At the end of the day MH - you pays your money you take your choice.
Personally I am not short of circa
Personally I am not short of circa
Sorry ment to reply
Actually Clive,
The Road Transport legislation is the same it's just the DG category's are different rated on the UN codes but transportation of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Enternox, or Propane, Acetylene etc are all governed by the same bit of law. It just respects the different characteristics and applies rules based on a Varity of factors.
As for the comment about the NHS - well the biggest user of gases as one of our other regular contributors will tell you are the Ambulance service - very mobile.
On the basis that there have been no reported incidents of Gaslow containers being at fault or dangerous incidents I think one will be on order soon. (now where could I spend that
Actually Clive,
The Road Transport legislation is the same it's just the DG category's are different rated on the UN codes but transportation of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Enternox, or Propane, Acetylene etc are all governed by the same bit of law. It just respects the different characteristics and applies rules based on a Varity of factors.
As for the comment about the NHS - well the biggest user of gases as one of our other regular contributors will tell you are the Ambulance service - very mobile.
On the basis that there have been no reported incidents of Gaslow containers being at fault or dangerous incidents I think one will be on order soon. (now where could I spend that
Monkey why say Clives on a "crusade" I to was confused and concered about this topic myself and he seems to have done some research which has highlighted what I was concered about, It would appear to me that this system works saftly only if you take the caravan to the filling station which is not practical IMHO so I'll stick to Calor and make sure if I'm ever at a filling staion and see some one filling a portable bottle I get the hell out of there pronto.
Thank you Clive,
Having spent much time in the LPG industry, and dealing with safety issues and also some investigations following LPG incidents, I was concerned at the arrival of these 'plastic' bottles, and the issues of long term reliability and refilling.
Gas safety is one of my pet subjects, and I am highly aware of the potential dangers of LPG leaks. I use a number of incident reports to highlight the dangers of incorrect usage to Scout + Guide groups etc. It amazes some groups of how much energy is bound up even in the smaller single use canisters, and how much explosive mixture can be release by a leaky valve, joint or seal.
I also balance these talks with the benefits of LPG, and used properly it is a wonderful fuel.
The design of plastic tanks whether for LPG or other fluids is fraught with hidden problems. Compared to steel, all plastics are relatively flexible, and where a plastic container is repeatedly taken through wide pressure variations and where temperature changes also occur, plastics will flex, some permanent deformation will set in and, and where there is a change in the surface shape especially at corners the constant working will weaken the plastic, leading to rupture. I have seen plastic tanks for water rupture in under a year where as the replacement steel ones have never failed in over 10 years.
It was over a year ago that I investigated the pro's & cons of the Kevlar LPG bottles offered by a Gloucestershire firm. Despite quite protracted enquiries and searches, at that time I could not find any details of recognised UK approvals for the bottles, and I also found that there was considerable reluctance for refilling depots to agree in writing that they would refill these bottles in the UK. Things may have changed, but I suspected not much, and your comments from the insurance point of view confirm my suspicions.
My concern was also raised at the issue of private ownership of all types of LPG containers designed for refilling, as there is little likely hood that owners would realise the necessity to have the integrity of the bottles periodically proof tested and the valves replaced. As far as I could tell none of the retail suppliers of bottles offered these facilities, and certainly the refill stations would not.
I also found some imported bottles failed to carry the required tare/volume/capacity information, which meant that owners could not know how to fill them to a safe level. Some (from a far eastern source) did not even have excess pressure release valves.
It also transpires that there are different limits on the percentage of fill volume allowed in different countries, so foreign bottles not designed for the UK market may not conform to UK safety standards that allow for thermal expansion of the liquid.
I agree whole-heartedly that by sticking to the bottle rental process the general safety of LPG systems is enhanced, but it is important to also say that Calor are not the only supplier of LPG. Other suppliers may offer cheaper prices, but they may not have the same wide spread dealer network where bottles can be exchanged.
