Fuel prices

[Steve L]

I have sympathy for the proposed idea of boycotting a particular fuel supplier, but please spare a thought for the forecourt operator, and the longer term effects of such a unilateral move.

It is my understanding that many of the fuel retailers are independent companies who franchise the corporate image of the bulk suppliers.

If you were to ask any of them what profit margin the retailer gets, they may laugh at you. There have been some reports that that the margin per litre is in the order of 5p or less, and where a credit or debit card is used the margin falls in some cases to zero. Look at the number of independents that have closed over the last 5 years.

The bulk of profit comes from ancillary services such as sweets and news papers; the fuel is in many cases a loss leader.

There is now much greater profit in the value of land site, especially where it falls within an existing residential area. Modern building will get between 4 to 6 houses on a typical filling station site. At today's prices that's a profit after building costs of between .5 to 2 Million depending on area!

I suspect the effect of boycotting a particular supplier will cause redundancies, the sale of sites to developers. The target companies will offset their losses by increasing prices to bulk purchasers such as the supermarkets. With the loss of the independents the competition will be diminished and guess what, there will be less pressure on the supermarkets to keep prices down.

My view is that the only way to force prices down is for the consumer to use less.

I quite agree with you. I have got a car that returns 8mpg better while towing and about 15Mpg better solo, and also for comuting I use a small 1100cc car that gets near to 60mpg.

I don't want to put any small businessman out of business, I know first hand what that feels like.

But lobbying MP's gets nowhere. Ears flap only at selective good press and self promotional subjects.

 

[Steve L]

Steve in Leo - Whilst I have every sympathy for the motorist as fuel costs affect me like everybody else, the last action by fuel protesters cost me and everyone else who relies on driving to do their job a small fortune. So please don't start more direct action as this disrupts business and everbody else's lives too much and makes little difference to the oil co's, but it could stop us all going vanning when we want to! Surely the point is to lobby the Govt, as all over Europe fuel is much cheaper than here due to lower taxes. Most of us are now running more economical cars - they're called diesels!

Mike. I know first hand how it feels to loose a business and have to walk off with what you can carry, so I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

But I've lobby'd my MP for months and got nowhere. They are only interested in good photo opportunities etc.

I run a petrol car that is within 3mpg as good as a diesel to commute to work so feel I'm making an effort to save fuel.

LPG is a good alternative at present but it won't be long before the tax man catches up on that one.

I'm afraid it's the oil refinary's and the taxman who are the fat cats in the chain, and as I've said before us peasants pick up the pain. My brother in law closed his garage for fuel years ago because he was having to sell fuel on account to the "rich farmers" and the landed gentry, but had to pay cheque on delivery for the fuel to him. He was lucky to make 2p a litre.

It's a tough world but it seems those who dictate the price "us Dollar's" are not asking their lot to use cars that do 30mpg let alone 60mpg. We had a Yank at work and he complained because we lent him a ford focus to run round in, saying it was a micro car.

I took him out in my Renauly 5 to show him a small car, that shut him up.

 

[CliveV]

In some ways I am pleased to see that the consensus on the Forum is the same as in this office. i.e. - Good idea but the opportunity cost could be dramatic on the fourcourt operator and employees in these "selected companies.

After all these people will have families - go on holiday - possibly in a caravan!

Would it effect the big companies? Not at all if they supply the fuel to those companies that we all deem to be "OK" as stated earlier in the thread.

So as we thought, its a bit of a non-starter.

Which is a shame because with tax at circa 80% of the price of fuel most of the low paid pay more tax on getting to work than they do on there incomes!!

That cannot be right.

 

[Surfer]

The problem with buying from the supermarkets is that their fuel is "cheap & nasty". I used to fill up with diesel at the supermarket but them noticed that my car started smoking on start up. I switched back to Shell and no more problem. Also my mpg has improved. I also noticed the same with my wife's petrol car except that it did not smoke, just more mpg and perkier!

 

[rob_jax]

Ian,

Surprised you found any real difference between Supermarket and main brand fuel. If you live in the Kent / Essex area of the South East or the Cheshire and surroudning area in the North West, then it's very likely that all of the local fuel would have come from the Shell refineries.

The oil companies have reciprocal arrangements whereby the nearest refinery supplies fuel for the local garages. And to the best of my knowledge Tesco / Sainsburys / Morrisons don't (yet) own a refinery.

Robert

 

[CliveV]

Glad you mentioned this Ian - we noticed poor running and "pinking" on hills with my wifes car after filling up at a supermarket. This problem went away when we filled up again at a Shell garage. The better running was quite noticible.

The worst problem we had with this was in France camping near Perpinion - filled up at the local supermarket and the missfiring and general banging about was awful. The campsite staff then told us that this place sold substandard fuel. Filled up with the highest priced stuff we could get to dilute it out and problem solved.

I supose you pay your money and take your choice. So I know find a "quality" provider near to the supermarkets which usualy sell at the same discount price.

Since doing this - have had no problems.

