.

 

[Tobes]

Hybrids are just interim designs - a way of car makers taking advantage without totally retooling their factories - buys them time to get EVs going.

IC will live on for a long time, at least as used cars.

Used - absolutely yes. And specialised applications. Mass market new? It’s on borrowed time.
Hybrid as a retooling buffer? Not sure I buy that. The designs are more complex (not less) than pure EV, and as a result have a much bigger parts bin. That’s harder than retooling for pure EV. Getting the design right or getting the correct supply chain would be much harder and that will take time. But for Nissan, who already make the Leaf and the Ariya, the E-power hybrid is a retrograde step. It’s just weird.

 

[ProfJohnL]

As even tobes will agree one of the most limiting factors to the wholesale swap to EV's is the sketchness of the car charging network and how as yet its not fit for purpose everywhere. so at present I can fully understand how many people genuinely can't make an EV work for them. Things should get better as we move towards the ban on ICe for new car sales in 2030.

A lot of things do need to change, but there is a shedload of development being done to improve EV offerings, such as increased range, lighter,smaller and cheaper batteries, the charging networks are continuing to add new locations all of which will make EV's more accessible to the wider public, and of course the ban itself will force more people to move across.

I personally am very happy with my S/H PHEV, which gives me the benefit of pure EV range for my daily journeys. I only need a smallish battery for this so I saved on the purchase cost and weight compared to an full EV. But the ICE is also there for longer journeys where it can get up to temperature and thus work closer tp its peak efficiency.

My solution won't suit everyone, but as improved EV's and infrastructure spread out EV's will become better options for most people - including caravanners.

 

[otherclive]

Hybrids are just interim designs - a way of car makers taking advantage without totally retooling their factories - buys them time to get EVs going.

IC will live on for a long time, at least as used cars.

The last big technology change did not see any sudden cut off from the outgoing technology. The mass production of ICE commenced in the in 1908 with the Model T. During WW1 there was a mix of horse power and petrol power. By the 1930s petrol power ramped up with cars that more people could afford. Yet by 1955 horses were still being used by our Co-op baker, coalman and recycling executive aka rag and bone man. But there was an electric vehicle, the Kirby and West milk float.


So nearly fifty years after Henry Ford started mass production, and with the technology jumps afforded by two World wars horses were still being used, albeit in minority applications. I think that the difference now between and then is that momentum for change is being driven by more than man’s advancement, it’s the health of the Earth and those that live in it. So changes may occur more rapidly catalysed by governments‘ adoption of international legal obligations.

 

[Tobes]

Yes - I agree Prof. The public charging network has a long way to go. And the available of home charging (council consent for cable gullies), lamp pots charging, local street chargers and cost normalisation for those who have to rely on public charging. They all need to improve - a lot. It’s probably still the biggest barrier to adoption (though cost new and manufacturing capacity are also very significant).

 

[RogerL]

Interestingly, there are reports that prices of used EVs are dropping substantially, 18% in a year - this will encourage more people to make the switch, at least for one of their cars in multi-car households - the downside is that this will push up the PCP rates for new EVs.

 

[Buckman]

The thing is, I don’t see EV as a Betamax / VHS “battle” with ICE. It’s more like land line telephones vs iPhones. Or broadcast TV vs streamed media.

We still require a landline and so do many other people so hardly a comparison, but get your drift. in one way Betamax is the EV and VHS is the ICE. I regard present EVs as the Phillips version of VHS and Betamax if anyone remembers the short lived Phillips format. Broadband TV are still in the majority and will be for many years and that is the way with ICE vehicles.

PS. Although Sony withdrew the Betamax from the domestic market, it was used in broadcasting studios for many years as it was far superior to the VHS system.

 

[otherclive]

As even tobes will agree one of the most limiting factors to the wholesale swap to EV's is the sketchness of the car charging network and how as yet its not fit for purpose everywhere. so at present I can fully understand how many people genuinely can't make an EV work for them. Things should get better as we move towards the ban on ICe for new car sales in 2030.

A lot of things do need to change, but there is a shedload of development being done to improve EV offerings, such as increased range, lighter,smaller and cheaper batteries, the charging networks are continuing to add new locations all of which will make EV's more accessible to the wider public, and of course the ban itself will force more people to move across.

I personally am very happy with my S/H PHEV, which gives me the benefit of pure EV range for my daily journeys. I only need a smallish battery for this so I saved on the purchase cost and weight compared to an full EV. But the ICE is also there for longer journeys where it can get up to temperature and thus work closer tp its peak efficiency.

My solution won't suit everyone, but as improved EV's and infrastructure spread out EV's will become better options for most people - including caravanners.

I support your comments on hybrids as we try to avoid short journeys even in our runabout. A trip to Sainsbury which I can walk in 20 minutes if done by car will see us heading in the opposite direction for a run along the bypass. It then regularly gets used on longer journeys too. That’s why the runabout has 39000 miles since 2017. In the year before I sold the Forester in August 2022 the Forester had only done 3000, it’s replacement though has already done 4000 miles since August 2022, but that’s somewhat artificial given frequent trips to the Midlands.

