Flummoxed

[Parksy]

What should have been a wonderful weekend on a listed camping and caravan site located near Tewkesbury and attached to a pub turned to disaster from Friday onwards........................
....................If a site is listed as a camping and caravan club site, not CS or proper site, surely it has to maintain some sort of standard otherwise what is the point in having the sign by the entrance. We are considering sending a complaint to the C & CC and also one to Tewkesbury council as caravan planning regulations were well and truly bypassed by the owners.

What a shame that your weekend with the nice weather was ruined in this way Surfer, I'd have been livid

Sites attached to pubs can sometimes be a bit hit and miss because the site owner is often the pub landlord who is so busy trying to scrape a living from the pub that the site is neglected or badly run. Much as I enjoy pubs I now avoid camping on pub sites due to similar experiences in the past.
The C&CC has no jurisdiction over 'listed' sites, a listed site is a commercial site that has advertised in the Big Sites Book and is licensed by the local authority.
I'm guessing that if the site had 8 ehu points it was not a 5 van certified site but it the site owner was doubling up on ehu's then you would not be receiving the amperage that you'd paid for for a start.
As you know, we are not allowed to 'name and shame' on the forum but you could write reviews with details of the overcrowding, you have photographs to back up what you are saying and reviews might prevent someone else from having a ruined weekend as you did.
The C&CC has a review facility and you could submit reviews to Caravan Sitefinder to enter the £1000 prize draw.

We decided to attend a C&CC rally hosted by the Worcester & Hereford d.a. at Riverside, Bridgnorth and the sunshine certainly brought out the rally goers. The rally field was full with 97 units, from as far apart as Sheffield and Portsmouth ( caravans & motorhomes) and Mike the steward worked very hard in the hot sunshine to get everybody pitched and to make sure that there was the required 20 feet between units.
There was plenty of fun and laughter, friends sat outside with bbq's and drinks but by 11.30pm the rally field was absolutely quiet.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thankyou again Sprocket,

But yet again these are local documents not national regulations. But of great interest is the third paragrapgh of the West Yorkshire document that states:-
"Model Standards, on which this note is based, are specified by the Secretary of State under section 5 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. The Standards are not statutory, but represent what should normally to be expected as a matter of good practice "
So contrary to popular opinion there may be no national regulation pertainimg to touring caravan sites, and as such the detail of any licence issued by a local authority may differ in detail from site to site.

So Surfer,
You cannot assume the 6m distance is regulatory for all touring caravan sites, you have to refer to the individual licence and planning approval for each site for any legal refernce to its pitch spacing, numbers of caravans/campers allowed on any given site.

 

[Parksy]

It's not difficult to uncover information about caravan site licenses issued by local authorities.
Surfers site was near to Tewkesbury Borough Council who state that there should be a 6 metre space between leisure touring caravans, an online enquiry would unearth specific planning conditions for that particular site.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksy,

There's a nasty legalise get out word in the Tewkesbury council wording:-

"should be situated not less than 6 meters"

If it were regulated by statute it would read

"must be situated not less than 6 meters"

I know its a small and pedantic point, but it goes to show that there can be a 'get out' for some of these sites.

 

[Parksy]

Yes I agree John, the best way to deal with situations similar to that which Surfer experienced is to complain to the site owner at the time and to vote with the tow hitch by never revisiting sites that don't come up to an acceptable standard.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Well done Lordy, you just let the cat out of the bag !!, its a great little site , we stay there regular and cant fault it .

We will be using it again Graham when I visit my family. It was my mothers 90th birthday. When visiting we used to stay at Sherwood Forest Caravan Park which was only a couple of miles from my mothers and the home/village I grew up in. The trouble is they want stupid money and for that the facilities don't match the cost. I wish one of the clubs would buy them out because it's got everything going for it regarding location.

 

[Surfer]

Hello Parksy,

There's a nasty legalise get out word in the Tewkesbury council wording:-

"should be situated not less than 6 meters"

If it were regulated by statute it would read

"must be situated not less than 6 meters"

I know its a small and pedantic point, but it goes to show that there can be a 'get out' for some of these sites.

It appears youj are quoting from a synopsis or summary of the regulations therefore the wordingmay not be as per the originals. See here as per your post.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,

Your last posting simply re-points to the same Tewkesbury Borough Council site that Parksy gave a few postings above. Generally documents of this nature are carefully checked by the councils legal team for correct references to legislation, and they well understand the differences between 'should' and 'must'

It is of course possible that this one may have slipped through the filter, but it is very strange that all other similar local authority statements also do not imply there is a national statute to back the minimum spacing requirements.

Further the West Yorkshire, clearly states there is no statutory limit.

There is apparently also a separate class of sites that do not need to be licensed due to some arrangement where by the Secretary of State can apply an exemption notice to the Caravan Club and the Camping and Caravan Club for the site.

