EVs changing the face of caravanning.

[Buckman]

I think sites will soon need to provide charging points to allow EV's to charge. The use of the hook up via the caravan could work with hybrids needing only enough for about 30 miles but full EV's would take far too long, In addition the power taken to charge the car would limit the use of other things in the caravan to the point where it would not be worthwhile. Possibly it would only be feasible over night or possibly during the day if you are out and not using the car.
It is possibly more use with a small car towed by a motorhome as it would not need the same amount of power.
The CAMH does allow charging via the caravan but charges for this although I do not know what the take up of this is.

Would that mean reducing the number of pitches available to fit in those charging points for the occasional use plus they will probably need to available to the general public. For a caravan site it may not be a viable option as after all they do not have fuel pumps on sites.
Also people will probably walk back to their caravan while the car is charging and not bother to go back for an hour or two thus hogging the bay. Most people will want to charge their car in the evening, but the site can only accommodate perhaps 3-4 bays.
Rather than have the hassle of an extra function it may be better if the charging points were not installed. As a warden do you really want someone banging on your door stating that someone has left their car parked in the charging bay for over an hour, or the charging point is not working or the cost is not right etc etc.
Good idea but why should any site get involved with the charging of EVs when there is a charging point just down the road?

 

[Tobes]

Would that mean reducing the number of pitches available to fit in those charging points for the occasional use plus they will probably need to available to the general public. For a caravan site it may not be a viable option as after all they do not have fuel pumps on sites.

Additional charging could be offered in the visitor parking area (if the site has such a thing). There is no requirement to make a charger open to the public. Many work place chargers are private.

Also people will probably walk back to their caravan while the car is charging and not bother to go back for an hour or two thus hogging the bay.

Charging on a charger is not hogging a bay - it's using a bay. If the club wanted to impose time limits then doing so as an overstay charge built into the charging fee is simple, effective and commonplace today.

Most people will want to charge their car in the evening, but the site can only accommodate perhaps 3-4 bays.

Depends on the site. I can imagine daytime charging in many sites being useful, though that could also be accommodated on pitch via a hookup (and a meter).

Rather than have the hassle of an extra function it may be better if the charging points were not installed.

Avoiding the issue is not a solution.

As a warden do you really want someone banging on your door stating that someone has left their car parked in the charging bay for over an hour, or the charging point is not working or the cost is not right etc etc.

This can be outsourced. Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons, Lidl, Sainsbury, Booths all have charging options. They don't manage any of them, and some they didn't even pay to be installed.

Good idea but why should any site get involved with the charging of EVs when there is a charging point just down the road?

Because it's a sensible service for the pub to offer it's guests and members?

 

[Buckman]

Additional charging could be offered in the visitor parking area (if the site has such a thing). There is no requirement to make a charger open to the public. Many work place chargers are private.

Charging on a charger is not hogging a bay - it's using a bay. If the club wanted to impose time limits then doing so as an overstay charge built into the charging fee is simple, effective and commonplace today.

Depends on the site. I can imagine daytime charging in many sites being useful, though that could also be accommodated on pitch via a hookup (and a meter).

Avoiding the issue is not a solution.

This can be outsourced. Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons, Lidl, Sainsbury, Booths all have charging options. They don't manage any of them, and some they didn't even pay to be installed.

Because it's a sensible service for the pub to offer it's guests and members?

You are looking at it from the perspective of an EV owner which is understandable and not from the business or practical side of the site which is there to make money or fold.
It does seem you are happy for pitch fees to be increased for a minority. Many sites do not have a visitor parking area.
We all know how selfish some people can be and only care about themselves. Many people travel out and about during the day so why can't they charge their EV while out and about? Even if it is outsourced, will that stop some idiot banging on the warden's door to sort out an issue with the charging point?

 

[Tobes]

You are looking at it from the perspective of an EV owner which is understandable and not from the business or practical side of the site which is there to make money or fold.

I agree. And when all cars are EV, the club will need charging to enable their members to use their sites - or fold. This is not a short term issue or plan. It's very much long term and about the future of the club, and many other businesses - like hotels and B&Bs

It does seem you are happy for pitch fees to be increased for a minority.

Heeeeyyyy - Where did I suggest that? I suggested metering of electricity would be a good way to allow pitch charging - a topic well covered in various threads. I am not a freeloader, I am happy to pay for my usage and feel other should pay for theirs too - for whatever use.

Many sites do not have a visitor parking area.

Yes - I pointed that out. If they don't then slow, metered, on pitch charging works fine.

We all know how selfish some people can be and only care about themselves. Many people travel out and about during the day so why can't they charge their EV while out and about?

Well - I would hope and expect that for many, the site is the destination. "out and about" may be walking, cycling, public transport, or just staying in watching the world go by with a mug or glass of something delicious. For many, on pitch charging via hookup is fine and metered allows the most flexible use of the available power while ensuring a fair price for the club.
For a few, especially anyone touring, 12 hours on a 10A feed will only fill 1/2 a battery, and may not be fast enough where 6 or 7 hours on a 7.2kW fast charger will give a full charge. Price accordingly.