So having a hybrid with a decent battery range plus engine could be a useful balance for us. But when we decided to buy a new car last August hybrid prices and availability weren't attractive so opted for petrol. But our thoughts for some while have been to go EV in the future, and 2025 has been a date mooted as possibly going down to one car. But given life’s ability to bowl googlies that year isn’t set in stone, although by then the market for EV could see real prices reducing given the entrance into the market of Chinese makes and the recognition by European makers that there have to be affordable models in their range.

 

[Buckman]

But our thoughts for some while have been to go EV in the future, and 2025 has been a date mooted as possibly going down to one car. But given life’s ability to bowl googlies that year isn’t set in stone, although by then the market for EV could see real prices reducing given the entrance into the market of Chinese makes and the recognition by European makers that there have to be affordable models in their range.

That has been our thinking also regarding trading in the Corolla for a hybrid rather than a full blown EV.

At present we do need the Jeep mainly for towing and some winter days. The Corolla is used mainly for shopping trips and popping down to the local store. Although the Corolla is very reliable, it is now 27 years old with 120k on the clock which averages at about 4500 miles a year. Main issue is that it is now too low for us and I have difficulty climbing out of it.

 

[RogerL]

That has been our thinking also regarding trading in the Corolla for a hybrid rather than a full blown EV.

At present we do need the Jeep mainly for towing and some winter days. The Corolla is used mainly for shopping trips and popping down to the local store. Although the Corolla is very reliable, it is now 27 years old with 120k on the clock which averages at about 4500 miles a year. Main issue is that it is now too low for us and I have difficulty climbing out of it.

We bought our petrol Citroen C1 specifically for the shorter journeys, up to 20 miles, to eliminate the short journey damage on the diesel VW Touareg and to reduce our urban emissions as it's fuel consumption is double the Touareg. We do have a vague plan to replace the C1 with an EV as range anxiety wouldn't be an issue but the cost-justification is difficult as it only does 1,000 miles/year. The Touareg is used for longer journeys, towing and touring, about 9,000 miles/year in all.

The obvious candidate to replace the C1 would be an early Nissan Leaf but it's clear that their primitive battery cooling and older battery technology means that the capacity degradation outside warranty is substantially worse than other EVs. The other obvious candidate would be a VW e-Up or their Skoda/Seat sibling but as you point out, climbing out of a low small car is no joke as one gets older - and will only get even worse over time.

A Kia e-Niro would be ideal from a practical point of view but a lot of money for just 1,000 miles/year. We have no plans to replace the Touareg, I'd even run it as a classic car if I live that long!

 

[otherclive]

Wow that C1 is a real gas guzzler. 😱

“We bought our petrol Citroen C1 specifically for the shorter journeys, up to 20 miles, to eliminate the short journey damage on the diesel VW Touareg and to reduce our urban emissions as it's fuel consumption is double the Touareg.” 😂😂😂

 

[Buckman]

Wow that C1 is a real gas guzzler. 😱

“We bought our petrol Citroen C1 specifically for the shorter journeys, up to 20 miles, to eliminate the short journey damage on the diesel VW Touareg and to reduce our urban emissions as it's fuel consumption is double the Touareg.” 😂😂😂

Our old Corolla does about 42mpg urban which isn't double that of the Jeep. 😂

 

[otherclive]

Clearly this owner of a new Defender has managed to afford it by having a plug In capability, and shopping at Lidls too. 😱

 

[Beachball]

My wife cousin brought a VW ID.3 electric car he had a long wait the charger was put in last May last year and it only just arrived he looking forward to taking it for long drive he will keep me updated of his travels

 

[Hutch]

Mild Hybrid
Normal Hybrid
Regular Hybrid
Self Charging Hybrid
Plug in Hybrid
Regenerative Hybrid
E Power Hybrid
Etc
Amazing the number of Hybrids. Mind boggling 😜😜

Let's get to aCl and talk about it over a beer.

 

[Hutch]

But which is supposed to be VHS, and which Betamax? Hybrids are a dead end because they are fossil fuel based. That’s not marketing or sales or technology. It’s policy. (And at the end it will be economics). The thing is, I don’t see EV as a Betamax / VHS “battle” with ICE. It’s more like land line telephones vs iPhones. Or broadcast TV vs streamed media. The old version does its thing, but the new one is so much more. And until you have had a chance to use one you wonder what all the fuss is about. Then there is a eureka moment, and going back looks like turning the clock back to the last century…
Lots of people don’t like EVs or smart phones for lots of reasons. And that’s fine, but the combustion engine is essentially dead. It just doesn’t know it yet.

Except that some of us oldies love the sound of a V8 or V12, going from a burble to 7k Rpm..

 

[Tobes]

Except that some of us oldies love the sound of a V8 or V12, going from a burble to 7k Rpm..

I love the engine note of a V8. I particularly love a Dodge Challenger or Charger and used to always try to hire one in the US on business. But these days, the drive and performance associated with my Polestar makes them feel a bit flat… (I look longingly at the Polestars and Teslas in Hertz instead of the muscle cars now).