Having spent much time in the LPG industry, and dealing with safety issues and also some investigations following LPG incidents, I was concerned at the arrival of these 'plastic' bottles, and the issues of long term reliability and refilling.
Gas safety is one of my pet subjects, and I am highly aware of the potential dangers of LPG leaks. I use a number of incident reports to highlight the dangers of incorrect usage to Scout + Guide groups etc. It amazes some groups of how much energy is bound up even in the smaller single use canisters, and how much explosive mixture can be release by a leaky valve, joint or seal.
I also balance these talks with the benefits of LPG, and used properly it is a wonderful fuel.
The design of plastic tanks whether for LPG or other fluids is fraught with hidden problems. Compared to steel, all plastics are relatively flexible, and where a plastic container is repeatedly taken through wide pressure variations and where temperature changes also occur, plastics will flex, some permanent deformation will set in and, and where there is a change in the surface shape especially at corners the constant working will weaken the plastic, leading to rupture. I have seen plastic tanks for water rupture in under a year where as the replacement steel ones have never failed in over 10 years.
It was over a year ago that I investigated the pro's & cons of the Kevlar LPG bottles offered by a Gloucestershire firm. Despite quite protracted enquiries and searches, at that time I could not find any details of recognised UK approvals for the bottles, and I also found that there was considerable reluctance for refilling depots to agree in writing that they would refill these bottles in the UK. Things may have changed, but I suspected not much, and your comments from the insurance point of view confirm my suspicions.
My concern was also raised at the issue of private ownership of all types of LPG containers designed for refilling, as there is little likely hood that owners would realise the necessity to have the integrity of the bottles periodically proof tested and the valves replaced. As far as I could tell none of the retail suppliers of bottles offered these facilities, and certainly the refill stations would not.
I also found some imported bottles failed to carry the required tare/volume/capacity information, which meant that owners could not know how to fill them to a safe level. Some (from a far eastern source) did not even have excess pressure release valves.
It also transpires that there are different limits on the percentage of fill volume allowed in different countries, so foreign bottles not designed for the UK market may not conform to UK safety standards that allow for thermal expansion of the liquid.
I agree whole-heartedly that by sticking to the bottle rental process the general safety of LPG systems is enhanced, but it is important to also say that Calor are not the only supplier of LPG. Other suppliers may offer cheaper prices, but they may not have the same wide spread dealer network where bottles can be exchanged.
Hi John
I too contacted the Gloucester firm after seeing a report in a caravan magazine on the refillable plastic cylinders.
As an advocate of LPG as a fuel - I was VERY interested.
However - EXACTLY as you have pointed out above - NONE of the safety issues that had been so well explained by the LPGA and the installer I used for my car conversion, seemed to be of ANY concern to this firm.
So I agree 100% with your comprehensive analysis.
As an IFA I then checked with the underwriters at a couple of Insurance Houses and was told that anyone having one of these unmarked unregulated cylinders on board was not insured and that the Garage was not insured if it allowed one to be re-filled.
Despite what MH says I am on NO CRUSADE whatsoever - Why would I be?
What would I gain from it?
Unfortunately, once again peoples ego's seem to be more important to them than anything else.
I too contacted the Gloucester firm after seeing a report in a caravan magazine on the refillable plastic cylinders.
As an advocate of LPG as a fuel - I was VERY interested.
However - EXACTLY as you have pointed out above - NONE of the safety issues that had been so well explained by the LPGA and the installer I used for my car conversion, seemed to be of ANY concern to this firm.
So I agree 100% with your comprehensive analysis.
As an IFA I then checked with the underwriters at a couple of Insurance Houses and was told that anyone having one of these unmarked unregulated cylinders on board was not insured and that the Garage was not insured if it allowed one to be re-filled.
Despite what MH says I am on NO CRUSADE whatsoever - Why would I be?
What would I gain from it?
Unfortunately, once again peoples ego's seem to be more important to them than anything else.
