France getting too expensive

[ScouseIan]

I went to France and Spain last year for 3 weeks. I mainly used autoroutes because I needed to do 3 or 4 hundred miles at a time. The cost of the tolls really bit and next year I want to consider something different. I am thinking maybe go down through Belgium and Germany as a way to get to the italian coast near Venice. I am assuming this route is free of tolls. Has anybody any experience of this? Any tips? Campsite near Alps for some walking would be good. There is a good looking site on the CC website for Italian coast.

Thanks

 

[ValA.]

If you have to go through Switzerland on the Swiss motorway network then you'll have to buy a vignette, for both the car and the caravan, at a cost of 40 Swiss Francs for each one. They do last for a year though! Belgium is definitely toll free and I think the German autobahs are free of tolls, too (but can be very very busy)

Most of the Italian autostrada have tolls - we went to Lake Garda and I remember the toll striking me as quite expensive.

Tolls in France are expensive, particularly if you're towing, but we manage to get to Cambrils with only minimal tolls to pay - and we managed to get back from Cambrils to Calais once with only one overnight stop on the way home. We must have covered about the same mileage per day as you, or perhaps even more. It's not as difficult as you think, nor as slow necessarily, to become 'toll-free'.

 

[ScouseIan]

I know what you mean val about 'not as slow when toll free'. But you do have to do a lot of research on this and some of those N roads can be quite dangerous by the looks of them.

 

[ValA.]

I suppose 28 years of experience helps! We have a map book now, where we've highlighted a lot of the easy N roads - and marked those which are problematic because they go through too many towns or villages. We can now do almost all routes toll-free. The worst bit of all is the Calais to St Quentin stretch in northern France, so recently we've taken to going the other way - along towards Boulogne, then Abbeville, Rouen, Chartres, and via the A71 down towards the A75 and Clermont Ferrand (the free autoroute to the south).

If we're heading for the Ardeche region we have another 'favourite' route which takes us down to St Quentin (from Dunkerque you can get there with few tolls), then a real cross-country road from St Quentin via Soissons, and Sezanne, down to Troyes alongside the Seine (a lovely route), and our overnight stop at Lac de Panthier.

We haven't found the N roads to be at all dangerous - just some to be faster than others because most of the towns and villages have now (sensibly, like the French do) been by-passed. Mind you, I suppose it helps in that we're travelling in low season (May/June, or August/September) rather than in July when the whole of France goes on holiday.

One year (years ago when my sons were small) our lone Citroen featured on a French news programme about 'Le Retour' (the date towards the end of August when all the French go home) - and mentioned that 'only Les Anglais' were heading south! We were the only car heading south for miles - and yet traffic in the opposite direction was nose to tail. We saw the programme on the TV in the hotel we were staying in at the time. The strange thing was that on the way back (same hotel) the news programme featured the International Juggling Competition which was taking place outside the Town Hall in Leeds - and there, in pride of place watching, was Mr Val A's elderly mother, who they interviewed! Two lots of fame in one holiday!

 

[Clubman1]

If you are heading for Venice can I suggest the following route, one which I have travelled many times with the 'van on the 'ook.....Calias/Dunkirk - Mons - Namur - Cologne (Kerpen)- head south then to Frankfurt - Munich - Garmisch Partenkirchen - Brenner Pass - Lake Garda - Venice. You will pay tolls on the Brenner, Austrian autoroutes amd Ita;ian autopiste.

 

[EvansofSprot]

I suppose 28 years of experience helps! We have a map book now, where we've highlighted a lot of the easy N roads - and marked those which are problematic because they go through too many towns or villages. We can now do almost all routes toll-free. The worst bit of all is the Calais to St Quentin stretch in northern France, so recently we've taken to going the other way - along towards Boulogne, then Abbeville, Rouen, Chartres, and via the A71 down towards the A75 and Clermont Ferrand (the free autoroute to the south).

If we're heading for the Ardeche region we have another 'favourite' route which takes us down to St Quentin (from Dunkerque you can get there with few tolls), then a real cross-country road from St Quentin via Soissons, and Sezanne, down to Troyes alongside the Seine (a lovely route), and our overnight stop at Lac de Panthier.

We haven't found the N roads to be at all dangerous - just some to be faster than others because most of the towns and villages have now (sensibly, like the French do) been by-passed. Mind you, I suppose it helps in that we're travelling in low season (May/June, or August/September) rather than in July when the whole of France goes on holiday.