This all leads to the suspicion there may be no national statutory legal minimum separation distance for touring caravans, thus any restrictions imposed by the planning approval are actually those imposed at a local level by the relevant local authority. You would need to see the specific planning approval for a site to know if such a limit applies to that site.

This brings you back to the situation where you cannot assume on a national basis that ALL touring caravan sites are required to maintain a minimum separation distance of 6M.

 

[Surfer]

Tewkesbury District Council have sent me a copy of their planning conditions for a caravan site. It is a word document so not sure if I can post the whole document on the forum. They also informed me that it is based on national regualtions. However her eis an extracy and it does state the following;

2. Siting of Caravans

2.1 Every caravan on the site shall be not less than 6 metres from any other caravan in separate occupation and in addition every caravan shall be not less than 3 metres from any carriageway and boundary of a public highway.

As per the above, the owners of the site definitely breached the conditions and it so knowingly as we informed them that they would be breaching planning conditons by having caravans in close proximity to one another plus it being a fire hazard. I also attached photos. It is a shame as it could be a nice site if managed correctly.
There is another caravan site behind the Inn called "The Willows" and is not associated with the Inn. This is a proper caravan site with laid out pitches and a seperate area for tents. There is an on site warden and also a site manager for the Willows.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,

You now have a document relating to the Local authority (LA) that covers the site you used, and now you can take that forward if you wish. What you now need to do is to establish if the site you were on are actually bound by the LA's document, to do that you still need to know the content of the sites planning consent. Do not be surprised if the site has some dispensations from the content of the general statement you recived from the LA.

The statement from the LA telling you the document is based on national regulations is almost certainly true, but what they havn't told you which regulations, and which parts are local content rather than national regulation. The West Yorkshire document suggest that the spacing limits are not part of a national regulation, but they are almost certainly part of the fire services recommendations and thus are probaly adopted by the LA.

I continue to look for the formal national regulations.

 

[Parksy]

There is some ambivalence in the use of the word 'caravan' because under the terms of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (Model Standards 2008) a 'caravan' is a residential unit and it looks to me as though the earlier1983 model standards which refer specifically to touring caravans may have been superseded.
There was some sort of an appendix to the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (Appendix C Section 5 Model Standards 1983 Touring Caravan Sites) which sets out the condition :
'Every unit should be not less than 6 metres from any other unit in permitted between units in any separate family occupation and not less than 3 metres should permitted between units in any circumstances.'
I think that the licensing of touring caravan sites (unless covered by an exemption certificate which are granted to recognised organisations and not caravan sites) is now the responsibility of local authority planning and the terms and conditions attached to site licences may vary from place to place or even from site to site.
Nevertheless Surfer doesn't have to worry about national criteria, all that he has to do if he so wishes is to find out what conditions are attached to that particular site licence and he can do this by looking through the planning archive of the relevant local authority, many of these archives are available online. Entering the name of the site in the search box may well unearth the licence conditions (if any)
Personally speaking I'd have asked for a refund at the time and cleared off, life is much too short and there are plenty of well run sites without needing to worry about badly managed places.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Parksy,

You seem to have found the element I have been looking for.

The "Model Standards 2008 for Caravan Sites in England Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 – Section 5" you point to is an interesting document.

For the reason you state, I have refered to touring caravans, not just caravans. The difference is significant.

It should also be noted it is a "Model Standard" which means it is not a black and white set of clauses and requirements. The content should be seen as best or recommended practice, but it is not obligatory. In fact clause 4 states:-

"4. The model standards represent those standards normally to be expected as a matter of good practice on caravan sites. They should be applied with due regard to the particular circumstances of the relevant site, including its physical character, any relevant services, facilities or other amenities that are available within or in the locality of the site and other applicable conditions"

This explains West Yorkshire Fire service's statement about it not being statutory.

The Act firmly places the responsibility for reviewing the planning application for caravan sites in the hands of the sites Local authority (LA). To that end the LA can set out any limitations it feels is appropriate through its planning approvals. This might include minimum spacing's, but also means the LA can alter such criteria provided they are satisfied with the overall safety of a proposal.

This does mean that different sites (even adjacent ones) may have operate under different planning rules.

The document that Tewkesbury council has provide Surfer, is based on the 1960 act, but it does not mean its exact content will be applied to every touring caravan site application.

I do not think it will serve any further purpose to pursue this line of inquiry any further.

 

[Surfer]

I continue to look for the formal national regulations.

Not sure what part you don't understand. There are national regulations and many links to this regulation can be found by Googling. These are then adapted by various councils to suit their own agenda. In this case I now have the full regulations saved on my unit, both National and for Tewkesbury. Their letter confirms that this site needs investigatin g as soon as possible.
A shame really as it could be a very nice site if managed properly. Hopefully the council will put the owners right. I honestly think that they have no idea of the regualtions etc. According to the planning and environmental regualtions there should be fire points but the only thing there is a rusty winder alarm.