GTW with B+E

[otherclive]

Hello Dazzzzbo,

Remove the trailer and re test the car D front axle and E rear axle
D and E must not exceed the cars axle limits (which they will never do so long as A+B don't already exceed their limits)
(A+B ) - (D+E) is the outfits nose load and should not exceed the S value of either the cars tow bar or the trailers coupling head
(A+B ) - (D+E) + C should not exceed the MTPLM of the trailer.

That's correct, but it would be less complicated when checking the MTPLM of the trailer if one simply made sure that the jockey wheel is standing on the weighbridge at the same time. Then there wouldn't have to be any adding or subtracting to do, but one would have a direct reading.

When I was escorted by a motorcycle policeman to VOSA weighbridge the complete caravan with nose wheel was weighed on the bridge. Also the coupled car with individual axle weights taken. Then came a comprehensive check of both vehicles.

 

[Dazzzzbo]

Hi John I will have the B+E shortly. I understand the capability of the car I.e max tow weight etc. What I had read conflicting information on was if you have B+E was the total weight of the outfit. The DVLA reckon the would combine the 2 weights stated on the plate and are not bothered what the outfit weighs if the plates add up to more than the gtw of the tow car.
It seems silly tbh and I do think that the gov websites should explain it better

I think you may have misunderstood the DVLA response. Yes, for a category B licence, the 2 weights on the respective plate, when added together, must not exceed 3500kg but the plated gross train weight can be greater than 3500kg. Regardless of this and independent of any licence restrictions, the actual weight of the complete outfit must not exceed the plated gross train weight limit, even if this is less than 3500kg.

Hi Lutz
I specifically asked him about B+E as I had already explained to him I was sitting the test.
I’m not sure if the DVLA actually know what they are on about. I should of asked for an email with it on.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again, Dazzzzbo

Im sorry but it is very unlikely that the DVLA would get their information wrong. I'm not saying it's impossible, but they are usually very careful about giving out advice of this nature.

Given your report of what they told you, their response does not make sense, so I wonder if you miss remembered the details, or misunderstood what they were telling you.

It's possible the DVLA may have misunderstood what you were asking, and have given an answer to a different question.

 

[Lutz]

Hi Lutz
I specifically asked him about B+E as I had already explained to him I was sitting the test.
I’m not sure if the DVLA actually know what they are on about. I should of asked for an email with it on.

As far as a B+E licence is concerned you will, of course, not be subject to the 3500kg gross combination weight limit. You will be able to drive a vehicle with a GVW of up to 3500kg towing a trailer also up to 3500kg.

 

[Dazzzzbo]

Hi lutz

I understand the the 3.5 +3.5 ton part. I was specifically asking them about the Mam and mtplm weight adding up to more than the gtw.
I explained I would not have nonwhere near that weight in the car and van. He said it makes no difference and the woukd just add the Mam and mptlm that is printed on the plates not what it will actually weigh. I was careful what I asked them and asked again to make sure. I had however spoken to 3 other people in other departments who didn’t have clue and just kept transferring me lol.

Cheers

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi lutz

I understand the the 3.5 +3.5 ton part. I was specifically asking them about the Mam and mtplm weight adding up to more than the gtw.
I explained I would not have nonwhere near that weight in the car and van. He said it makes no difference and the woukd just add the Mam and mptlm that is printed on the plates not what it will actually weigh. I was careful what I asked them and asked again to make sure. I had however spoken to 3 other people in other departments who didn’t have clue and just kept transferring me lol.

Cheers

The advice you tell us you've been given makes sense in the context of the authorities checking you have the necessary Entitlements on your driving licence, they always look at the combined MAM, not what a vehicle actually weighs. The GTW is not involved with licence entitlements.

The GTW - GVW figure only relates to the tow vehicles ability to tow a particular weight, it does not define the MTPLM of a trailer. It is perfectly legal for a car to tow a trailer with an MTPLM that is greater than the cars towed weight limit, provided the trailer is only part loaded so its measured axle load does not exceed the cars towed weight limit.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, one has got to differentiate between driving licence entitlement requirements which are based on plated, not actual, weights and the legal technical limits where none of the actual weights may exceed the their respective plated counterparts.

 

[Lutz]

Hi lutz

I understand the the 3.5 +3.5 ton part. I was specifically asking them about the Mam and mtplm weight adding up to more than the gtw.
I explained I would not have nonwhere near that weight in the car and van. He said it makes no difference and the woukd just add the Mam and mptlm that is printed on the plates not what it will actually weigh. I was careful what I asked them and asked again to make sure. I had however spoken to 3 other people in other departments who didn’t have clue and just kept transferring me lol.

Cheers

I think I know now what you mean. Let's say the towing vehicle has a GVW of 2000kg and a GTW of 3600kg. If it's towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg it will obviously require a B+E licence for the combination. However, 2000 + 1800 is also greater than the GTW. All that means is that either the trailer or the towing vehicle or both cannot be loaded fully up to their respective GVW or MTPLM.

 

[Dazzzzbo]

Hi lutz

I understand the the 3.5 +3.5 ton part. I was specifically asking them about the Mam and mtplm weight adding up to more than the gtw.
I explained I would not have nonwhere near that weight in the car and van. He said it makes no difference and the woukd just add the Mam and mptlm that is printed on the plates not what it will actually weigh. I was careful what I asked them and asked again to make sure. I had however spoken to 3 other people in other departments who didn’t have clue and just kept transferring me lol.

