Hello Clive,
Technically LPG always stands for Liquefied Petroleum Gas. In reality it can be any petroleum gas that can be liquefied, by increasing its vapour pressure or cooling it.
Virtually pure propane does exist as a 'test gas' used by appliance manufactures to test an appliance for performance and compliance to the relevant standards. Similarly there are purer versions of most LPG's for the same reasons but these are very expensive, and even your pocket would suffer if you insisted on only these for your caravan.
Commercial gasses such as those sold by Calor have to conform to some standards but are rarely pure. They usually contain varying smaller proportions of other Hydrocarbon gasses. This is either by design such as mixing of some Propane with butane to help with lower temperature performance, or through the coarser and thus cheaper fractionising process that makes the gas. Incidentally all LPG's are colourless and odourless. The manufactures always add a stenching agent so the gas become detectable by smell.
As for the mix of commercial propane across Europe, there are international standards for particular grades of gas, but as with petrol there can be variations within that standard and between manufactures. Some national standards vary as well, so rather than a gradual change of the mix supplied across to Spain, it is more likely to change at boarders, and with the supplying company.
Not directly related to LPG but may be of parallel interest; There are significant differences in the mix of natural gas supplied to homes, so much so that manufactures of appliances wishing to supply across Europe have to arrange for special supplies of test gasses to be able to test their appliances. In fact some manufactures find they still have make small changes to appliances to make them work and therefore saleable for some EU countries.
To demonstrate how variable LPG supplies can be: look inside your caravan refrigerator. You should find that it has a printed label, with a list the countries and the relevant gas categories that apply.
Technically LPG always stands for Liquefied Petroleum Gas. In reality it can be any petroleum gas that can be liquefied, by increasing its vapour pressure or cooling it.
Virtually pure propane does exist as a 'test gas' used by appliance manufactures to test an appliance for performance and compliance to the relevant standards. Similarly there are purer versions of most LPG's for the same reasons but these are very expensive, and even your pocket would suffer if you insisted on only these for your caravan.
Commercial gasses such as those sold by Calor have to conform to some standards but are rarely pure. They usually contain varying smaller proportions of other Hydrocarbon gasses. This is either by design such as mixing of some Propane with butane to help with lower temperature performance, or through the coarser and thus cheaper fractionising process that makes the gas. Incidentally all LPG's are colourless and odourless. The manufactures always add a stenching agent so the gas become detectable by smell.
As for the mix of commercial propane across Europe, there are international standards for particular grades of gas, but as with petrol there can be variations within that standard and between manufactures. Some national standards vary as well, so rather than a gradual change of the mix supplied across to Spain, it is more likely to change at boarders, and with the supplying company.
Not directly related to LPG but may be of parallel interest; There are significant differences in the mix of natural gas supplied to homes, so much so that manufactures of appliances wishing to supply across Europe have to arrange for special supplies of test gasses to be able to test their appliances. In fact some manufactures find they still have make small changes to appliances to make them work and therefore saleable for some EU countries.
To demonstrate how variable LPG supplies can be: look inside your caravan refrigerator. You should find that it has a printed label, with a list the countries and the relevant gas categories that apply.
Cl_ve
The very thought that you would do _uch a de___cable th_ing
That'_ _trange _'ve _eem to have lo_t _ome letter_ on the keyboard!
Can _ have them back plea_e
Going back to the original question "would you buy one"
Having read all of this
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ;-)
Having read all of this
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ;-)
Hi cris - if you are referring to any refillable separate cylinder system then I agree with you 100%
Our legislation and safety systems are just not up to speed on this yet. And I am not sure that other countries are either! Take a look at the Australian LPG site MH recommended and have a look at their book of horrors - they have a picture of an old cylinder, rusty and leaking that they took off a guy who wanted to refill it!!
They also quote coming across tanks that have been wielded up!
The confusion MH has is down to a lack of understanding between the two systems - On a car the LPG is dealt with as a liquid right up until the vaporiser and the LPG from the storage tank in the car is taken from an outlet or tube at the bottom of the tank so that the stuff stays as a liquid.
This stuff is a VERY different "kettle of fish" to the gas that is taken of from the top of a domestic/camping cylinder and requires a tad more respect - hence the need for LPGA certification. Corgi engineers work on gas - NOT Liquid gas under pressure!
