I have a Swift Conqueror 655. My fourth gas regulator failed, i.e. gummed up last week on my first hol. of the year. It was only installed on my last holiday in Sept last year i.e. it only worked for about two weeks! Has anyone got a permanent solution? I am desperate!
Gas Regulator failed/gummed up.Any solutions?
- Thread starter AllanH
- Start date
Hi Allan
Is yours a bulkhead mounted regulator?
Four failures is unusual.
When each failed unit was replaced did you or the dealer change the flexible hose?
I assume you haven't been using the same gas cylinder for all four regulators?
If a dealer changed the last one demand a replacement and permanent fix under guarantee.
Is yours a bulkhead mounted regulator?
Four failures is unusual.
When each failed unit was replaced did you or the dealer change the flexible hose?
I assume you haven't been using the same gas cylinder for all four regulators?
If a dealer changed the last one demand a replacement and permanent fix under guarantee.
Damian
Moderator
The Truma regulators are not covered for failure due to oiling up.
The solution if you want to keep the truma regulator is to pay out for a new regulator plus another £70 for the in line filter, and after that £24 for replacement filters.
A different regulator, namely the Clesse regulator is available and will NOT suffer from blocking as it is a single stage regulator,whereas the Truma is a two stage regulator.
The downside of the Clesse is that any oil residue will go into the pipework where over time may block the pipework or affect the gas valves.
The pigtail is NOT the cause of the problem, it is the gas cylinder, or rather what is inside the gas cylinder other than gas.
Unfortunately there is no permanent guaranteed solution, the oiling problem affects all kinds of installations including all Stainless Steel types.
I do know that Bailey changed to fitting Cleese regulators due to the number of Truma failures.
The solution if you want to keep the truma regulator is to pay out for a new regulator plus another £70 for the in line filter, and after that £24 for replacement filters.
A different regulator, namely the Clesse regulator is available and will NOT suffer from blocking as it is a single stage regulator,whereas the Truma is a two stage regulator.
The downside of the Clesse is that any oil residue will go into the pipework where over time may block the pipework or affect the gas valves.
The pigtail is NOT the cause of the problem, it is the gas cylinder, or rather what is inside the gas cylinder other than gas.
Unfortunately there is no permanent guaranteed solution, the oiling problem affects all kinds of installations including all Stainless Steel types.
I do know that Bailey changed to fitting Cleese regulators due to the number of Truma failures.
Hi Dustydog, Thank you for your reply. The hose has never been changed. It is rubber, 8 years old. The same gas cylinder on the last two failures.
Hi Damian, thank you for your reply. I am going to give all this info some thought! Do you know if both types of gas have the same problem?
AllanH said:
Change the hose ( are you sure it's been on for 8 years ) ?
hmy:Get another cylinder to try ( are your's the old 6kg one's ? )
Damian
Moderator
Hello Allan, yes both Butane and Propane exhibit the same issues.
The pigtail at 8 years old should have been replaced ,preferably every 3 years and the cylinder you are using should not be used again as it obviously has considerable contaminate inside it.
If you do want to still use it, ensure that you disconnect the pigtail and burn off any gas still in it via the cooker.
Before reconnecting the pigtail on arrival at site, let the contents settle after the journey whilst you get the rest of the van set up, then open the cylinder valve a little to blow any residue away from the connection, then reconnect the pigtail and open the cylinder fully as normal.
The pigtail at 8 years old should have been replaced ,preferably every 3 years and the cylinder you are using should not be used again as it obviously has considerable contaminate inside it.
If you do want to still use it, ensure that you disconnect the pigtail and burn off any gas still in it via the cooker.
Before reconnecting the pigtail on arrival at site, let the contents settle after the journey whilst you get the rest of the van set up, then open the cylinder valve a little to blow any residue away from the connection, then reconnect the pigtail and open the cylinder fully as normal.
Hello Allen,
If your hose is genuinely rubber then that is a very possible cause for your problem. Natural rubber is dissolved by LPG which is why rubber hoses should not be used.