Also meant to point out that the issue of transporting gases really is irrelevant - the issue is where can the cylinders of any type be refilled. Even non flammable substances have rules on how a cylinder can be refilled.
H&S legislation in the UK is clear on this. But at the moment there is NO legislation covering refillable cylinders other than within a proper regulated workplace.
You pays your money - you takes your choice - but with a volatile gas like LPG if you get it wrong - you may just have time to bend over and kiss your a**e goodbye.
H&S legislation in the UK is clear on this. But at the moment there is NO legislation covering refillable cylinders other than within a proper regulated workplace.
You pays your money - you takes your choice - but with a volatile gas like LPG if you get it wrong - you may just have time to bend over and kiss your a**e goodbye.
Clive V in answer to your question
Q MH - you do this all the time - you flag up a query - expect a certain type of answer - but if you get a result that challenges your expectations or preconceived ideas you "go off on one".
Answer. Once again read the post !!
I didn't have any preconceived ideas I asked the question of a particular make - got some decent replies. Even vented a concern of the Kevlar canisters myself. !!
I asked a question - you vent an opinion (no pun intended) and it's clear you have concerns - Taken on board. However I believe people are are/have been confusing the two types of cylinder available .
I don't believe for one minute that Gaslow is designing/ making/ selling a product that hasn't been designed/ tested/ approved to be safe. After all their insurers must be pretty hot on "liability insurance" as must my two local caravan-motorhome dealers.
Finally Get youself on a CPC or better still DG Transport course quick. either your right or God forbid
BOC, Linde Gas, Air Liquide and Air Products are seriously up **** creek!!!
Kindest regards
MH
Q MH - you do this all the time - you flag up a query - expect a certain type of answer - but if you get a result that challenges your expectations or preconceived ideas you "go off on one".
Answer. Once again read the post !!
I didn't have any preconceived ideas I asked the question of a particular make - got some decent replies. Even vented a concern of the Kevlar canisters myself. !!
I asked a question - you vent an opinion (no pun intended) and it's clear you have concerns - Taken on board. However I believe people are are/have been confusing the two types of cylinder available .
I don't believe for one minute that Gaslow is designing/ making/ selling a product that hasn't been designed/ tested/ approved to be safe. After all their insurers must be pretty hot on "liability insurance" as must my two local caravan-motorhome dealers.
Finally Get youself on a CPC or better still DG Transport course quick. either your right or God forbid
BOC, Linde Gas, Air Liquide and Air Products are seriously up **** creek!!!
Kindest regards
MH
Hello Clive
I have just read teh majority of all teh posts on this topic again, and tehr is one point hta you make that does not ring quite true - regarding the pressure in bottles and tanks.
Provide there is some vapur space above the liquified gas, the pressure in teh bottle will be determind by the type of lpg (i.e. Butane or Propane) and the temperature of the bottle. The same applies to all LPG storage tanks.
I recall someone (was it you?) alluded to a difficulty you experienced in spain when trying to refill a gas tank and the pressure differential prevented adequate filling.
Whilst I cant be sure of the facts (cause I wasn't there,) but when we ask for Propane it is usually a mix of other gasses, and in general the hotter the cliamate the more butane is mixed with the propane. This incerases the caloric value but lowers the vapour pressure.If you had any UK propane in your tank, it would present a higher pressure than the local propane/butane mix.
They can get away with a greater proportion of Butane in thier mix because they don't have the cold temperature isues that occur further north.
I have just read teh majority of all teh posts on this topic again, and tehr is one point hta you make that does not ring quite true - regarding the pressure in bottles and tanks.
Provide there is some vapur space above the liquified gas, the pressure in teh bottle will be determind by the type of lpg (i.e. Butane or Propane) and the temperature of the bottle. The same applies to all LPG storage tanks.
I recall someone (was it you?) alluded to a difficulty you experienced in spain when trying to refill a gas tank and the pressure differential prevented adequate filling.
