Going Green isn’t easy

[otherclive]

Our 1988 house has a gas central heating and hot water system using a hot water vented tank combined with a large mains fed header tank in the loft to “pressurise” and distribute the hot water. The Worcester Bosch condensing boiler and associated hot water tank are 11 years old. There are two aspects of the system that we don’t like. One is the two header tanks in the loft, and the other is a monsoon pump system to feed the en-suite shower. The en-suite was installed by the previous owners. So we began by looking at the possibility of replacing the vented hot water tank with an unvented pressurised one which would allow loft tanks to be drained and isolated, and would allow the monsoon pump to the en-suite shower to be got rid of. Then at some stage a new boiler would replace the existing one. It wasn’t to be as the airing cupboard would be too small for anything larger than a 90-110 litre unvented tank. Then a 22 mm mains feed would be required from the kitchen to the new tank. That’s when issue two cropped up, as the mains feed to the house is only 15 mm, so routing a 22mm pipe from kitchen to airing cupboard would still not provide adequate pressure and flow for a three bathroom house. The other option to get rid of the loft tanks would be a Combi boiler which would still be subject to output fluctuations when parallel services were being used, and still require a monsoon pump to the en-suite. At £7k+ not on your life.

So our son suggested why not consider a heat pump system, with the government grant of £7500 the overall cost can be on a par with a new boiler and tank installation.. Once my wife had reconciled herself to absolutely no gas in the house as part of any grant financed installation I had some interesting discussions with EDF, EON and OCTOPUS. Based on the survey that we had carried out for the new boiler/tank options it seems the airing cupboard is too small for the HP hot water and buffer tanks. It would need extending in to my office/ spare bedroom. Plus all said that they could not accept a 15 mm mains supply from the meter, and a new 22mm minimum supply would be required. So no point in getting a new EPC, or testing ceilings and soffits for asbestos, or lifting patio or drive to look for water pipe runs it’s not going to happen.

I now know why our elderly neighbours decided only to go for a boiler replacement around two years ago when they wanted a HP system. Guess we will continue with gas for as long as we live in the house and let our successors decide how to deal with it in years to come.

 

[Hutch]

I fully agree about grants NOT being easy to acquire, you really need to be on some sort of a benefit. So we didn't have a hope.
Two years ago we changed our hot water and central heating system from a vented system to a pressurised system. Got rid of the 200gallon water tank in the loft and the combi boiler went into the airing cupboard with the hot water tank. Got rid of two water pumps for the showers, the mains pressure was equal to the old pumps, and the Aqualisa showers already had thermostatic controls.

We went for a Valant eco fit 625 system boiler which has Stainless steel internals where as the Bosch an Ideal had Aluminium internals 10 year guarantee.
The boiler was about £1750, replacing a Cast iron New Mexico which was 40 years old and working well. Everything done in 4 days. Total cost about £5500.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Nothings easy as it's made out to be is it?

Two of the other issues that I've read about with heat pump systems is that some don't do a good job of providing hot water. Also if retrofitting in a house with radiators, they may be too small by about 30% because of the reduced water temperature circulation.

Technology does progress over time so maybe some of these issues have or will go away.

 

[otherclive]

Our radiators were fine as they are all double connectives three years old, but Octopus said if their on site survey showed any to be inadequate to achieve the design performance then any upgrades would be included in the quoted price. Must say their website and technical agents were excellent, but we had decided not to go for the paid on site survey.

My dream is to go all electric, as we had such a system fitted with thermostat panel radiators in our first home. No worries about pipe sizes, flow rates etc. Minimal servicing or maintenance with few complexities.

 

[Hutch]

Nothings easy as it's made out to be is it?

Two of the other issues that I've read about with heat pump systems is that some don't do a good job of providing hot water. Also if retrofitting in a house with radiators, they may be too small by about 30% because of the reduced water temperature circulation.

Technology does progress over time so maybe some of these issues have or will go away.

My brother changed to an Air source heat pump, about 5 years ago, he moans about the house not really getting warm, about 20c max, Never asked him about domestic hot water, but his electric bills are about 20% higher than our combined gas /electric bill, for his small 3 bedroom house as opposed to our bigger 4 bedroom . But he has only just changed to Octopus energy for Heat pumps. So this winter might see a change.