Does not seem to be the same variation with LPG but CalorAutoGas does have a higher concentration of the stenching agent - so parked in town at traffic lights, pedestrians nearby start sniifing the air thinking there is a gas leak!

 

[CliveV]

Hi Robert,

They do not own refineries but they do buy on the spot market and this stuff can come from anywhere and is of variable standard.

You only have to taste certain own brand cheap sausages to realise that whatever is in them may have been inside an animal but probably not part of it.

The big brands do refine to a certain standard. If we en-masse boycott BP-ESSO as the email sender propossed all BP Esso will do is to sell to the supermarkets.

Thus the ability of such action to drive down prices is highly doubtful

 

[Dusty1]

If you break down the figures for say ultra-low sulphur petrol at say 88.24p/litre, VAT is 13.14p, duty is 47.10p, which leaves 28p for the oil company. As the Government is taking the lion's share at 60.24p/litre should we not be protesting to our MPs. Furthermore a 7p rise in fuel price gives the Government another 1p in VAT which covers Gordon Browns proposed increase in the fuel duty that he is generously delaying!

(VAT on fuel - a tax on a tax!!!!!!!).

 

[Lutz]

Oh for the days when I paid half a crown for a gallon (that's 2.8p a litre in today's money) and gave petrol stations that charged 2 shillings 7 pence a miss!

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Clive,

Variable standard - not too variable - the fuel must be manufactured to the relevant EN standard. Aside from that, some companies add an amount of additive - either during the refining process - or the tanker driver tips a can into the tanker before leaving the refinery.

The spot market - one of the major costs is transport from the refinery to the garage. So it's common practice to supply from the closest refinery - any difference in spot price is lost in delivery costs.

The fuel can come from anywhere - well there is one Exxon refinery on the South coast, two Shell refineries in the UK, BP and Total refineries in Scotland, and a joint Texaco-Conoco-Philips refinery in West Wales, plus a few small specialist refineries like the Rix bio-diesel plant on Humberside. Further away than that there is the Shell refinery in Rotterdam, and the Total refinery near Le Havre.

All of these are running at 100% production, and it takes about 4 years to build a new refinery.

Although today in Rotterdam I read that Shell have reduced prices by a few cents and the Dutch government have also announced they won't apply the automatic 2% inflation increase on the fuel duty for 2006 and maybe 2007.

Dutch petrol prices hit Euro 1,40 per litre (

 

[Lutz]

Oh for the days when I paid half a crown for a gallon (that's 2.8p a litre in today's money) and gave petrol stations that charged 2 shillings 7 pence a miss!

Sorry, not quite. Not half a crown but one crown (5 shillings). Even so, that's still only 5.6p a litre.

 

[CliveV]

Hi Robert

I have no reason to doubt what you say is true - but the fact remains I know we have had a bad experience with "own brand" petrol. It would seem that others have had the same problem with their oil-burners.

My solution is to buy from a "brand" that is close to a supermarket. The price is a little bit less than the norm and the engine runs better.

Still can't beat LPG at 38p per litre though - and at nearly 100 octane the engine is so smooth compared to UL petrol. Runs cleaner as well lower emmisions and less unburnt hydrocarbons in the oil resulting in less engine wear.

Brilliant stuff - but I expect the buggers will put the duty on this up soon.

 

[Mike_5041089]

Sorry, not quite. Not half a crown but one crown (5 shillings). Even so, that's still only 5.6p a litre.

Lutz - I can remember when I was just 16 (1969), having a weekend job at a filling station where I earned the princely sum of 5/- per hour (25p) and a big order from a customer was a

 

[jon_5062082]

USA dont have a health service to fund though do they ?

they have cheap fuel yes, but you pay through the nose for your medical care instead.

swings and roundabouts i guess.

yes the price is high and guess it will stay high for keeps now. as oil resources gradually dwindle it will be even worse.

 

[jon_5062082]

The problem with buying from the supermarkets is that their fuel is "cheap & nasty". I used to fill up with diesel at the supermarket but them noticed that my car started smoking on start up. I switched back to Shell and no more problem. Also my mpg has improved. I also noticed the same with my wife's petrol car except that it did not smoke, just more mpg and perkier!

most supermarkets use the major oil companies for their supplies anyway. same stuff, different tanker, thats from inside knowledge of the industry.

 

[CliveV]

Not sure about how paying 80% tax on fuel somehow pays for the NHS - I am sure the NHS does require more tax than the National Insurance Contributions we and our employers pay but any other link than that is tenuous in the extreme.

BUT PLEASE DO NOT START ME ON THE NHS - the biggest employer in Europe and probably the least efficient. Yes bits of it are superb and the employees wonderful but when you see the figures for MRSA infections for example compared to those in Private Hospitals, and look at dentistry in the UK, and the fact that certain operations can be done quicker in Europe and possibly India now, you realise that political interference has all but ruined the original idea.

First political mistake was overruling the medics so that only those ill were treated. Far more cost effective to screen to prevent desease rather than do damage limitation once it has happened.

