MTPLM - crikey

[Buckman]

The MIRO is definitely not the actual weight of your particular caravan as it left the factory. It is the weight of a caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval and may have had a slightly different specification. For a start, MIRO, by definition, doesn’t include any factory fitted options.

Of course it does not include any options, but on all our caravans the spare wheel has never ever been an option so included in the MIRO along with 20kg of gas and some other odds and ends like wastemaster and steps.! Wastemaster is included if you have an onboard tank.

 

[Hutch]

Further to my post, after a bit of research that I perhaps should have done before, I've just gleaned that the spare wheel attached to the underside of my caravan, might not be included in the stuff Bailey consider as 'part of the caravan' - is this right?

I don't think the spare wheel is part of the MIRO. Seriously think about removing it from the under side of the van and remove the carrier, the carrier weighs about 6 to 7 kg.
Try removing the spare wheel, it is incredibly difficult. You will find the carrier has rubbed into the sidewall of the tyre. I have the side "French" bed and our spare wheel fits in almost the same place but above the floor.

 

[Hutch]

I'm pretty rubbish at working these things out, but would it not make sense to weigh it 'fully laden' and then see by how much it exceeds the MTPLM (or is hopefully a few kg under the MTPLM) as that is the figure beyond which I'm going to be travelling illegally?
Hopefully that doesn't sound too stupid.

I talked my brother who has just bought a caravan to put everything essential into the van except clothes and food. And take it to the weigh bridge, he was 10 kg under.

 

[Lutz]

Of course it does not include any options, but on all our caravans the spare wheel has never ever been an option so included in the MIRO along with 20kg of gas and some other odds and ends like wastemaster and steps.! Wastemaster is included if you have an onboard tank.

Don't take that for granted.

 

[Buckman]

Don't take that for granted.

I do when it is in writing.

 

[Hutch]

I do when it is in writing.

The caravan brochure might state it has a spare wheel, but does it state it is part of the MIRO,

 

[Lutz]

I do when it is in writing.

It depends on where it's written. Handbooks aren't documents. A weight only has any documentary value if it's linked to the chassis number of the respective vehicle.

 

[Buckman]

The caravan brochure might state it has a spare wheel, but does it state it is part of the MIRO,

Both the Lunar and Buccaneer hand books included spare wheel as it was standard from factory. I wasn't particularly bothered if we exceeded the MTPLM by a few kgs although in reality we were just under it as carried the minimum stuff in the caravan. Also removed the table so 8 kgs and only using a Safefill bottle saved another 9kgs.

 

[otherclive]

My last Swift had a spare wheel in the front locker as the standard kit, and it’s predecessor from Bailey came brand new with an under slung spare, and either it was standard or a gift from the dealer. As I certainly did not pay extra for it.

But unless a car is marginal in towing an unladen caravan, then the best option is to weigh it fully loaded for a long holiday in bad weather in an area with no grocers or pubs. 😂

 

[Lutz]

Even if you didn't order your caravan specifying a factory fitted option, that doesn't necessarily mean that no option was fitted. For production control purposes, manufacturers sometimes fit items as mandatory options, but which never appear as such on the invoice and are therefore considered as standard fitment by the customer. For that reason, a trip to the weighbridge is the only safe way to establish the actual weight of your caravan accurately.

 

[Hutch]

Even if you didn't order your caravan specifying a factory fitted option, that doesn't necessarily mean that no option was fitted. For production control purposes, manufacturers sometimes fit items as mandatory options, but which never appear as such on the invoice and are therefore considered as standard fitment by the customer. For that reason, a trip to the weighbridge is the only safe way to establish the actual weight of your caravan accurately.

A spare wheel supplied as "Standard" could be an extra, 26 kg wheel and ALKO carrier. Just be sensible, load your van as you would normally / tour, get it on a weigh bridge. And take it from there. .

 

[Buckman]

Even if you didn't order your caravan specifying a factory fitted option, that doesn't necessarily mean that no option was fitted. For production control purposes, manufacturers sometimes fit items as mandatory options, but which never appear as such on the invoice and are therefore considered as standard fitment by the customer. For that reason, a trip to the weighbridge is the only safe way to establish the actual weight of your caravan accurately.

Is there perhaps a reason why you are saying we are wrong when we have taken instruction from the manufacturer? We all understand that the MIRO can vary, but hardly likely you are going to jail because you are 5kg over the MTPM? Doubt if you even get a fine even if 30kgs over the MTPLM, but until you resolve the issue you may not be allow to proceed.