It also explains why Autogas can be a mixture of Propane & Butane as in their liquid states they will be fed to the Vaporiser equally in whatever ratio they are in the tank.
As Gary points out in his Comment post above (7th Feb 2006 @ 09:19 pm - this poor girl was left in the cold with a useless cylinder of pure Butane as the Propane was vented off at the top.
A 60/40 mix of Propane and Butane would be fine in a car as the mix is fed to the vaporiser as a liquid where it is heated before use.
Our legislation and safety systems are just not up to speed on this yet. And I am not sure that other countries are either! Take a look at the Australian LPG site MH recommended and have a look at their book of horrors - they have a picture of an old cylinder, rusty and leaking that they took off a guy who wanted to refill it!!
They also quote coming across tanks that have been wielded up!
The confusion MH has is down to a lack of understanding between the two systems - On a car the LPG is dealt with as a liquid right up until the vaporiser and the LPG from the storage tank in the car is taken from an outlet or tube at the bottom of the tank so that the stuff stays as a liquid.
This stuff is a VERY different "kettle of fish" to the gas that is taken of from the top of a domestic/camping cylinder and requires a tad more respect - hence the need for LPGA certification. Corgi engineers work on gas - NOT Liquid gas under pressure!
It also explains why Autogas can be a mixture of Propane & Butane as in their liquid states they will be fed to the Vaporiser equally in whatever ratio they are in the tank.
As Gary points out in his Comment post above (7th Feb 2006 @ 09:19 pm - this poor girl was left in the cold with a useless cylinder of pure Butane as the Propane was vented off at the top.
A 60/40 mix of Propane and Butane would be fine in a car as the mix is fed to the vaporiser as a liquid where it is heated before use.
Work means that our van rarely gets used at weekends it goes away for twp three and four week breaks and we stay at sites with mains hook up only. Gas only get used for cooking evening meal when we are in the van, the new to us van came with 1 Propane bottle and I had butane from the old van. I got a switch over t piece fitted so If we needed we have propane for cold weather use. I would assume that you have to use a lot of gas to make it worth while.
As mentioned here, I like many others fill up at hypermarkets in France and you would never get a van in to fill up in many of them and on my travels I've noticed LPG pumps away from the main pumps at smaller carages and it could be fun getting the van near by.
Having had something come up off a french road and hole the gas pipe so I lost all my calor supply, I would not have wanted to de rig and drive off to refill the tank partway through three week pitch.
I think you need to read Johns various postings.
As regards Johns point as to who regulates vehicle LPG installations in is the LPGA - they run the course where technician/mechanics can gain the qualifications to fit an LPG system and issue a Certificate of Conformity.
Without this certificate - insurance is a problem.
Sadly there is nothing to stop the unscrupulous fitting an awful dangerous system. In the same way as there is nothing to stop any of us not servicing our cars any allowing petrol diesel leaks. My MOT tester checked over my LPG system every year and gave me the emission sheet for both petrol and LPG.
Virtually nothing registered when on LPG - but that's another story!
Hi MH - re the Corgi situation I think you need to read Johns various postings.
As regards Johns point as to who regulates vehicle LPG installations in is the LPGA - they run the course where technician/mechanics can gain the qualifications to fit an LPG system and issue a Certificate of Conformity.
Without this certificate - insurance is a problem.
Sadly there is nothing to stop the unscrupulous fitting an awful dangerous system. In the same way as there is nothing to stop any of us not servicing our cars any allowing petrol diesel leaks. My MOT tester checked over my LPG system every year and gave me the emission sheet for both petrol and LPG.
Virtually nothing registered when on LPG - but that's another story!
As regards Johns point as to who regulates vehicle LPG installations in is the LPGA - they run the course where technician/mechanics can gain the qualifications to fit an LPG system and issue a Certificate of Conformity.
Without this certificate - insurance is a problem.
Sadly there is nothing to stop the unscrupulous fitting an awful dangerous system. In the same way as there is nothing to stop any of us not servicing our cars any allowing petrol diesel leaks. My MOT tester checked over my LPG system every year and gave me the emission sheet for both petrol and LPG.
Virtually nothing registered when on LPG - but that's another story!