Whilst I cant be sure of the facts (cause I wasn't there,) but when we ask for Propane it is usually a mix of other gasses, and in general the hotter the cliamate the more butane is mixed with the propane. This incerases the caloric value but lowers the vapour pressure.If you had any UK propane in your tank, it would present a higher pressure than the local propane/butane mix.
They can get away with a greater proportion of Butane in thier mix because they don't have the cold temperature isues that occur further north.
Hi John - I have no doubt you are correct. Only point I would make is that on one occaision it was colder in Santander than it was in Plymouth! - and I still had the problem.
It was a guy from the LPGA who told me that different countries have different "residual pressures" - I think he called it - but it was only a comment in passing.
I get round the problem by not bothering to try to fill up whilst the LPG tank has any in it. This means I am quite literally runing on fumes (not much power!) to empty the tank as much as possible. Then filling in Spain for the first time that trip is not usually a problem and after that refilling no problem at all.
But I do notice that on my 60litre tank I can get 55L in on a refil in the UK - but only about 52L in Spain. Again this would indicate a lower "residual pressure"?
If this is due to the Propane/Butane ratio it would make sense.
Thanks for the info
It was a guy from the LPGA who told me that different countries have different "residual pressures" - I think he called it - but it was only a comment in passing.
I get round the problem by not bothering to try to fill up whilst the LPG tank has any in it. This means I am quite literally runing on fumes (not much power!) to empty the tank as much as possible. Then filling in Spain for the first time that trip is not usually a problem and after that refilling no problem at all.
But I do notice that on my 60litre tank I can get 55L in on a refil in the UK - but only about 52L in Spain. Again this would indicate a lower "residual pressure"?
If this is due to the Propane/Butane ratio it would make sense.
Thanks for the info
MH - what is it with all the antagonism?
The issue is nothing to do with the transport of gas - it is only to so with the refilling of a canister!
If it is done on a site cleared by H&S as fit for purpose then no problem!
The issue is the refilling of ANY type of refillable cylinder at a garage forecourt.
Perhaps you should read this again:-
What is the Health & Safety Issue?
The Health and Safety standard was written for companies filling their own cylinders and did not anticipate the introduction of a refillable cylinder. Under Health and Safety, Gas companies are responsible for checking the condition of their cylinders including the date stamp every time a cylinder is filled. Therefore it is being discussed that when a refillable cylinder is filled at a petrol station this procedure becomes the petrol stations responsibility.
Can you take a cylinder and refill it?
For a properly designed and approved cylinder fitted with approved and certified valves with overfill protection there is no reason why it should not be filled. BUT the difficulty, certainly for the group petrol station owners, is the health and safety issue of having someone who can take the responsibility of distinguishing between a cylinder that should or should not be filled.
SO MY ANTAGONISTIC FRIEND
THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT TRANSPORT IT IS ABOUT THE GARAGE PROPRIATOR HAVING AN EMPLOYEE QUALIFIED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHAT MAY AND MAY NOT BE REFILLED.
WITHOUT SUCH A PERSON ON SITE TO CHECK NO REFILLABLE CYLINDER OF ANY TYPE SHOULD BE FILLED AS TO DO SO WILL RENDER THE GARAGE INSURANCE NULL & VOID.
Rather than recommend others to go on courses irrelevant to the subject in hand - may I suggest that you stop taking it so personally if someone dares to suggest that a notion you have may not be entirely true.
As I have said before - regardless of the spurious comments re transport of gas, NO GARAGE FORECOURT IS INSURED TO REFILL ANY SEPARATE CYLINDER IN THE UK - UNLESS THEY HAVE A QUALIFIED PERSON ON DUTY TO ASSESS THE CYLINDER.
So goodness knows what spurious tangents you will resort to now to balance your dented ego - BUT PLEASE BE ASSURED I AM CORRECT ON THE INSURANCE ISSUE OF REFILLING SEPARATE CYLINDERS OF ANY SORT OUTSIDE OF A PROPERLY REGULATED SITE.
The issue is nothing to do with the transport of gas - it is only to so with the refilling of a canister!