 

[otherclive]

I fully agree about grants NOT being easy to acquire, you really need to be on some sort of a benefit. So we didn't have a hope.
Two years ago we changed our hot water and central heating system from a vented system to a pressurised system. Got rid of the 200gallon water tank in the loft and the combi boiler went into the airing cupboard with the hot water tank. Got rid of two water pumps for the showers, the mains pressure was equal to the old pumps, and the Aqualisa showers already had thermostatic controls.

We wet for a Valant Combi boiler which has Stainless steel internals where as the Bosch an Ideal had Aluminium internals10 year guarantee.
The boiler was about £1750, replacing a Cast iron New Mexico which was 40 years old and working well. Everything done in 4 days. Total cost about £5500.

The £7500 grant doesn’t require you to be on any benefits but there are understandable conditions. The main one being that there’s no going back to gas in any way shape or form. The meter is removed as part of the installation. So cookers, lounge heaters etc are rendered useless and have to be replaced as required.

I assume you meant condensing boiler not combi?

 

[Hutch]

I have just been onto Octopus's website for Heat pumps, and depending on how you "manipulate" the parameters ie low heat pump or high, low usage or High, cosy tariff or standard,
Have the gas meter removed , saves another £124 a year, I can make the heat pump seem better than gas , or the other way around.

Thanks for correction it is a condensing boiler,
A Valiant ecofit 625.

 

[GUMPY]

We bought this house in April 2019 it was built in 1986 and owned by the same couple from new and needed work.
2021 Government introduced the Green Homes Grant, we applied and after much fighting we got the whole grant. This enabled us to fit Solar Thermal panels and replace the open hot water system with a sealed 250 litre tank which meant we lost 60% of the airing cupboard. Because we were shot of the lift tank we could also ditch the two electric showers that were running from mains pressure.
The plumbing is all in 15mm including from the main inlet where I have had to fit a PRV as the incoming mains pressure is about 8 bar which is way to high for a sealed system. The only 22mm was the feed to the bath which we removed and replaced with a shower as we never used it. It also meant that we now have an empty cold tank in the loft that I CBA to cut up and remove. Total cost to us about £2.6k
Next in 2022 came Solar PV 4.3kW of panels 3.6kW inverter and 17.4kW if battery. No grants this time so cost was about £11k not all at the same time as I added to the battery bit by bit.
This year we had a leak from the central heating header tank feed so that has been replaced with a fully pressurised boiler system £340.
Also this year the old gas boiler failed so looked at heat pump but because the heating system is all on microbore it would have been to expensive for us. So we now have a smaller gas boiler with the flow temperature controlled by an external sensor to heat the house to what we need with no peaks and troughs in the temperature curve.
This means that it runs at a much lower temperature most of the time allowing the condensation part to be more efficient, cost £3k.
All this should see us out and I hope has made the house a nicer place to live as well as adding value.

I haven't added in the cost of walls being removed, decorating, new kitchen, en-suite and bathroom.😲

 

[Dustydog]

A new housing development 6 miles from us is using a “communal “ ground sourced pump heating system. The first noticeable factor is the tiny windows.

Some say the ground pump cannot easily raise the hot water system to more than 50degs C.
Some say all the hot water tanks come with an electric immersion heater.
I have no idea how efficient or cost effective this new system is but it is noticeable in the show house the size of the radiators and pipe work.
Inside is very dark .

Three years ago we replaced our old gas boiler with a Vaillant Eco . Does the job and is considerably cleaner and cheaper to run than our old Bosch.

If this one lasts 20 years I’ll be very happy and warm!

As an aside our local church’s oil fired boiler was condemned last winter. The Church Commissioners have demanded an air pump system. Current costs anticipated at nearly £900 k! Now on the back burner for another three years.
The interim solution is interesting.

Two electric boilers will be installed producing a similar kwh output. It’s cost us nearly £200 k for this including a massive new three phase supply .

No free lunches😉

 

[otherclive]

I have just been onto Octopus's website for Heat pumps, and depending on how you "manipulate" the parameters ie low heat pump or high, low usage or High, cosy tariff or standard,
Have the gas meter removed , saves another £124 a year, I can make the heat pump seem better than gas , or the other way around.