Cheers

I think I know now what you mean. Let's say the towing vehicle has a GVW of 2000kg and a GTW of 3600kg. If it's towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg it will obviously require a B+E licence for the combination. However, 2000 + 1800 is also greater than the GTW. All that means is that either the trailer or the towing vehicle or both cannot be loaded fully up to their respective GVW or MTPLM.

Hi that’s exactly what I mean. But the bloke at DVLA said it didn’t matter if the van and car didn’t add up to the gtw they would only go off the plates even if I had a b+e licence. My caravan insurance states that they won’t pay out if the caravan and gar exceed the gtw. If the caravan broke apart how would they determine the weight? I suspect they would just add the plate weights together and use that or am I wrong ?

 

[Lutz]

Hi that’s exactly what I mean. But the bloke at DVLA said it didn’t matter if the van and car didn’t add up to the gtw they would only go off the plates even if I had a b+e licence. My caravan insurance states that they won’t pay out if the caravan and gar exceed the gtw. If the caravan broke apart how would they determine the weight? I suspect they would just add the plate weights together and use that or am I wrong ?

No, if driving licence entitlement is not the issue, then actual weights will be compared with the plated limits, and that includes GTW.

 

[Dazzzzbo]

That does make more sense Lutz and I’m not disagreeing it’s just what the DVLA bloke said and I made it clear to him what I was meaning. There should defo be better info on .gov site to clarify the rules.
It’s not going to really affect me now anyway as I was going to opt for the galaxy with the tdi engine which was 10kg out by the plates. I think I’m sticking with my Passat but if not will be getting the mk3 galaxy which has an extra 200kg Gtw.
How do you think the insurance company would determine that you weren’t overloaded if the worst happened ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Insurance companies would have to follow the same rules as the DVSA about determining the real loaded weight of a vehicle.They could not assume it was overloaded without having substantive evidence to make such a claim.

However the fitting of a towbar is a modification, so it is very wise to inform your insurers in writing so they cannot later claim they where unaware of your intention to tow.

Provided the vehicle was being used in accordance with its specifications and the drivers licence covered the vehicle (and trailer) then insurers should have no problems with towing.

I do recall that one forum contributor did once suggest that an insurer did add a clause to his Terms And Conditions for the policy that restricted his trailers weight to a lower figure than the car manufacturer had set out in the cars specification, but this statement was never substantiated so I do not know if it was true or not.

In principal, an insurer could apply lower towing limits to a policy , but it would have to be specified in the policies Terms and Conditions issued with the policy at renewal, or in a changes notice before the limit is applied.

An insurer cannot decide to apply such a limit retrospectively.

 

[Hutch]

Insurance companies would have to follow the same rules as the DVSA about determining the real loaded weight of a vehicle.They could not assume it was overloaded without having substantive evidence to make such a claim.

However the fitting of a towbar is a modification, so it is very wise to inform your insurers in writing so they cannot later claim they where unaware of your intention to tow.

Provided the vehicle was being used in accordance with its specifications and the drivers licence covered the vehicle (and trailer) then insurers should have no problems with towing.

I do recall that one forum contributor did once suggest that an insurer did add a clause to his Terms And Conditions for the policy that restricted his trailers weight to a lower figure than the car manufacturer had set out in the cars specification, but this statement was never substantiated so I do not know if it was true or not.

In principal, an insurer could apply lower towing limits to a policy , but it would have to be specified in the policies Terms and Conditions issued with the policy at renewal, or in a changes notice before the limit is applied.

An insurer cannot decide to apply such a limit retrospectively.

Prof you went off grid again , your reply is not which Dazzzbo asked, get a grip.
My best regards
Hutch.
Prof there is a spàre pitch at the Woosie fest this weekend , why not join us at elm Cottage touring park. . Dares you.

 

[Lutz]

That does make more sense Lutz and I’m not disagreeing it’s just what the DVLA bloke said and I made it clear to him what I was meaning. There should defo be better info on .gov site to clarify the rules.
It’s not going to really affect me now anyway as I was going to opt for the galaxy with the tdi engine which was 10kg out by the plates. I think I’m sticking with my Passat but if not will be getting the mk3 galaxy which has an extra 200kg Gtw.
How do you think the insurance company would determine that you weren’t overloaded if the worst happened ?

First of all, you weren't 10kg out by the plates in the first place because, as I explained in a previous reply, you can't add the GVW of the car and the MTPLM of the caravan together to arrive at the GTW. This is because both GVW and MTPLM include the noseweight, so you would be counting noseweight twice if you add them together.

I would think that insurance companies would only question possible weight limit excess if they have reason to suppose that the outfit was seriously overweight. It would require the vehicles, including all their contents, to be apprehended by the police after the accident for subsequent weighing and I am sure that would only be done in very extreme cases.

 

[Raywood]

On the Prof,s point on insurance, I have come across one insurer who limited any trailer to the weight of the car. I cannot argue with the logic from a safety point of view and I assume it is based on claims experience.
Insurers have to be able to prove the point if they want to turn a claim down for any reason so if it is due to excessive towed weight they would need to be able to show this which is very difficult if a caravan is destroyed in an accident ad Dazzzbo says. If the MIRO was heavier than the cars towing capacity this could be enough though but I have never seen a claim turned down on that basis.