If it is done on a site cleared by H&S as fit for purpose then no problem!
The issue is the refilling of ANY type of refillable cylinder at a garage forecourt.
Perhaps you should read this again:-
What is the Health & Safety Issue?
The Health and Safety standard was written for companies filling their own cylinders and did not anticipate the introduction of a refillable cylinder. Under Health and Safety, Gas companies are responsible for checking the condition of their cylinders including the date stamp every time a cylinder is filled. Therefore it is being discussed that when a refillable cylinder is filled at a petrol station this procedure becomes the petrol stations responsibility.
Can you take a cylinder and refill it?
For a properly designed and approved cylinder fitted with approved and certified valves with overfill protection there is no reason why it should not be filled. BUT the difficulty, certainly for the group petrol station owners, is the health and safety issue of having someone who can take the responsibility of distinguishing between a cylinder that should or should not be filled.
SO MY ANTAGONISTIC FRIEND
THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT TRANSPORT IT IS ABOUT THE GARAGE PROPRIATOR HAVING AN EMPLOYEE QUALIFIED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHAT MAY AND MAY NOT BE REFILLED.
WITHOUT SUCH A PERSON ON SITE TO CHECK NO REFILLABLE CYLINDER OF ANY TYPE SHOULD BE FILLED AS TO DO SO WILL RENDER THE GARAGE INSURANCE NULL & VOID.
Rather than recommend others to go on courses irrelevant to the subject in hand - may I suggest that you stop taking it so personally if someone dares to suggest that a notion you have may not be entirely true.
As I have said before - regardless of the spurious comments re transport of gas, NO GARAGE FORECOURT IS INSURED TO REFILL ANY SEPARATE CYLINDER IN THE UK - UNLESS THEY HAVE A QUALIFIED PERSON ON DUTY TO ASSESS THE CYLINDER.
So goodness knows what spurious tangents you will resort to now to balance your dented ego - BUT PLEASE BE ASSURED I AM CORRECT ON THE INSURANCE ISSUE OF REFILLING SEPARATE CYLINDERS OF ANY SORT OUTSIDE OF A PROPERLY REGULATED SITE.
Common Clive,
What's with the attack!! My post of the Feb 3rd ar 6.00 pm was factually correct and I was only going on what I had witness at a LARGE GAS SUPPLY DEPOT RE the testing of individual by pressure which I didn't see and as Rob-Jax said in an earlier post I did witness the delivery of bulk gas to cylinder by measured amount.
Not once did I mention in that post the transportation of such materials it was in fact your self in a post at 8.53 later that evening. I haven't once disputed your facts re insurance but neither have I ever said that I was planning to refill a canister beside me. I always had the belief that these things should be mounted to your vehicle/caravan and topped up by the appropriate connectors mounted to your van as sold by the Gaslow company and installed by Barrons, Brownhill group, Lowdham leisure etc.
MH
What's with the attack!! My post of the Feb 3rd ar 6.00 pm was factually correct and I was only going on what I had witness at a LARGE GAS SUPPLY DEPOT RE the testing of individual by pressure which I didn't see and as Rob-Jax said in an earlier post I did witness the delivery of bulk gas to cylinder by measured amount.
Not once did I mention in that post the transportation of such materials it was in fact your self in a post at 8.53 later that evening. I haven't once disputed your facts re insurance but neither have I ever said that I was planning to refill a canister beside me. I always had the belief that these things should be mounted to your vehicle/caravan and topped up by the appropriate connectors mounted to your van as sold by the Gaslow company and installed by Barrons, Brownhill group, Lowdham leisure etc.
MH
Sorry Guys to be really thick here, so I take my Car into a garage and fill up with LPG and the attendant doesn't bat an eyelid. Certainly that's what happened when I last drove an LPG car two years ago and I don't think anything has changed.
So I take my Caravan into a filling station and fill the tank via the side portal mounted in the wall of the van (as fitted by the supplying dealer) and the suddenly the rules change?