The correct flexible hoses for LPG should be manufactured from synthetic materials like Neoprene. They should also have a manufacturing date and BS3212 or BSEN1763 printed on them. but it is considered the normal useful service life of such hoses is 5 years.
BS3212 or BSEN1763 is for low pressure operations where as BS3212/2 or BSEN1763B is for high pressure work.
If your hose is genuinely rubber then that is a very possible cause for your problem. Natural rubber is dissolved by LPG which is why rubber hoses should not be used.
The correct flexible hoses for LPG should be manufactured from synthetic materials like Neoprene. They should also have a manufacturing date and BS3212 or BSEN1763 printed on them. but it is considered the normal useful service life of such hoses is 5 years.
BS3212 or BSEN1763 is for low pressure operations where as BS3212/2 or BSEN1763B is for high pressure work.
Yes, my cylinders are old 6kg ones. Is that a problem? If so, what's the solution?
Thanks for the reply!
Thanks for the reply!
AllanH said:
Hello Allan,
Are you saying you own your own cylinders and they are old?
Its not specifically the age of the cylinder that's the problem, The BS and EN standards for the production of LPG allows a range of other fractions of the process to be allowed through. Some of these can become oily or waxy, These are generally more dense and usually less volatile than the Butane or Propane we want, so will tend to be left inside the cylinders. So the older the cylinder is, the greater the probability that residues and non LPG products can build up. The quantities are usually quite small, so unless the cylinders have been shaken a lot or stored on their sides or upside down this is not usually problem.
Cylinders should always be stored, transported and used upright.
In practice you cant choose a cleaner supplier, so your stuck with what available where you buy it. If you are using Calor or any other rental supplier, then the owners of the cylinders will periodically clean and check the safety of the cylinders so they are likely to be 'cleaner' than customer owned cylinders.
If you own your own cylinders, then you should factor in periodic cleaning and safety pressure testing as part of your long term ownership. This would normally be arranged with your cylinder supplier/manufacture.
Bill.
Are you turning into a Sproket. A mine of information B)
Are the stainless steel pipes flexible or rigid?
If flexible what lining makes them gas tight?
In regard to the section about pressure in the hose I didn't get it.
surely the pressure in the pipe remains the same whether the regulator is bottle bulkhead mounted.
Turning an appliance off doesn't stop the LPG remaining at pressure in the pipe.Or does it :huh:
Are you turning into a Sproket. A mine of information B)
Are the stainless steel pipes flexible or rigid?
If flexible what lining makes them gas tight?
In regard to the section about pressure in the hose I didn't get it.
surely the pressure in the pipe remains the same whether the regulator is bottle bulkhead mounted.
Turning an appliance off doesn't stop the LPG remaining at pressure in the pipe.Or does it :huh:
With the old bottle mounted regulator the high pressure gas is contained in the bottle via the bottle tap...
With the bulkhead regulator that same high pressure is then contained in the pigtail upto the regulator when the tap is open.
The lining will more than likely be PTFE onthe stainless steel pigtails
With the bulkhead regulator that same high pressure is then contained in the pigtail upto the regulator when the tap is open.
The lining will more than likely be PTFE onthe stainless steel pigtails
Dustydog said:
Hi Alan.........as you know the old cylinder regulators were almost 100% reliable ( I still use one) so what has changed with the newer bulkhead regulators must be the cause of the blockage problems.
Calor say the gas has not changed.
The pigtail is an extra bit of kit that was not present in the pipework with the old regulators.
The old regulators were always above the cylinder under the old system.
The new regulators work at a different outlet pressures to the old ones.
No one seems to know what is the definitive cause of the new regulator blockages :blink:
PS .........there is only one Sprocket!!
Gafferbill & anyone who might know.
Is it acceptable to modify the gas supply system from a bulkhead mounted regulator to the old bottle mounted type?
AllanH (Sutton Coldfield)
Is it acceptable to modify the gas supply system from a bulkhead mounted regulator to the old bottle mounted type?
AllanH (Sutton Coldfield)
I would buy a Cleese replacement from here
And get a different bottle of gas, out of curiosity it it the same bottle that you have had fitted when the other regulators have failed ?