One year (years ago when my sons were small) our lone Citroen featured on a French news programme about 'Le Retour' (the date towards the end of August when all the French go home) - and mentioned that 'only Les Anglais' were heading south! We were the only car heading south for miles - and yet traffic in the opposite direction was nose to tail. We saw the programme on the TV in the hotel we were staying in at the time. The strange thing was that on the way back (same hotel) the news programme featured the International Juggling Competition which was taking place outside the Town Hall in Leeds - and there, in pride of place watching, was Mr Val A's elderly mother, who they interviewed! Two lots of fame in one holiday!

Those were the days Val!

Now everyone goes to France!lol

 

[Chrisbee]

I suppose 28 years of experience helps! We have a map book now, where we've highlighted a lot of the easy N roads - and marked those which are problematic because they go through too many towns or villages. We can now do almost all routes toll-free. The worst bit of all is the Calais to St Quentin stretch in northern France, so recently we've taken to going the other way - along towards Boulogne, then Abbeville, Rouen, Chartres, and via the A71 down towards the A75 and Clermont Ferrand (the free autoroute to the south).

If we're heading for the Ardeche region we have another 'favourite' route which takes us down to St Quentin (from Dunkerque you can get there with few tolls), then a real cross-country road from St Quentin via Soissons, and Sezanne, down to Troyes alongside the Seine (a lovely route), and our overnight stop at Lac de Panthier.

We haven't found the N roads to be at all dangerous - just some to be faster than others because most of the towns and villages have now (sensibly, like the French do) been by-passed. Mind you, I suppose it helps in that we're travelling in low season (May/June, or August/September) rather than in July when the whole of France goes on holiday.

One year (years ago when my sons were small) our lone Citroen featured on a French news programme about 'Le Retour' (the date towards the end of August when all the French go home) - and mentioned that 'only Les Anglais' were heading south! We were the only car heading south for miles - and yet traffic in the opposite direction was nose to tail. We saw the programme on the TV in the hotel we were staying in at the time. The strange thing was that on the way back (same hotel) the news programme featured the International Juggling Competition which was taking place outside the Town Hall in Leeds - and there, in pride of place watching, was Mr Val A's elderly mother, who they interviewed! Two lots of fame in one holiday!

Hi Val, I don't want to hijack this thread but if it's not too much trouble could you let me have details of your route to the Ardeche? I'm actually going to St Pierre d'Argencon but it's the same general direction(I hope). You may still have my e mail address from the camping cheque reqest if you feel this isn't the right thread to post on.

Chrisbee

 

[BarryB_5039906]

Hi there Ian

We have visited Venice many times and the site talked of throught CC is probably Ca'Savio. This is a very big site, but you would not know it. It is ideal for families as it is only 100 yards to the beach. The water bus to Venice is about 3 miles away with good parking or a local bus. The toilets are ok but are getting ready for doing up and the pitches can be tight. We like it and shall be there for about a week this summer. We use the Belgium, German route and cross the alps via the Brenner, which I thinks costs about 8 Euros as does the Austrian vignette. I do have a little concern with the route suggested by Clubman...going via Garmisch-Partenkirchen would include the Zirl pass where caravans are NOT permitted northbound or recommended south. To be fair I have done it south, it is not too long but it is steep with quite a severe hairpin. I prefer to go around Munich and enter Austria at Kufstein. This is a quick and easy option. Hope this is of use.

Happy travels BarryB

 

[DianneT]

We usually go thro Belgium stopping nr. Bitburg for the first stop in Germany then to a site in the Black Forest, next stop Innsbruck (2 good sites there one ACSI one Camping cheque) down to next stop Garda then you can go across to Venice from there.

costing 7euros 40. for Austrian toll and then the Brenner Toll.

Don't know about the trip from Garda to Venice.

 

[DavidKlyne]

I was also a bit concerned about the idea of using the route via Garmisch Partenkirchen and I assume Seefeld and Innsbruck. I would have thought a better option was the Fern Pass and then onto the Brenner. We are aiming for Italy this year and want to do a tour of the lakes and Venice. At the moment planning to use either the Frejus Tunnel or the Mont de Cenis Pass as that takes us nearer to our first destination. Thinking of using the Brenner and Fern passes for the return journey which we have used before. The Brenner coming from the south is a spectacular road.