What happens with a motor home for instance? And surely the comedian Jimmy Carr whose Rover 75 met such an untimely demise in the outside lane of the M40 voided the insurance of every garage he went to?
So I take my Caravan into a filling station and fill the tank via the side portal mounted in the wall of the van (as fitted by the supplying dealer) and the suddenly the rules change?
What happens with a motor home for instance? And surely the comedian Jimmy Carr whose Rover 75 met such an untimely demise in the outside lane of the M40 voided the insurance of every garage he went to?
Hi Monkey & Clive,
Lets all take a step back for a moment and consider if we are actually taking about the same thing or at crossed purposes.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but Monkey, you originally referred to a refillable tank. Having read the postings and the inferences contained, I have changed my perception of what you were actually asking about.
Originally I believed you were referring to a 'refillable tank' like a Calor 7Kg Propane bottle. But I now believe you are referring to a tank that will be permanently fixed to your caravan (i.e. not removed for filling), and filling will be through a permanently sited fitting on the side of the caravan - Yes?
Most of the respondents including myself considered the first interpretation of a portable refillable container, hence the direction of the thread. In the light of this interpretation, I agree with safety concerns raised about filling this type of bottle.
In your own case, provided the tank and filling arrangements have been installed correctly, then there is no difference to filling your caravan or car.
I would point out though you should check with your installer about the periodic proof testing of the tank and valve assemblies.
Does this help??????
Lets all take a step back for a moment and consider if we are actually taking about the same thing or at crossed purposes.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but Monkey, you originally referred to a refillable tank. Having read the postings and the inferences contained, I have changed my perception of what you were actually asking about.
Originally I believed you were referring to a 'refillable tank' like a Calor 7Kg Propane bottle. But I now believe you are referring to a tank that will be permanently fixed to your caravan (i.e. not removed for filling), and filling will be through a permanently sited fitting on the side of the caravan - Yes?
Most of the respondents including myself considered the first interpretation of a portable refillable container, hence the direction of the thread. In the light of this interpretation, I agree with safety concerns raised about filling this type of bottle.
In your own case, provided the tank and filling arrangements have been installed correctly, then there is no difference to filling your caravan or car.
I would point out though you should check with your installer about the periodic proof testing of the tank and valve assemblies.
Does this help??????
John - you are a generous human being.
In contrast -
MH - 2/2/06 @ 10:59 pm
"If refillable cylinders are so bad how come the whole of Australia uses them, in fact they have over 15000 refilling points?. Surely refilling a Gaslow type cylinder is actually safer than filling a petrol car because the vapour is locked in !!
Also as its sitting exactly where a 7kg bottle would sit in the front locker it's probably less subject to stress than a bottle/tank on a gas powered 4 x 4 particularly one that is subject to going off road .
It would be interesting to get the view of a leading caravan insurer or club technical department on this matter."
And :-
MH - 3/2/06 @ 9:55 pm
"I really think your crusade should be aimed at the individuals that convert cars to run on LPG with no qualifications or looking at you neighbours on site or at home that haven't had the gas equipment service properly. There are I believe far more people with safety issues closer to home!!"
Believe me I am far from being on a crusade to save the silly from their own stupidity! But I really do get tired of saying the same thing over ands over so perhaps MH could actually take note this time! PLEASE!!
What happens in Australia is interesting but irrelevant. They have evolved there own system of recycling which involves the cylinder being owned and refilled by individuals. It works well because of there robust legislation. Refillable gas cylinders in the UK is relatively new and as such virtually NO legislation exists whatsoever!
Apart from the bit that says the owner of the site where the refill take place is responsible under UK H&S legislation for anything and everything when a cylinder of any type or condition is refilled!!!!!
In the UK the system evolved whereby the cylinder is owned by the supplier and we exchange a cylinder for refilled one. Hence the onus is on the owner of the cylinder for the safety checks.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT ONE SYSTEM IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER - I AM SAYING YOU CANNOT CONFUSE THE TWO!