And get a different bottle of gas, out of curiosity it it the same bottle that you have had fitted when the other regulators have failed ?
Hi Sproket,
Same bottle for 2 failures. Do you know about converting to a bottle mounted regulator?
Cheers AllanH
Same bottle for 2 failures. Do you know about converting to a bottle mounted regulator?
Cheers AllanH
I make no apologies for such a long posting. If you are interested in a possible explanation of the oiled up regulators and similar issues the read on. But if not then I suggest you leave this post now.
For any business or organisation who may be conducting investigations into this problem, then please feel free to use or develop any of the ideas here in, but I would like to be acknowledged in any conclusions or publications.
The issue of contamination in LPG gas pipes is not new. When I worked for a major OEM supplier to the industry 20 years ago, we saw a few appliances or parts returned to us for inspection where the gas valves had been compromised by an viscous oily residue. Inspection showed the residue did not only affect our products but also the carcase pipework in the caravan. It tended to collect at the lowest points in the pipes and appliances. As the residue was also found upstream of our appliances, our appliances could not be the cause of the residue, merely the victim. and as the incidence was estimated to be very low (less than 1 in 10,000) there was no impetus for the business to spend money to make detailed investigations. I suspect initially Truma may have taken a similar view, in the context of the statistical scale of the problem. Ultimately Truma's problem seems to have been greater and they have undertaken more extensive research and have concluded the source of the residue is not hard equipment related.
It is a logical conclusion that contaminants have been introduced into the systems, and the most likely sources are the gas cylinders or pigtails.
This most recent thread has set me thinking further about the problem. As I saw this phenomenon over 20 years ago, the problem was concurrent with cylinder mounted regulators and predates bulkhead regulators.
However I do recall that whilst investigating an unrelated incident where an LPG regulator over pressured a caravan system, we looked at the effect of water collecting on the regulators diaphragm and freezing. we looked and investigated various different makes of regulators. From memory I do recall some did have what appeared to be lubrication of the injector needle valve linkages, but perhaps this might have been the oily deposits we are concerned with here!
What this suggests is it may have been a process that affects all LPG systems but its just that some regulator designs are more sensitive to it that others.
I no longer have access to laboratory systems, I cannot therefore conduct any formal research, but I do have a hypothesis of how heavy ends in the LPG cylinders can migrate to the caravans pipework and appliances. This would include the current bulkhead style regulators.
Commercial Butane and Propane are not scientifically high purity gasses. The manufacturing BS and EN production process will centre on either (Butane C4H10) or (Propane C3H8) but will also allow other fractions in some proportions to be included. These may include heavy fractions such as oils which do not vapourise as easily such Butane and Propane.
The usual process to fill LPG cylinders, is to compress the gas so it forms a vapour (This is a mist of small droplets of condensed gas) Having a physical globular size, they may attach small quantities of contaminants, and as they are pumped to the cylinders the contaminants are dragged along, just like when we get Saharan sand in our rain. So there is a mechanism for some heavier oils to be picked up carried into the cylinders. These heavier components are called heavy ends.
It may not be widely known, but the content of your LPG cylinder has to BOIL for it to allow you to use the gas. Inside a working cylinder, there will be body of liquified gas at the bottom with a layer of pressurised vapour above it. As you use the gas, the pressure in the gas vapour drops and just like a pressure cooker the liquid will begin to boil to release more vapour in an attempt to replace the gas drawn off and balance the pressure. Boiling is quite a vigorous process and it is likely it will disperse some of the contaminants into the vapour cloud above the liquid, and so they may also be drawn off and pass into the caravans systems.
When air is relatively warm it can carry a greater mass of water vapour, and when it cools, it has to give up some of that moisture as condensation or rain. The same will apply to the gas vapour carrying contaminants leaving the cylinder. As it enters the regulator its at high pressure, and at a given temperature. But as it passes through the needle valve in the regulator, its pressure is reduced substantially and the gas vapour expands expands. When a gas expands it cools, and that cooling could cause the gas vapour to drop some of its contaminante inside the low pressure chambre of the regulator.