Second political mistake (not by this government but the previous idiots) was to shut down the small hospitals and centres of excellence and put all kinds of sick people in one great big building then remove any semblance of Barrier Nursing by taking away the God Like authority of the Matron. Any student of evolution will realise this creates a niche for an opportunistic infection and of course we got it.

Personally I think I would rather be treated at my local Vets rather than in the local District Hospital. They certainly have better hygiene standards than the ward my Mother in Law was in.

Sorry - rant over. What ARE you doing with that Dafodil Nurse?

 

[Steve L]

Not sure about how paying 80% tax on fuel somehow pays for the NHS - I am sure the NHS does require more tax than the National Insurance Contributions we and our employers pay but any other link than that is tenuous in the extreme.

BUT PLEASE DO NOT START ME ON THE NHS - the biggest employer in Europe and probably the least efficient. Yes bits of it are superb and the employees wonderful but when you see the figures for MRSA infections for example compared to those in Private Hospitals, and look at dentistry in the UK, and the fact that certain operations can be done quicker in Europe and possibly India now, you realise that political interference has all but ruined the original idea.

First political mistake was overruling the medics so that only those ill were treated. Far more cost effective to screen to prevent desease rather than do damage limitation once it has happened.

Second political mistake (not by this government but the previous idiots) was to shut down the small hospitals and centres of excellence and put all kinds of sick people in one great big building then remove any semblance of Barrier Nursing by taking away the God Like authority of the Matron. Any student of evolution will realise this creates a niche for an opportunistic infection and of course we got it.

Personally I think I would rather be treated at my local Vets rather than in the local District Hospital. They certainly have better hygiene standards than the ward my Mother in Law was in.

Sorry - rant over. What ARE you doing with that Dafodil Nurse?

Here Here.I'm with you on this.

Most of my family have health problems and quite frankly I struggle to understand where my tax and NI contrabutions are spent, because we often have to do 30 miles plus to get to a hospital.

The old cottage hospitals workedfine and those who were patients in residence made a quicker and more positive recovery than you do now in the battery cages you get today.

 

[RogerL_5041474]

In any one area all fuels are identical, apart from the additives. In the Midlands fuel is pumped underground in the UK Oil Pipeline from the refinery to the distribution where ALL the brands including supermarkets fill up their tankers from the same bulk supplies.

What does vary is the amount and quality of the additives. There's much less in supermarket fuel than oil company fuel.

The answer is to use cheap supermarket fuel and add 50ml of Redex Cleaner (Carburettor, Injection or Diesel as appropriate) every 1000 miles.

 

[rob_jax]

RogerL

Or if you can get it, the equivalent volume of Xylene. But if you really must have Redex or Bardahl, you could always colour the Xylene red or green.

Robert

 

[Kirkyy]

Hello,

It's quite ironic that our current high petrol prices are as a direct result of the current problems in the Middle East, and yet the price of petrol in Iraq today is just 5 pence a gallon. Yes that's 5p per gallon!!!

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Not sure about how paying 80% tax on fuel somehow pays for the NHS - I am sure the NHS does require more tax than the National Insurance Contributions we and our employers pay but any other link than that is tenuous in the extreme.

BUT PLEASE DO NOT START ME ON THE NHS - the biggest employer in Europe and probably the least efficient. Yes bits of it are superb and the employees wonderful but when you see the figures for MRSA infections for example compared to those in Private Hospitals, and look at dentistry in the UK, and the fact that certain operations can be done quicker in Europe and possibly India now, you realise that political interference has all but ruined the original idea.

First political mistake was overruling the medics so that only those ill were treated. Far more cost effective to screen to prevent desease rather than do damage limitation once it has happened.

Second political mistake (not by this government but the previous idiots) was to shut down the small hospitals and centres of excellence and put all kinds of sick people in one great big building then remove any semblance of Barrier Nursing by taking away the God Like authority of the Matron. Any student of evolution will realise this creates a niche for an opportunistic infection and of course we got it.

Personally I think I would rather be treated at my local Vets rather than in the local District Hospital. They certainly have better hygiene standards than the ward my Mother in Law was in.

Sorry - rant over. What ARE you doing with that Dafodil Nurse?

I have only rteurned just home from a short break and must add my little bit why the NHS is so much in debt is because of the bumbling buffoons at the top. For examlpe I have recently been informed that in Morriston Hospital, Swansea that there is at present more managers than patient beds. This information was given to me by a senior member of the staff. The money is not reaching the caring and dedicated medical staff whether it be doctors or nurses. Right I have thrown my five penneth in - any comments?

 

[colin(bridgend)]

I have only rteurned just home from a short break and must add my little bit why the NHS is so much in debt is because of the bumbling buffoons at the top. For examlpe I have recently been informed that in Morriston Hospital, Swansea that there is at present more managers than patient beds. This information was given to me by a senior member of the staff. The money is not reaching the caring and dedicated medical staff whether it be doctors or nurses. Right I have thrown my five penneth in - any comments?

As evident my spelling has not as yet caught up with the fact that my holiday is over and it must get back into gear - SORRY