Agreed cris
I seriously considered a proper van based installation with same filler mounted on the side of the van as I had on my of Range Rover. But the cost!!
I worked it out that it would take decades to recoup the cost at the rate we use gas!
Also they had no answer when I asked what you did if you ever ran out - up sticks and lug the 'van to the nearest autogas site was the only answer.
That's when I started looking at the concept of refillable cylinders rather than having a proper LPG installation.
And that is of course, roughly where we came in!
Monkey
You opened up a tin of worms with this topic, have you come to any conclusions will you or will you not be getting a refilable cylinder. PS I use them daily in my work no problems that common sence cannot overcome
You opened up a tin of worms with this topic, have you come to any conclusions will you or will you not be getting a refilable cylinder. PS I use them daily in my work no problems that common sence cannot overcome
David,
It's Ironic that you mention this - as I've just purchased the Smaller Gaslow refillable cylinder as well as well as its full connection kit. I can see the points above - but often they were formed without full knowledge of my particular circumstance or understand of the particular product versus it competition.
Like I said in an earlier post if a substantial organisation with a good brand name like Gaslow was to design and sell such a product it risks an awful lot. It has to my knowledge approvals - (copies of certificates) are available - The supplier has sold a few with documented feedback and I have now seen it in situ on far more expensive items than a caravan.
Like you say if you apply common sense then everything is OK - but I still see people smoking in filling stations or whilst carrying gas bottles at a camping shop!!
Right next door to my works complex is a Vauxhall car parts warehouse - they use LPG powered forklifts but with one interesting thing - refillable cylinders. Their rationale apart from cost was actually Health and Safety rather than risk operatives moving 13KG bottles often; they sort a solution that done way with a lot of safety issues such as problems with connectors and issues with the heaviness of the cylinder.
Regards Husband of Monkey
It's Ironic that you mention this - as I've just purchased the Smaller Gaslow refillable cylinder as well as well as its full connection kit. I can see the points above - but often they were formed without full knowledge of my particular circumstance or understand of the particular product versus it competition.
Like I said in an earlier post if a substantial organisation with a good brand name like Gaslow was to design and sell such a product it risks an awful lot. It has to my knowledge approvals - (copies of certificates) are available - The supplier has sold a few with documented feedback and I have now seen it in situ on far more expensive items than a caravan.
Like you say if you apply common sense then everything is OK - but I still see people smoking in filling stations or whilst carrying gas bottles at a camping shop!!
Right next door to my works complex is a Vauxhall car parts warehouse - they use LPG powered forklifts but with one interesting thing - refillable cylinders. Their rationale apart from cost was actually Health and Safety rather than risk operatives moving 13KG bottles often; they sort a solution that done way with a lot of safety issues such as problems with connectors and issues with the heaviness of the cylinder.
Regards Husband of Monkey
Cris
You are quite right, we have all become far too comfortable in our personal transport, and movement of people away from their 'natural' homes has meant we no longer have the nuclear family where several generations live within a couple of streets of each other.
Extended families now live apart with much greater distances and complications in route finding, travel plans to visit relatives by Public transport is a task to far to work out, and as you rightly say the cost can also be prohibitive.
Similar issues relate to home to work travel, and may commuter journeys today could not be achieved in a realistic time using the public transport system.
Governments have a lot answer for. Beeching and the subsequent rail and bus sell off have left us with a disjointed public transport system. If the systems had been left under a nationalised process (but using commercial business management processes) we could have retained a chance of keeping transport links working, integrated timetables etc. and a consistency in the pricing structure.
You are quite right, we have all become far too comfortable in our personal transport, and movement of people away from their 'natural' homes has meant we no longer have the nuclear family where several generations live within a couple of streets of each other.
Extended families now live apart with much greater distances and complications in route finding, travel plans to visit relatives by Public transport is a task to far to work out, and as you rightly say the cost can also be prohibitive.
Similar issues relate to home to work travel, and may commuter journeys today could not be achieved in a realistic time using the public transport system.
Governments have a lot answer for. Beeching and the subsequent rail and bus sell off have left us with a disjointed public transport system. If the systems had been left under a nationalised process (but using commercial business management processes) we could have retained a chance of keeping transport links working, integrated timetables etc. and a consistency in the pricing structure.
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