Now that might explain the issue with the regulators, but the same pressure temperature issues can affect other parts of the system. In many caravans some of the gas pipe work is under the caravan floor, and exposed to the elements. It is likely to be substantially cooler than other parts of the system, and as such the contaminated vapour is likely to deposit contaminations in these areas. As the contaminants are liquids, they will naturally seek the lowest points in their part of the system. Gas valves or burners usually have small injector nozzles and aso are more prone to blockage.
For any business or organisation who may be conducting investigations into this problem, then please feel free to use or develop any of the ideas here in, but I would like to be acknowledged in any conclusions or publications.
The issue of contamination in LPG gas pipes is not new. When I worked for a major OEM supplier to the industry 20 years ago, we saw a few appliances or parts returned to us for inspection where the gas valves had been compromised by an viscous oily residue. Inspection showed the residue did not only affect our products but also the carcase pipework in the caravan. It tended to collect at the lowest points in the pipes and appliances. As the residue was also found upstream of our appliances, our appliances could not be the cause of the residue, merely the victim. and as the incidence was estimated to be very low (less than 1 in 10,000) there was no impetus for the business to spend money to make detailed investigations. I suspect initially Truma may have taken a similar view, in the context of the statistical scale of the problem. Ultimately Truma's problem seems to have been greater and they have undertaken more extensive research and have concluded the source of the residue is not hard equipment related.
It is a logical conclusion that contaminants have been introduced into the systems, and the most likely sources are the gas cylinders or pigtails.
This most recent thread has set me thinking further about the problem. As I saw this phenomenon over 20 years ago, the problem was concurrent with cylinder mounted regulators and predates bulkhead regulators.
However I do recall that whilst investigating an unrelated incident where an LPG regulator over pressured a caravan system, we looked at the effect of water collecting on the regulators diaphragm and freezing. we looked and investigated various different makes of regulators. From memory I do recall some did have what appeared to be lubrication of the injector needle valve linkages, but perhaps this might have been the oily deposits we are concerned with here!
What this suggests is it may have been a process that affects all LPG systems but its just that some regulator designs are more sensitive to it that others.
I no longer have access to laboratory systems, I cannot therefore conduct any formal research, but I do have a hypothesis of how heavy ends in the LPG cylinders can migrate to the caravans pipework and appliances. This would include the current bulkhead style regulators.
Commercial Butane and Propane are not scientifically high purity gasses. The manufacturing BS and EN production process will centre on either (Butane C4H10) or (Propane C3H8) but will also allow other fractions in some proportions to be included. These may include heavy fractions such as oils which do not vapourise as easily such Butane and Propane.
The usual process to fill LPG cylinders, is to compress the gas so it forms a vapour (This is a mist of small droplets of condensed gas) Having a physical globular size, they may attach small quantities of contaminants, and as they are pumped to the cylinders the contaminants are dragged along, just like when we get Saharan sand in our rain. So there is a mechanism for some heavier oils to be picked up carried into the cylinders. These heavier components are called heavy ends.
It may not be widely known, but the content of your LPG cylinder has to BOIL for it to allow you to use the gas. Inside a working cylinder, there will be body of liquified gas at the bottom with a layer of pressurised vapour above it. As you use the gas, the pressure in the gas vapour drops and just like a pressure cooker the liquid will begin to boil to release more vapour in an attempt to replace the gas drawn off and balance the pressure. Boiling is quite a vigorous process and it is likely it will disperse some of the contaminants into the vapour cloud above the liquid, and so they may also be drawn off and pass into the caravans systems.
When air is relatively warm it can carry a greater mass of water vapour, and when it cools, it has to give up some of that moisture as condensation or rain. The same will apply to the gas vapour carrying contaminants leaving the cylinder. As it enters the regulator its at high pressure, and at a given temperature. But as it passes through the needle valve in the regulator, its pressure is reduced substantially and the gas vapour expands expands. When a gas expands it cools, and that cooling could cause the gas vapour to drop some of its contaminante inside the low pressure chambre of the regulator.