Even if it is outsourced, will that stop some idiot banging on the warden's door to sort out an issue with the charging point?

Nothing - but there are always idiots. If you build a better solution, they will build a better idiot.

 

[Buckman]

Installation of the charging point is not free so somehow they need to recoup that cost. I am assuming that they cannot charge more for a kw than what they pay as per the regulations otherwise they need to register as a supplier and at that point I would think the charging station needs to be open to the public.

BTW why do you think that EVs will become mainstream as there may be other better solutions in the near future. Should sites install LPG pumps for those that have hydrogen or LPG cars?

 

[Tobes]

Installation of the charging point is not free

That depends on the business model.

so somehow they need to recoup that cost.

Aggree - cost of charging covers this.

I am assuming that they cannot charge more for a kw than what they pay as per the regulations otherwise they need to register as a supplier and at that point I would think the charging station needs to be open to the public.

No - electricity supply for EVs is exluded from the supplier regulation. There is a specific section on that. EVs are not deemed fixed, so you can charge what you like. And there is no regulation that requires paid for chargers be public.

BTW why do you think that EVs will become mainstream as there may be other better solutions in the near future.

Because combustion cars are end of sale in 2030/2035.

Should sites install LPG pumps for those that have hydrogen or LPG cars?

What hydrogen cars? They have been available commercially for longer than EVs and yet there are almost none. AFAIK you can't buy a new LPG car, and they would too be phased out of sale in 2030/2035. Why would the club invest in a dead technology?

 

[Hutch]

Installation of the charging point is not free so somehow they need to recoup that cost. I am assuming that they cannot charge more for a kw than what they pay as per the regulations otherwise they need to register as a supplier and at that point I would think the charging station needs to be open to the public.

BTW why do you think that EVs will become mainstream as there may be other better solutions in the near future. Should sites install LPG pumps for those that have hydrogen or LPG cars?

I think EV will become main stream. LPG and Hydrogen vechicles, do not take as long to refill as EV take to full recharge. South Medows in Belford, Northumberland, have installed Charging points, as the nearest charge point is in Alnwick, 15 mile from South Medows.

 

[otherclive]

Here’s a piece about the Ford Mustang EV that holds the Guinness record for low overall power consumption on the Lands End John O Groats journey. Only two recharging stops required. The drivers are renowned Hypermilers but it wasn’t towing. However their approach is adoptable for any vehicle be it EV or ICE.

https://evpowered.co.uk/news/ford-mustang-mach-e-sets-john-ogroats-to-lands-end-efficiency-record/

 

[ProfJohnL]

Would that mean reducing the number of pitches available to fit in those charging points for the occasional use plus they will probably need to available to the general public.

Whether having a EV chargers on a caravan site will reduce the number of pitches depends entirely on the design and space of the site, and what might apply to one site does not necessarily apply to all sites.

It is perfectly possible for an EV charger to be restricted to caravanners using the site, It does not have to be available to the general public.

For a caravan site it may not be a viable option as after all they do not have fuel pumps on sites.

A totally irrelevant suggestion!

Also people will probably walk back to their caravan while the car is charging and not bother to go back for an hour or two thus hogging the bay. Most people will want to charge their car in the evening, but the site can only accommodate perhaps 3-4 bays.

Rather than have the hassle of an extra function it may be better if the charging points were not installed.

This problem is already an issue for public chargers across the country. It's possible to limit the time the car can be charged for, and if the car remains connected beyond that period a penalty payment is required to release the cable.

As a warden do you really want someone banging on your door stating that someone has left their car parked in the charging bay for over an hour, or the charging point is not working or the cost is not right etc etc.
Good idea but why should any site get involved with the charging of EVs when there is a charging point just down the road?

If wardens don't want any of the possible problems of running a site they shouldn't take the job on. And where customers are likely to be stopping over night or longer, then as EV take increases they need to seriously consider the convenience of their customers. Even if there is a local public charger down the road.

 

[Buckman]

I do not understand why a majority should be marginalised for a few who think their self interests come first?

 

[Tobes]

I do not understand why a majority should be marginalised for a few who think their self interests come first?

I don’t understand who you think is being marginalised?

 

[Parksy]

This thread is degenerating into the same pro versus anti EV argument that's been aired elsewhere on this forum.
If there are no constructive or relevant points to be made I'll lock this thread because the same old argument is going nowhere except in circles.

 

[otherclive]

I do not understand why a majority should be marginalised for a few who think their self interests come first?

I don’t see anyone being selfish re EV charging. After all the sites provide other services to caravan, motorhomes or campers, so why shouldn’t EV charging be just another service. There will obviously be limits to what a site can provide but I don’t see anyone being marginalised. Given that site are unlikely in the near to medium term to be able to meet everyone’s need for charging it’s likely that owners of EVs will probably recharge when they are out and about.

 

[Boff]

I do not understand why a majority should be marginalised for a few who think their self interests come first?