Thanks for correction it is a condensing boiler,
A Valiant ecofit 625.

That’s what I found, can understand folks fitting them in newer houses without too much problem. But ours re 1988 is positively ancient. There’s a website linked from Octopus where those who have had heat pumps fitted open their houses to pre arranged visits. There was one chap in the Thames area had a lot of work to do both pre order and during installation but he's pleased with the outcome.

Detached property, hosted by Chris | Visit a heat pump

 

[otherclive]

A new housing development 6 miles from us is using a “communal “ ground sourced pump heating system. The first noticeable factor is the tiny windows.

Some say the ground pump cannot easily raise the hot water system to more than 50degs C.
Some say all the hot water tanks come with an electric immersion heater.
I have no idea how efficient or cost effective this new system is but it is noticeable in the show house the size of the radiators and pipe work.
Inside is very dark .

Three years ago we replaced our old gas boiler with a Vaillant Eco . Does the job and is considerably cleaner and cheaper to run than our old Bosch.

If this one lasts 20 years I’ll be very happy and warm!

As an aside our local church’s oil fired boiler was condemned last winter. The Church Commissioners have demanded an air pump system. Current costs anticipated at nearly £900 k! Now on the back burner for another three years.
The interim solution is interesting.

Two electric boilers will be installed producing a similar kwh output. It’s cost us nearly £200 k for this including a massive new three phase supply .

No free lunches😉

Whichever option we considered except the combination boiler had an immersion in the hot water tank. Makes sense to have a back up just in case the HP gives problems. Some sytems also used the immersion to give the temperature a boost and for anti Legionnaires.

 

[otherclive]

We bought this house in April 2019 it was built in 1986 and owned by the same couple from new and needed work.
2021 Government introduced the Green Homes Grant, we applied and after much fighting we got the whole grant. This enabled us to fit Solar Thermal panels and replace the open hot water system with a sealed 250 litre tank which meant we lost 60% of the airing cupboard. Because we were shot of the lift tank we could also ditch the two electric showers that were running from mains pressure.
The plumbing is all in 15mm including from the main inlet where I have had to fit a PRV as the incoming mains pressure is about 8 bar which is way to high for a sealed system. The only 22mm was the feed to the bath which we removed and replaced with a shower as we never used it. It also meant that we now have an empty cold tank in the loft that I CBA to cut up and remove. Total cost to us about £2.6k
Next in 2022 came Solar PV 4.3kW of panels 3.6kW inverter and 17.4kW if battery. No grants this time so cost was about £11k not all at the same time as I added to the battery bit by bit.
This year we had a leak from the central heating header tank feed so that has been replaced with a fully pressurised boiler system £340.
Also this year the old gas boiler failed so looked at heat pump but because the heating system is all on microbore it would have been to expensive for us. So we now have a smaller gas boiler with the flow temperature controlled by an external sensor to heat the house to what we need with no peaks and troughs in the temperature curve.
This means that it runs at a much lower temperature most of the time allowing the condensation part to be more efficient, cost £3k.
All this should see us out and I hope has made the house a nicer place to live as well as adding value.

I haven't added in the cost of walls being removed, decorating, new kitchen, en-suite and bathroom.😲

8 bar reduced down might have given us a different choice as our water pressure from the mains isn’t great. Putting the outside tap on gives well over 25 litres a minute, but it dropped noticeably when I ran the cold tap in the garage sink. Quite sensitive to multi use.

 

[Oscarmax]

We have an 8 year old detached 2 bedroom bungalow it is fitted with an Ideal Combi boiler are heating is about £500, we have the heating set at 22 degrees C in the winter. In the next 2 years we are going to change the kitchen an ideal time to replace the Ideal with a Worcester Bosch unit whilst we still can. Indecently in our area they have been changing and upgrading all the gas network ?

 

[Kevin M]

My advice would be to avoid the Heat Pumps for a while, there are some better pumps in development but they are not there yet. our house is 20 years old now and the combo boiler is past its best and will be replaced for a new one this coming spring, probably with a valiant brand although artiston are doing some great deals.