Now that might explain the issue with the regulators, but the same pressure temperature issues can affect other parts of the system. In many caravans some of the gas pipe work is under the caravan floor, and exposed to the elements. It is likely to be substantially cooler than other parts of the system, and as such the contaminated vapour is likely to deposit contaminations in these areas. As the contaminants are liquids, they will naturally seek the lowest points in their part of the system. Gas valves or burners usually have small injector nozzles and aso are more prone to blockage.
Damian
Moderator
Quote " Damian describes the Truma Regulator as being a single stage regulator"
OH NO he does NOT !!!!!!
The Truma regulator is a two stage regulator, the Clesse is a single stage regulator.
OH NO he does NOT !!!!!!
The Truma regulator is a two stage regulator, the Clesse is a single stage regulator.
Than you Damian.
Bang goes my theory- well at least part of it. I have removed the said paragraph.
Any further thoughts on the rest of it?
Bang goes my theory- well at least part of it. I have removed the said paragraph.
Any further thoughts on the rest of it?
I thought the problem was high-pressure LPG causing leaching of chemicals from the inside surface of the pigtail flexible pipe - it didn't occur in the low-pressure flexible pipe of cylinder-mounted regulator installations.
As I understand it, it can be minimised by ensuring the high-pressure pigtail slopes down from the regulator to the cylinder so that any contaminant runs down back into the cylinder - and - using stainless steel pigtails which reduces the leaching.
This was certainly the reason given for modifying the regulator mounting to ensure the pigtail was attached on the side or bottom, but never on the top.
As I understand it, it can be minimised by ensuring the high-pressure pigtail slopes down from the regulator to the cylinder so that any contaminant runs down back into the cylinder - and - using stainless steel pigtails which reduces the leaching.
This was certainly the reason given for modifying the regulator mounting to ensure the pigtail was attached on the side or bottom, but never on the top.
Damian
Moderator
The problem is, no one is accepting the blame, or offering a cast iron reason for the problem.
The issue has only been highlighted as such since the introduction of the bulkhead regulator,and specifically the Truma regulator which is a two stage regulator.
All kinds of theories have been put forward but there are flaws in each theory.
First, the Pigtail, it has been suggested that the plasticisers in the pigtails are the cause, but there is too much oily residue to be that , or the pigtails would shrivel and fall apart, which they do not.
Secondly the gas itself, as said, LPG is not a "sterile" product, it is an oil by product extracted during the processing of Crude for petroleum from the fracker, it is not a pure product as such.
Then there is the testing and cleaning of cylinders.
Emptying the cylinders used to be done every time they were returned and the "heavy ends" burnt off, but that was stopped thanks to the environmentalists and is now only done every 10 years at the time the cylinders are pressure tested, but that leaves the product used to pressure test as a film inside the cylinder.
The oily residue if left in the open air evaporates quite quickly which means that it is a quite volatile substance .
The problem has been found to be present in all kinds of installations including fully piped in Stainless Steel, which again raises the question of what is it, and why does it only affect some and not all installations?
The old style cylinder mounted regulator system seemed to be fault free, but it was not.
The oily residue was still present but passed through the single stage regulators without blocking them but would over time either block the van pipework or get to the appliance jets and cause damage to them.
I do know that Truma spent a fortune trying to figure the problem out and are still as wise as we are now,which is not having a satisfactory answer, so the best they have come up with is an in line filter with replaceable filters, but at quite a high price.
What is the answer,,,,,I do not know, but unless someone spends a huge amount of money to find out we will never know, and the LPG market which is affected by the problem, which seems to be the leisure market, is not big enough to warrant that kind of expenditure.
The commercial market for LPG does not have the same problems.
What cannot help the situation is that caravan cylinders are shaken about during travel and not left long enough when on site for all the shaken liquids to drop to the bottom of the cylinder, and the take off valve is not cleared before connecting to the van pipework.
If I knew the answer to the problem and had a fix for it, or a concrete explanation for it, I would be posting this from a sun soaked private Island whilst laying in the sun with every whim and fancy taken care of, instead of on a rain soaked Island off the South Coast being battered by gale force winds !!!!!!!