@Buckman please explain.
Or we might be forced to think I was just to provoke an argument to get a thread on a subject you don’t agree with shutdown.

 

[JTQ]

Back on theme, does not the thread's OP prove that with EV neither EHUs or EV recharging points will be needed on caravan sites sometime in the future, at least for caravanners as any mains energy needed is simply drawn from the EV instead?

 

[Tobes]

Back on theme, does not the thread's OP prove that with EV neither EHUs or EV recharging points will be needed on caravan sites sometime in the future, at least for caravanners as any mains energy needed is simply drawn from the EV instead?

It's an excellent question JTQ. Right now, I think the value of being able to run the caravan from the car is marginal. There are a few appliances that can be used when off-grid that would not have been usable. The challenge being, when you are off grid, you probably had to drive quite a way to get there, depleting your car battery and you need to reserve some energy to get back.

But maybe what this does is demonstrate the way forward. I think it is very easy to imagine a world where rapid charging facilities have propagated far more than they have today (maybe even with chargers designed for towing) that could allow arrival on site with a relatively full charge. At that point, using say 10-15kWh a day of electricty could get you a 3-5 day stay before you have to go and refill.

And I think the possibility is also there to have caravans (trailers) with built in batteries and motors both to assist the car, and provide some off grid power when the car is not connected.

Wouldn't it be cool to be able to drive to site, park the van and set up, then drain your car battery into the caravan battery to give you say 5 days of off grid living, then recharge your car at a local rapid before returning to the van again.

All sorts of problems to be overcome, but also all sorts of benefits to be derived.

 

[Buckman]

Back on theme, does not the thread's OP prove that with EV neither EHUs or EV recharging points will be needed on caravan sites sometime in the future, at least for caravanners as any mains energy needed is simply drawn from the EV instead?

Thank you an excellent response!

 

[JTQ]

I think it is very easy to imagine a world where rapid charging facilities have propagated far more than they have today

Yes, all for innovating.
I envisage a new bit of road "artwork", here a square with a yellow lightening icon, they already have the paint in stock; we drive over it without even easing the "throttle" [or is that joystick?] and wow the charge goes from whatever to 100%
My pacemaker is probably blown straight out of my chest, but that's but a teething issue to sort.

 

[Tobes]

Yes, all for innovating.
I envisage a new bit of road "artwork", here a square with a yellow lightening icon, they already have the paint in stock; we drive over it without even easing the "throttle" [or is that joystick?] and wow the charge goes from whatever to 100%
My pacemaker is probably blown straight out of my chest, but that's but a teething issue to sort.

- I wish - I don't think wireless rapid charging will ever get quite that fast, but stationary wireless rapid charging has been demonstrated, and Cornell University are working on mobile wireless charging!

View: https://youtu.be/8BQUIRBMSWA

 

[Boff]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vZeUgRFI8


This is an interview with the boss of Osprey who are a charging network. It is interesting because he doesn’t paint the current charging situation as all sweetness and light, he predicts problem this summer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....
And I think the possibility is also there to have caravans (trailers) with built in batteries and motors both to assist the car, and provide some off grid power when the car is not connected.
....
All sorts of problems to be overcome, but also all sorts of benefits to be derived.

Yes indeed all sorts of problems to overcome, but specifically related to the idea of batteries and motors to assist the tow car, presently in the UK that cannot legally happen. You should have seen the difficulties of getting "bendy busses" allowed.

But who knows..........

 

[Tobes]

Yes indeed all sorts of problems to overcome, but specifically related to the idea of batteries and motors to assist the tow car, presently in the UK that cannot legally happen. You should have seen the difficulties of getting "bendy busses" allowed.

But who knows..........

Absolutely - this would need new legislation and a whole new category of vehicle defining. It's a very long term solution to a problem!

 

[JezzerB]

For info only we've just returned from Eye Kettleby lakes. They've had two Alfa 22kw chargers installed in their car park. We took the ev as swmbo was working nearby. 40p KW. One worked one didn't. Reported it via the phone as EK make it v clear they are not their responsibility. So I'm assuming they didn't pay too much for the install.

 

[otherclive]

There’s work being sponsored by various bodies to produce liquid fuels for vehicles and aircraft by using hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Porsche are investing significantly in the technolgy.

Here’s a link showing one such project based in Chile. The technology has been around for a long while. It must be old, as even I was involved in it in an other era.

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.

edition.cnn.com

 

[Tobes]

There’s work being sponsored by various bodies to produce liquid fuels for vehicles and aircraft by using hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Porsche are investing significantly in the technolgy.

Here’s a link showing one such project based in Chile. The technology has been around for a long while. It must be old, as even I was involved in it in an other era.

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.

edition.cnn.com

It’s doable, but volumes are low and it’s crazy expensive. My guess is this will be a specialist fuel in future for classic cars and motorsport. Other than being CO2 neutral, it’s doesn’t remove any of the other tail pipe pollutants (soot and NOx) so will still be subject to clean air zone constraints.