Going Green isn’t easy

[ProfJohnL]

Has this affected your energy costs for better or worse?

Cost of energy is not a good criteria use, as prices are volatile and as most of us know as time goes by prices rise anyway so even if the energy consumption was exactly the same, the cost will invariably be larger.

Look at energy used.

however even that has its difficulties, as generally domestic energy consumption has a pattern that is the inverse of ambient temperatures, so short period comparisons might be quite different, so its sensible to make comparisons for period is excess of 3 months to help normalise ambient weather conditions. and other seasonal variations, such as hours of darkness etc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

8 bar reduced down might have given us a different choice as our water pressure from the mains isn’t great. Putting the outside tap on gives well over 25 litres a minute, but it dropped noticeably when I ran the cold tap in the garage sink. Quite sensitive to multi use.

A little thread drift here, but your experience of your long pipe run is the type of issue found on some caravan sites where caravans take water direct from the tap, and why many users find direct water supplies are not so good as using the caravans water pump.

 

[RogerL]

Cost of energy is not a good criteria use, as prices are volatile and as most of us know as time goes by prices rise anyway so even if the energy consumption was exactly the same, the cost will invariably be larger.

Using the cost of energy is inevitable as that's how most people make their decisions - it's perfectly valid to use the present cost of energy to do the comparisons.

The criticisms of air-source heat pump systems are fairly well known - my additional concern is that the recommended temperature goes up as the occupants get older and more frail - so not practical if it struggles to maintain temperature in colder weather - and the nature of the system means that keeping one room warm at the expense of other rooms isn't practical for those struggling financially.

In practice, we couldn't have an air-source heat pump without gutting the inside of the house - it was built in 1976 during some war in Africa resulted in a copper shortage so it's piped in a mixture of stainless steel small bore and copper microbore and the radiators would be way undersize for a heat pump so the whole lot would need to be ripped out and replaced - Mrs L refuses point blank to deal with that level of disruption!

 

[otherclive]

Cost of energy is not a good criteria use, as prices are volatile and as most of us know as time goes by prices rise anyway so even if the energy consumption was exactly the same, the cost will invariably be larger.

Look at energy used.

however even that has its difficulties, as generally domestic energy consumption has a pattern that is the inverse of ambient temperatures, so short period comparisons might be quite different, so its sensible to make comparisons for period is excess of 3 months to help normalise ambient weather conditions. and other seasonal variations, such as hours of darkness etc.

Most energy suppliers websites let you look at periods of up 12 months or more with cost or kwh readings available for both gas and electric, or individually gas or electric.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Our village does not have mains gas anywhere. Our home is all electric and had night storage heaters when we moved in. Utter waste of time,
We were persuaded to have them ripped out and replaced with electric central heating. Fine until the bills arrive then it's nearly 2nd mortgage time.
We've reopened the original fire grate, had the chimney inspected and gone back to an open fire.
Much cosier and cheaper.

 

[Dustydog]

Cost of energy is not a good criteria use, as prices are volatile and as most of us know as time goes by prices rise anyway so even if the energy consumption was exactly the same, the cost will invariably be larger.

Look at energy used.

however even that has its difficulties, as generally domestic energy consumption has a pattern that is the inverse of ambient temperatures, so short period comparisons might be quite different, so its sensible to make comparisons for period is excess of 3 months to help normalise ambient weather conditions. and other seasonal variations, such as hours of darkness etc.

My ask was based on the possibility he has a smart meter which may give him a second by second assessment of usage. He knows what his averages were previously

 

[Oscarmax]

I have been banging the drum about heat pumps and their drawbacks for a number of years, but have always been shot down in flames by a poster. The poster in question may not even have a heat pump?

Not sure if this is valid. During the summer our electric bill is about £120 per month, but during the winter it can be as high as £280 per month. Considering that the home heating set to 20C between 6am - 9am and 4 - 10pm and the rest of the time 17C, that is quite a jump. The figures including hot water heating. Just to add that while the hot water is being heated in the early morning, the home heating shuts down for that hour.

Our heating energy gas bill for the past 12 months £527.43 7178.85 kWh, our electric bill including standing charge for the past 12 months minus £69.95.

Total energy bill £527.43 - £69.95 = £457.48

 

[Buckman]

Our heating energy gas bill for the past 12 months £527.43 7178.85 kWh, our electric bill including standing charge for the past 12 months minus £69.95.

Total energy bill £527.43 - £69.95 = £457.48

Seems to prove my point about heat pumps being more expensive to run than gas?