The issue has only been highlighted as such since the introduction of the bulkhead regulator,and specifically the Truma regulator which is a two stage regulator.
All kinds of theories have been put forward but there are flaws in each theory.
First, the Pigtail, it has been suggested that the plasticisers in the pigtails are the cause, but there is too much oily residue to be that , or the pigtails would shrivel and fall apart, which they do not.
Secondly the gas itself, as said, LPG is not a "sterile" product, it is an oil by product extracted during the processing of Crude for petroleum from the fracker, it is not a pure product as such.
Then there is the testing and cleaning of cylinders.
Emptying the cylinders used to be done every time they were returned and the "heavy ends" burnt off, but that was stopped thanks to the environmentalists and is now only done every 10 years at the time the cylinders are pressure tested, but that leaves the product used to pressure test as a film inside the cylinder.
The oily residue if left in the open air evaporates quite quickly which means that it is a quite volatile substance .
The problem has been found to be present in all kinds of installations including fully piped in Stainless Steel, which again raises the question of what is it, and why does it only affect some and not all installations?
The old style cylinder mounted regulator system seemed to be fault free, but it was not.
The oily residue was still present but passed through the single stage regulators without blocking them but would over time either block the van pipework or get to the appliance jets and cause damage to them.
I do know that Truma spent a fortune trying to figure the problem out and are still as wise as we are now,which is not having a satisfactory answer, so the best they have come up with is an in line filter with replaceable filters, but at quite a high price.
What is the answer,,,,,I do not know, but unless someone spends a huge amount of money to find out we will never know, and the LPG market which is affected by the problem, which seems to be the leisure market, is not big enough to warrant that kind of expenditure.
The commercial market for LPG does not have the same problems.
What cannot help the situation is that caravan cylinders are shaken about during travel and not left long enough when on site for all the shaken liquids to drop to the bottom of the cylinder, and the take off valve is not cleared before connecting to the van pipework.
If I knew the answer to the problem and had a fix for it, or a concrete explanation for it, I would be posting this from a sun soaked private Island whilst laying in the sun with every whim and fancy taken care of, instead of on a rain soaked Island off the South Coast being battered by gale force winds !!!!!!!
If I have understood The Prof, Damian and Bill's pearls of wisdom,
the pigtail with a bulkhead mounted regulator will always contain a higher pressure than the pigtail where the regulator is cylinder mounted.
The Prof's thesis seems credible regarding the boiling and pick up of contaminated particles.
Since 1978 other than my last three caravans, I have always had a cylinder mounted regulator.
None of the last three regulators have failed. The Wyoming one is positioned on the bulkhead higher than the cylinder top.
We use two or three cylinders a year purchased form all over the country.
Are Calor cylinders refilled at various depots around the country?
the pigtail with a bulkhead mounted regulator will always contain a higher pressure than the pigtail where the regulator is cylinder mounted.
The Prof's thesis seems credible regarding the boiling and pick up of contaminated particles.
Since 1978 other than my last three caravans, I have always had a cylinder mounted regulator.
None of the last three regulators have failed. The Wyoming one is positioned on the bulkhead higher than the cylinder top.
We use two or three cylinders a year purchased form all over the country.
Are Calor cylinders refilled at various depots around the country?
AllanH said:
.........if I had the trouble you describe with the gas regulator on my caravan then I would follow Sprocket's advice and have a Clesse 30mb regulator fitted.
I would have it installed on the bulkhead so that it is mounted above the gas cylinder outlet valve.
I personally do not think the gas product is the problem.
Damian
Moderator
Quote " Is it acceptable to modify the gas supply system from a bulkhead mounted regulator to the old bottle mounted type?"
Yes and no,
Yes the system can be changed to a cylinder mounted regulator but the regulator MUST be a 30mB variety.
NO, you CANNOT fit a 37mB regulator to the system, which is what is normally available in the UK.
Yes and no,
Yes the system can be changed to a cylinder mounted regulator but the regulator MUST be a 30mB variety.
NO, you CANNOT fit a 37mB regulator to the system, which is what is normally available in the UK.
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