We do not have H&S legislation in the UK at present that effectively deals with refillable cylinders OF ANY TYPE!
Metal cylinders with proper safety checks would probably be OK -- AS LONG AS YOU REFILLED AT A CENTRE THAT COULD CONFIRM THAT!
Kevlar/plastic cylinders as advocated by some on this Forum have absolutely no safety data or checking criteria attached to them whatsoever - therefore my advice is NOT to use either type as currently they are lumped together by the underwriters as EVERYBODY KNOWS that no garage forecourt attendant is qualified to tell the difference!
A properly installed LPG system like that in a car or motorhome when in the later case it is used for the fridge/heating/cooking etc and is a permanent system, the system will come with a certificate of conformity as per the LPGA regulations. So no problem.
A stand alone cylinder of any type in the UK does not.
As regards the insurability issue - can I refer to an analogous situation regarding NO2 injection systems in performance cars. You can fit them quite legally to any car -there is nothing on ant statute to stop you. Use on UK roads is not illegal. The performance gain is stunning!
But if you have a system fitted you are not insured - pure and simple.
The same applies to anything but a LPGA certified LPG installation and no amount of bluff or bluster will change that.
As for the transportation of medical gases - just a verbose irrelevance.
In contrast -
MH - 2/2/06 @ 10:59 pm
"If refillable cylinders are so bad how come the whole of Australia uses them, in fact they have over 15000 refilling points?. Surely refilling a Gaslow type cylinder is actually safer than filling a petrol car because the vapour is locked in !!
Also as its sitting exactly where a 7kg bottle would sit in the front locker it's probably less subject to stress than a bottle/tank on a gas powered 4 x 4 particularly one that is subject to going off road .
It would be interesting to get the view of a leading caravan insurer or club technical department on this matter."
And :-
MH - 3/2/06 @ 9:55 pm
"I really think your crusade should be aimed at the individuals that convert cars to run on LPG with no qualifications or looking at you neighbours on site or at home that haven't had the gas equipment service properly. There are I believe far more people with safety issues closer to home!!"
Believe me I am far from being on a crusade to save the silly from their own stupidity! But I really do get tired of saying the same thing over ands over so perhaps MH could actually take note this time! PLEASE!!
What happens in Australia is interesting but irrelevant. They have evolved there own system of recycling which involves the cylinder being owned and refilled by individuals. It works well because of there robust legislation. Refillable gas cylinders in the UK is relatively new and as such virtually NO legislation exists whatsoever!
Apart from the bit that says the owner of the site where the refill take place is responsible under UK H&S legislation for anything and everything when a cylinder of any type or condition is refilled!!!!!
In the UK the system evolved whereby the cylinder is owned by the supplier and we exchange a cylinder for refilled one. Hence the onus is on the owner of the cylinder for the safety checks.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT ONE SYSTEM IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER - I AM SAYING YOU CANNOT CONFUSE THE TWO!
We do not have H&S legislation in the UK at present that effectively deals with refillable cylinders OF ANY TYPE!
Metal cylinders with proper safety checks would probably be OK -- AS LONG AS YOU REFILLED AT A CENTRE THAT COULD CONFIRM THAT!
Kevlar/plastic cylinders as advocated by some on this Forum have absolutely no safety data or checking criteria attached to them whatsoever - therefore my advice is NOT to use either type as currently they are lumped together by the underwriters as EVERYBODY KNOWS that no garage forecourt attendant is qualified to tell the difference!
A properly installed LPG system like that in a car or motorhome when in the later case it is used for the fridge/heating/cooking etc and is a permanent system, the system will come with a certificate of conformity as per the LPGA regulations. So no problem.
A stand alone cylinder of any type in the UK does not.
As regards the insurability issue - can I refer to an analogous situation regarding NO2 injection systems in performance cars. You can fit them quite legally to any car -there is nothing on ant statute to stop you. Use on UK roads is not illegal. The performance gain is stunning!