After all if you exceed speed limit by 4mph, in the UK will you get a fine?

 

[Lutz]

Is there perhaps a reason why you are saying we are wrong when we have taken instruction from the manufacturer? We all understand that the MIRO can vary, but hardly likely you are going to jail because you are 5kg over the MTPM? Doubt if you even get a fine even if 30kgs over the MTPLM, but until you resolve the issue you may not be allow to proceed.

After all if you exceed speed limit by 4mph, in the UK will you get a fine?

Law enforcement officers aren't interested in MIRO, so it wasn't for that reason that I made my comments, but some people seem to take the MIRO figure as chiselled in stone and add the weight of everything that they load on board to see if they remain within the MTPLM. The fact that MIRO could be over 200kg off the actual unladen weight, as experienced by someone in another forum, just shows how risky it is to work on that basis, especially if it results in the MTPLM also being 200kg over the limit. I wouldn't expect 200kg to go by with a simple warning.

 

[otherclive]

Law enforcement officers aren't interested in MIRO, so it wasn't for that reason that I made my comments, but some people seem to take the MIRO figure as chiselled in stone and add the weight of everything that they load on board to see if they remain within the MTPLM. The fact that MIRO could be over 200kg off the actual unladen weight, as experienced by someone in another forum, just shows how risky it is to work on that basis, especially if it results in the MTPLM also being 200kg over the limit. I wouldn't expect 200kg to go by with a simple warning.

I once inadvertently overloaded a 1000 kg MTPLM caravan by around 240kg as weighed fully loaded, then confirmed by reweighing barely loaded. Fortunately I had fitted higher load index tyres that exceeded the overloaded weight. It towed very well on the return journey from Wales, fingers being crossed that there were no DOT checks. I even avoided J18 of the M 4 where there was an DOT weighing station, and took a roundabout route home. The only positive from this experience was that the sum of the payload items I had weighed at home was remarkably accurate as confirmed by two public weighbridges. One a full HGV tyoe near Brecon, the other a 5 tonne one on the Longleat log outlet. 😱

 

[Dustydog]

I once inadvertently overloaded a 1000 kg MTPLM caravan by around 240kg as weighed fully loaded, then confirmed by reweighing barely loaded. Fortunately I had fitted higher load index tyres that exceeded the overloaded weight. It towed very well on the return journey from Wales, fingers being crossed that there were no DOT checks. I even avoided J18 of the M 4 where there was an DOT weighing station, and took a roundabout route home. The only positive from this experience was that the sum of the payload items I had weighed at home was remarkably accurate as confirmed by two public weighbridges. One a full HGV tyoe near Brecon, the other a 5 tonne one on the Longleat log outlet. 😱

And you experienced a collapsed axle suspension 😜

 

[Buckman]

Law enforcement officers aren't interested in MIRO, so it wasn't for that reason that I made my comments, but some people seem to take the MIRO figure as chiselled in stone and add the weight of everything that they load on board to see if they remain within the MTPLM. The fact that MIRO could be over 200kg off the actual unladen weight, as experienced by someone in another forum, just shows how risky it is to work on that basis, especially if it results in the MTPLM also being 200kg over the limit. I wouldn't expect 200kg to go by with a simple warning.

Again just to shoot down your doom and gloom theory in flames. LOL! If the caravan is 20, 100 or maybe 200kg over the MIRO then it is not longer "as described" and "not fit for purpose" as the available advertised payload is significantly reduced. The consumer would be well within their rights to reject the caravan as not fit for purpose.

I doubt if any manufacturer is going to be foolish enough to significantly alter the MIRO and end up with a load of caravans being returned back to the dealer or themselves.

 

[Lutz]

Again just to shoot down your doom and gloom theory in flames. LOL! If the caravan is 20, 100 or maybe 200kg over the MIRO then it is not longer "as described" and "not fit for purpose" as the available advertised payload is significantly reduced. The consumer would be well within their rights to reject the caravan as not fit for purpose.

I doubt if any manufacturer is going to be foolish enough to significantly alter the MIRO and end up with a load of caravans being returned back to the dealer or themselves.