 

[otherclive]

Including standing charge in 2024 we paid £605 for electric, and £561 for gas. Brings home to you how expensive electricity is, as we have no electric heating, all LED lighting, fridge freezer in kitchen, washing machine mainly on 30 deg, and dehumidifier on occasionally in colder months to dry laundry in the bathroom. Tumble dryer very rarely. So £1166 pa for 2024 is not too bad. But the house is very well insulated with up to date doors and windows.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Using the cost of energy is inevitable as that's how most people make their decisions - it's perfectly valid to use the present cost of energy to do the comparisons.
...

I understand that ultimately most people will choose a supplier's whose pricing they least unhappy with, but even if two people are with the same supplier, their bills may different if they are on different tariffs, and of course there are regional variations (becasue we apparently like to have such a complicated sales structure with so many different suppliers).

Ultimately the only factor that can establish how efficient your electrical usage is energy used, not the price. The efficiency may be reflected in the cost but unless you know the tariff regime you can't work out if a change of equipment (such as the introduction of a heat pump) has actually improved your efficiency just from the difference in cost.

 

[Oscarmax]

Seems to prove my point about heat pumps being more expensive to run than gas?

My figures are slightly distorted, we have 4.4kWh solar panels and a 5.8kWh battery also we are on Octopus Go, I am assuming you are on Octopus Cosy or similar. Tumble dryer gets a hammering.

 

[Gafferbill]

Our figures are more than distorted by having very low gas and electricity usage when away from home in the caravan or other trips.....105 days in last 12 months.
Don't have solar or batteries and thus didn't spend money obtaining them.
Just on a fixed dual fuel tarrif with a major supplier with gas central heating in 3 bedroom detached house.
Total bill for last 12 months including boiler service = £908

 

[Buckman]

Including standing charge in 2024 we paid £605 for electric, and £561 for gas. Brings home to you how expensive electricity is, as we have no electric heating, all LED lighting, fridge freezer in kitchen, washing machine mainly on 30 deg, and dehumidifier on occasionally in colder months to dry laundry in the bathroom. Tumble dryer very rarely. So £1166 pa for 2024 is not too bad. But the house is very well insulated with up to date doors and windows.

I wish we were even near that as our annual bill is well over £1800 per annum. Ee only have a small well insulated home and not a mansion and I like to think that we are very careful with usage. Seems to prove that heat pumps work out very expensive in the long run? Our bills have definitely not lowered by £300 according some buffoon!

 

[otherclive]

I wish we were even near that as our annual bill is well over £1800 per annum. Ee only have a small well insulated home and not a mansion and I like to think that we are very careful with usage. Seems to prove that heat pumps work out very expensive in the long run? Our bills have definitely not lowered by £300 according some buffoon!

It would be interesting to see how a more modern heat pump would work, as you were in the vanguard.

 

[GUMPY]

My figures are very distorted due to running from the battery and only using the grid when it's cheap.

Electricity costs can vary wildly depending on tarrifs and time of use even with the same supplier.
My costs for last 12 months were £361 that's on Agile where the cost changes every half hour.
Tracker that changes daily would have been £470
Fixed would have been £495.
£240+ of the charges is standing charge/vat which is what really hurts
I do have to watch my usage and never use peak 4-7pm electric but it works for me.

 

[Jcloughie]

Our total yearly bills are around £1800 which is supposed to be average for a 3 bed semi. I feel we could reduce that by being more sensible with the thermostat, but we are happy to be comfortable. However, despite price rises, we seem to have been ‘average ‘ users for years.

The house has an ideal south facing roof for solar. But we are yet to be convinced that the upheaval, expenditure, upkeep, depreciation and management would be cost effective.

John

 

[Buckman]

It would be interesting to see how a more modern heat pump would work, as you were in the vanguard.

Our daughter had a heat pump imposed on them as they have a new build. We will only know after a year has passed, but the winter months could give an indication. Previously they had oil for heating.

 

[otherclive]

Our daughter had a heat pump imposed on them as they have a new build. We will only know after a year has passed, but the winter months could give an indication. Previously they had oil for heating.

It will be interesting as with a new build it would ( or should) have been designed for a heat pump system.

 

[JTQ]

Our daughter had a heat pump imposed on them as they have a new build. We will only know after a year has passed, but the winter months could give an indication. Previously they had oil for heating.

Presuming a different house, then there are going to be many detail differences. Therefore, at best the results will indicate how good or otherwise in energy conservation that individual property with its sum of features has turned out. Not how one feature, air heat recovery, compares with burning oil.

-------------------------------------------------------------
New estates are in locations that obviously were not previously developed.
In the local area some of these are where logically you would not choose, the damp hollows where the mist historically, and inherently initially formed. This I would think adds to the challenges of making these homes comfortable.

Similarly we are on top of a hill, high, largely unprotected and that again can be noticeably chilling in cold blasts.