David

 

[Clubman1]

Hi there Ian

We have visited Venice many times and the site talked of throught CC is probably Ca'Savio. This is a very big site, but you would not know it. It is ideal for families as it is only 100 yards to the beach. The water bus to Venice is about 3 miles away with good parking or a local bus. The toilets are ok but are getting ready for doing up and the pitches can be tight. We like it and shall be there for about a week this summer. We use the Belgium, German route and cross the alps via the Brenner, which I thinks costs about 8 Euros as does the Austrian vignette. I do have a little concern with the route suggested by Clubman...going via Garmisch-Partenkirchen would include the Zirl pass where caravans are NOT permitted northbound or recommended south. To be fair I have done it south, it is not too long but it is steep with quite a severe hairpin. I prefer to go around Munich and enter Austria at Kufstein. This is a quick and easy option. Hope this is of use.

Happy travels BarryB

I readily accept you comments about the Zirl Pass, that said it has never presented any adverse problems for me. Low gear and no heavy braking to avoid brake fade. I have never returned via this route but am aware of the caravan prohibition north bound on the Zirl Pass.

 

[ScouseIan]

Thanks for all the info.

All very useful. Just need to work on SWMBO now.

 

[ValA.]

Hi Val, I don't want to hijack this thread but if it's not too much trouble could you let me have details of your route to the Ardeche? I'm actually going to St Pierre d'Argencon but it's the same general direction(I hope). You may still have my e mail address from the camping cheque reqest if you feel this isn't the right thread to post on.

Chrisbee

Yes, I've got it somewhere in fairly detailed format, so I'll email it to you, probably this evening if that's OK?

 

[ValA.]

Hi Val, I don't want to hijack this thread but if it's not too much trouble could you let me have details of your route to the Ardeche? I'm actually going to St Pierre d'Argencon but it's the same general direction(I hope). You may still have my e mail address from the camping cheque reqest if you feel this isn't the right thread to post on.

Chrisbee

Sorry, Chrisbee - only the first part of the route will be any use to you - as far as Lyon, probably, because after that you're heading off into Provence - on the other side of the Rhone Valley to the Ardeche. I'll copy out the first half of the route for you, and hope you have a good trip.

 

[Rioja]

When we made the journey south from Zeebruge last year for the first time, we decided to avoid all toll routes as we wanted to see a bit more countryside on our way to Provence. We stopped overnight near Chaumont having only hopped on and off the autoroute to get us past Reims. Travelling on a Sunday the roads were deserted. The only thing to watch for were speed traps of which we passed 3 or 4. I don't speed as an habit but as they don't put up speed specific signs as you enter villages it's easy to forget at first.

We arrived at our destination about an hour after another couple who had , it turned out, been on our boat and had travelled the long way but via autoroutes.

The next day we carried on and everything was going well until we got south of Dijon. There was so much agricultural traffic related to the wine harvesting that was going on that the roads became too congested. We joined the autoroute to travel south from there ( Macon). In comparison I found the autoroute far more stressful as I was in fast moving high volume heavy vehicle traffic with the Mistral to contend with too !

I would highly recommend the N route as and when it suits.. Far more scenic and easy to follow even without a satnav ( but I will get one before I go again!)

 

[ScouseIan]

Rioja

Nice paragraph. Enjoyed reading it.

The problem is that at 830 ish miles from port to med, I can just about make it in 2 days providing I am off the ferry at 7 am kind of time. That 1 hour you quote could be crucial. Yes, I know its an expensive hour but it could be worth it.

If I'm on the autoroute travelling at 63 mph (I set my cruise at that) then over the day I'm probably getting an average of 50mph by the time you include jams and slow sections. I can't see me getting anywhere near that on N roads.

Using my Autoroute planner Calais to Frejus is 726 miles using Autoroutes. 14.5 hours driving, I'd guess. If I only use N roads thats virtually the same distance. But now it would be 18 hours driving if I do an average of 40mph (20% slower). We all know how difficult the last 2 hours of the journey can be.

Its a tough call though isn't it? We wrestle with it each year.

 

[ValA.]

Ian - whilst I can understand you wanting to get to your destination as quickly as possible, you do have three weeks, and is an hour a day actually worth over

 

[Chrisbee]

After years of using autoroutes we are going "toll free" this year. Thanks to advice from Val A I have planned a route which will be much more pleasant than joining the speed merchants on the autoroute. I intend to take my time and see a bit more of the country, with an extra overnight stop. I get just as many nights on French campsites and save over

 

[ScouseIan]

Good points Val. Thank you.

I didn't know about these 'Bis routes'. I wouldn't mind trying them. The thing is, as you may recall, I'm still new to 'vanning as I only bought the first one 7 months ago. Our second trip out involved 3,000 miles around France and into Spain and to be honest it took its toll on my wife. She only agreed to buy the caravan after 20 years of nagging off me and she would not look forward to the travelling time taking any longer.