The manufacturer has nothing to worry about because MIRO isn't defined as being the ex-works weight of your particular caravan, so the manufacturer doesn't lay any claim to the MIRO to be its ex-works weight. It is a generic value based on one sample caravan with the minimum of saleable equipment that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. My caravan was built before whole vehicle type approval came into effect for caravans, but the type approval certificate for my car documents an actual weight that is 90kg more than the similarly documented MIRO. A difference of 200kg, while rather exceptional, is therefore not completely unrealistic. I have come across variances of up to 150kg myself. For that reason, MIRO has little value to the customer other than a very rough indication of unladen weight. Your only opportunity for recourse action would be if the documented actual ex-works weight were way off the mark.

 

[Buckman]

The manufacturer has nothing to worry about because MIRO isn't defined as being the ex-works weight of your particular caravan. It is a generic value based on one sample caravan with the minimum of saleable equipment that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. My caravan was built before whole vehicle type approval came into effect for caravans, but the type approval certificate for my car documents an actual weight that is 90kg more than the similarly documented MIRO. A difference of 200kg, while rather exceptional, is therefore not completely unrealistic. I have come across variances of up to 150kg myself.

Did you miss the part about the payload and that definitely has a knock on effect on the payload which is mainly governed by the MIRO as the MTPLM is a fixed value?

 

[otherclive]

And you experienced a collapsed axle suspension 😜

The one I inadvertently overloaded was perfectly symmetrical when viewed from front and rear. Went by P/E to dealership. French manufacturer, but still an Alko 1000kg axle. The previous owners a retired couple used it for winter vacations in Spain. I now know why they use a VW Caddy. I suspect everything went in to the car and they towed the caravan very light, with virtually nothing in it except battery, gas bottle and its mover.

 

[Lutz]

Did you miss the part about the payload and that definitely has a knock on effect on the payload which is mainly governed by the MIRO as the MTPLM is a fixed value?

But the available payload isn't documented anywhere. It may be published in the handbook or other on the manufacturer's website, but that's always for guidance only and not documented as being legally binding. The manufacturer always reserves the right to changes. The only document which definitively quotes the actual ex-works weight is the type approval certificate because that is linked directly to the VIN.

 

[Buckman]

But the available payload isn't documented anywhere. It may be published in the handbook or other on the manufacturer's website, but that's always for guidance only and not documented as being legally binding. The manufacturer always reserves the right to changes. The only document which definitively quotes the actual ex-works weight is the type approval certificate because that is linked directly to the VIN.

Not sure why you keep trying to justify an increased MIRO? Payload is documented in owner's manual and not something taken out of fresh air so nprobably is legally binding

 

[Lutz]

Not sure why you keep trying to justify an increased MIRO? Payload is documented in owner's manual and not something taken out of fresh air so nprobably is legally binding

The owner's manual is not a legal document and, as I said, the manufacturer reserves the right to change. Besides, MIRO simply isn't ex-works weight and is not defined that way. The only legally binding figure is the ex-works actual weight which is documented in the type approval certificate.

 

[Mr Plodd]

The ONLY way to determine the actual weight of any caravan is to have that particular caravan weighed.
MIRO is a meaningless figure in practical terms, what matters is the caravans actual weight when its on the road, AND contrary to what many will try and claim any nose weight cannot be subtracted from its MTPLM. It will reduce the axle load slightly when hitched to a towing vehicle, but won't reduce the caravans overall MTPLM which is what is on the VIN plate
Stated weights on the VIN plate refer to the caravan when it is standing on its own and is not attached to a towing vehicle.
Having been involved with the weighing of vehicles for the best part of 30 years I have first hand practical knowledge of the law and how it is enforced.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Not sure why you keep trying to justify an increased MIRO? Payload is documented in owner's manual and not something taken out of fresh air so nprobably is legally binding

The only two things that are legally binding are the axle weight and the MTPLM.
There is no legislation anywhere that ever refers to payload, onky axle and gross weights.

 

[otherclive]

The ONLY way to determine the actual weight of any caravan is to have that particular caravan weighed.
MIRO is a meaningless figure in practical terms, what matters is the caravans actual weight when its on the road, AND contrary to what many will try and claim any nose weight cannot be subtracted from its MTPLM. It will reduce the axle load slightly when hitched to a towing vehicle, but won't reduce the caravans overall MTPLM which is what is on the VIN plate
Stated weights on the VIN plate refer to the caravan when it is standing on its own and is not attached to a towing vehicle.
Having been involved with the weighing of vehicles for the best part of 30 years I have first hand practical knowledge of the law and how it is enforced.

Having been on the “ guest list” of a DoT vehicle checking center I can confirm the thoroughness with which each member of the inspection team went about their work, including the police motorcyclist who kindly waved me to follow him. Even the car got a good going over.