But if you have a system fitted you are not insured - pure and simple.
The same applies to anything but a LPGA certified LPG installation and no amount of bluff or bluster will change that.
As for the transportation of medical gases - just a verbose irrelevance.
Thanks John L for taking a more rational view. when I asked the question I wasn't aware that a Gaslow Container could be filled up in any other way than with the a permanent coupling and pipe work (it's not marketed in any other way) and I was hoping that more than one person who have fitted this type of arrangement.
I have contacted a couple of dealers who are happy to install or sell a kit and both have told me of no known safety issues indeed one dealer proudly describe it's installation in a 70K motor-home and I think this may be the nub of the issue that the motorhome fraternity are a lot more keen to adopt this technology (and have). Perhaps because they use their vans more often and/or spend longer abroad.
Thank you once again for calmness in the light of such **** May be John (Or Rob Jax) you could answer my question as you seem to have some knowledge of this area but is filling an LPG (mounted) safer than filling you car with unleaded - re my earlier question on vapour lock in ?
Regards a non emotion Husband of a Monkey
I have contacted a couple of dealers who are happy to install or sell a kit and both have told me of no known safety issues indeed one dealer proudly describe it's installation in a 70K motor-home and I think this may be the nub of the issue that the motorhome fraternity are a lot more keen to adopt this technology (and have). Perhaps because they use their vans more often and/or spend longer abroad.
Thank you once again for calmness in the light of such **** May be John (Or Rob Jax) you could answer my question as you seem to have some knowledge of this area but is filling an LPG (mounted) safer than filling you car with unleaded - re my earlier question on vapour lock in ?
Regards a non emotion Husband of a Monkey
Do you know I could almost believe you didn't say what you did regarding refillable cylinders and how they were the norm in Australia!
Got to hand it to you - a neat bit of sidestepping!
Ever been on Come Dancing?
Got to hand it to you - a neat bit of sidestepping!
Ever been on Come Dancing?
Clive I take it you travelled extensively in Australia ??
There's only in site you need to use lpgaustralia.com.au
As they say ....Beauty Mate!!
What are you on MH?
You ask in November about a Corgi engineer checking a LPG installation !!!
Then get all bitter and twisted when, not just me I might add, points out that refillable cylinders on garage forecourts are not allowed/insured.
As for my travels I am off to Brisbane in 2007 for a family wedding - and yes I do have friends in Perth and a niece in Brisbane.
After the wedding we shall be doing what we normally do and take a motorhome on a trip. This time up the coast to Frazer Island and beyond depending on what we feel like.
Quite what my travels have to do with UK H&S legislation has to do with refilling gas cylinders on garage forecourts is somewhat beyond me but I am sure in mentioning it you have your reasons.
What are you on MH?
You ask in November about a Corgi engineer checking a LPG installation !!!
Then get all bitter and twisted when, not just me I might add, points out that refillable cylinders on garage forecourts are not allowed/insured.
As for my travels I am off to Brisbane in 2007 for a family wedding - and yes I do have friends in Perth and a niece in Brisbane.
After the wedding we shall be doing what we normally do and take a motorhome on a trip. This time up the coast to Frazer Island and beyond depending on what we feel like.
Quite what my travels have to do with UK H&S legislation has to do with refilling gas cylinders on garage forecourts is somewhat beyond me but I am sure in mentioning it you have your reasons.
You ask in November about a Corgi engineer checking a LPG installation !!!
Then get all bitter and twisted when, not just me I might add, points out that refillable cylinders on garage forecourts are not allowed/insured.
As for my travels I am off to Brisbane in 2007 for a family wedding - and yes I do have friends in Perth and a niece in Brisbane.
After the wedding we shall be doing what we normally do and take a motorhome on a trip. This time up the coast to Frazer Island and beyond depending on what we feel like.
Quite what my travels have to do with UK H&S legislation has to do with refilling gas cylinders on garage forecourts is somewhat beyond me but I am sure in mentioning it you have your reasons.
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