At the moment she has not agreed to go abroad in the caravan this year. As soon as she is released from the psychiatric ward I will talk to her.

As you say the cost of about

 

[ValA.]

Yes, sorry Ian I hadn't realised just how new you were to caravanning in France. We've been camping there for 28 years, and caravanning since 1994! So plenty of years of working out which routes worked for us, and which didn't! We've now got it down to a fine art - being able to reach the Med with very few tolls, if any (although we don't begrudge the toll over the Millau viaduct!!!). Some of our routes can be quite 'rural' but often better than following the N road immediately adjacent to the autoroutes, which are often busy and clogged with traffic. The rural routes often are quicker overall because you've no hold-ups at all.

Not only don't you have tolls to pay, but you can save a fortune on fuel - as the costs off autoroute can be up to 20 cents a litre cheaper.

We 'did' Italy several years ago, but were 'arrested' (OK stopped by traffic police) and marched by them with drawn guns to a bank to exchange money to pay for the enormous fine for not having a 'long-vehicle plaque' on the back of our bike-rack. Not a very pleasant experience with an 11 year old and 5 year old - and it's put us off going back. My sons still 'spit in the general direction of Ovada' - the town in Italy where it happened(from the scene from the Monty Python sketch!!!) when they want to curse something!

 

[Chrissylizzie]

Hi Val

We are going to the Dordogne in May and I am interested to know more about these Bis Routes. I presume they are ok when towing or you would not use them, but more information would be great.

Chris

 

[Clockwork_374390647]

When we restarted caravanning friends invited us to join them on their 5 week summer trip the Italian lakes and Frejus.

Travelling on a known route with all the planning sorted. All we had to do was play follow my leader on the pretty toll free roads.

I took in the sale pitch that didn't include anything about,

a few very bumpy roads

level crossings

some cobbled streets

elderly lady sunday drivers in shoe box sized two seater putput cars

agricultural traffic

cyclists and cycling clubs

petrol stations closed on Sunday, and machines that didn't take UK cards

Scenic route for my passenger wife, purgatory horror journey for me.

Having driven back and forth to our place in Spain using tolls I would have paid treble the toll for a smooth mile gobbling autoroute or autostrada. Some parts of the route were fine, but others were just no fun and tagging along behind friends a definate NO NO.

Mrs Clockwork got the point when she caught me in a Nice travel agents checking out the price of a flight back to the UK.

Our friends never drive for more than about an hour, and stop to take photo's for their internet "travel log blog" or for his *** break.

Wife didn't fancy tugging the caravan all the way home alone, we just met our friends at two sites on the homeward leg.

I set aside fuel and toll charges from our holiday budgets and cruise along toll roads with ease and far better mpg. Now we know where we can fill up at supermarkets without going out of our way so we avoid toll route fuel rate.

To the original question. No.

French tolls can bleed us dry providing I can keep rolling without trying to dodge Granny LeClerc in her 40kph noddy car or trail behind Jaques and his knobbly knee pals posing as LeTour Peleton and Tete de la course.

 

[Chrissylizzie]

Some very good points and some I can relate to. We did cover one part on 'country roads' and experienced some of your findings. I was glad to get back on the toll roads so perhaps that is the way for us.

 

[ValA.]

Point taken about some of the 'drawbacks' of cross-country routes - but I suppose if, like us, you're a couple not in a hurry to get anywhere, but more 'up for the experiences' these routes suit us - and if you all keep to the autoroutes then we'll have less traffic to contend with and money in our pocket at the end of our journey!!

We did have to stop for an hour when a cycle race was passing by, but we busied ourselves making coffee for all the French drivers behind us, had a lot of interesting 'Franglais' conversations, made friends with the 'marshall' (who was a French caravanner) and now have an invitation to visit him and Madame Marshall whenever we want!

Chrissylizzie - the Bis routes used to be published by Bison Fute (a French Gov. organisation, aimed at traffic management) - however their current website only shows hold-ups and so on, without suggesting alternative routes. I'm going off to find my map now, and will note some of the suggested routes if anyone's interested.

 

[ScouseIan]

I've looked online and I can see that a Bison Fute map is like a hens tooth. No chance, even second hand. A good blog on the telegraph site though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/columnists/nicktrend/4141467/France-on-a-budget-money-saving-tips-and-advice.html
er, hope its ok to post that link here. Its only a newspaper, not a competitor.

I did see that Bison Fute translates roughly to 'wily Bison' though.