Haven't a clue

[craigstaiano]

I have just come back from the bank holiday in Norfolk and when driving past Norwich after a day out i saw a good size (older) Fleetwood Colchester, being towed (just) by a Renault megane coupe. Are they mad? By my reckoning thats 120% ratio at least.

Some people just dont have a clue

 

[dougie201]

Hi.
Yes got to agree, some folk just dont have a clue.
A while ago i passed a picasso towing a twin axle cant remember the van but it was a good weight, and was certainly not a safe match.

Dougie.....

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi.
Yes got to agree, some folk just dont have a clue.
A while ago i passed a picasso towing a twin axle cant remember the van but it was a good weight, and was certainly not a safe match.

Dougie.....

hi Dougie
how do you know if you cant remember the van the old picasso has a max tow weight of 1300kg and the new C4 picasso 1500kg.
not exactly trailer tent weights are they??

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

I have just come back from the bank holiday in Norfolk and when driving past Norwich after a day out i saw a good size (older) Fleetwood Colchester, being towed (just) by a Renault megane coupe. Are they mad? By my reckoning thats 120% ratio at least.

Some people just dont have a clue

sorry craigstaiano but neither do commentators who are not aware of ALL the facts!!! .
my present car is a megane mk1 with the 1.9dci 110bhp turbo charged engine it's max tow weight is 1160kg that tows the 1058kg bailey we have with ease.
my last caravan a fleetwood colchester 18ft 5 berth circa 1988 had a max weight of 19cwt or in metric 967kg !!!! I towed that with a 1.6 Talbot Alpine from john "o" grotes to lands end TWICE,
yes it would look odd a 13ft car towing a 20ft (with A frame) van but is perfectly within the cars limits but then so is a toyota rav4 towing a 6.25mtr T/A.
appearances can be disseptive, to my reckoning the match is nearer 90% than 120% AND if it was a old 88ish van it could be that the guy doing the towing could have had 20+ years experience,

how about you??
colin

 

[Steve L]

As a lot of you will know, I used to tow a 20ft twin axle van with a Renault Laguna estate 2 Ltr petrol. It was running at 100% tow capacity and towed perfectly well as long as it was loaded correctly.

I fully understang Gross train weights etc, etc. Furthermore, I do wish people would not refer to the 85% of kerbside weight "mythical" mythical figure as being any form of a safe tow limit or guideline as it is not the actual tow capacity legally recognised by VOSA or the police or the courts.

Having been through more VOSA checks than the average caravanner beause I also used to tow a 3500Kg Ifor Williams goods trailer with my Diahatsu 4X4, which without doubt was at about 160% ratio of trailer to kerbside weight of the Diahatsu. The outfit was like a "red wrag to a bull" to the police because it was mostly fully loaded on the road. I was stopped on average once a month and passed the eagle eye of VOSA on all but one occassion when the hitch weight was 10% too heavy. Because I adjusted that instantly, I only got a verbal warning.

Just because a car has a caravan behind it that visably looks too big, doesn't automatically mean it is. If the driver has done his homework and got the gross train, nose weight and vehicle gross weight correctly distributed, there is no reason why he/she shouldn't drive within their personal capability and the speed limits of the law.

You're usually at more risk of an accident if your towing a lighter trailer, because the car tow's without the tugging of a heavy load, you tend to drive faster and brake later. Where as, with a heavy load on the back nudging the tow car your usually driving slower because of the load and inherantly using your gearbox as opposed to brakes to help control the caravan down hill etc.

 

[craigstaiano]

Just to clarify for Colin-Yorkshire...

The car was a megane sports coupe, the 3 door 2+2, not the 5 door hatchback. This is considerable smaller than a standard megane, and the van was around the 2000-2003 age making it around 1350mtplm.

I am aware of train weights and MTPLM having it drilled into me by dealers when i was choosing our new van, but that match was most certainly unsafe.

The point i am really trying to make is with so many letters and articles in Practical Caravan (and others) do so many people take so many risks?

I am in the process of looking for an alternative car as my company car is due to go back with me changing jobs, but the first things i am looking at is, what can it tow and what does it weigh? Our caravan is our pride and joy, and if anything happened because i did something stupid on the road i would be totally gutted

 

[dougie201]

Hi Colin.
Sorry but how many vans are there that weigh under 1300kg and have a twin axle??? And this was the old style picasso. Twin axles that i see are over 1600kg.

Dougie....

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Just to clarify for Colin-Yorkshire...

The car was a megane sports coupe, the 3 door 2+2, not the 5 door hatchback. This is considerable smaller than a standard megane, and the van was around the 2000-2003 age making it around 1350mtplm.

I am aware of train weights and MTPLM having it drilled into me by dealers when i was choosing our new van, but that match was most certainly unsafe.

The point i am really trying to make is with so many letters and articles in Practical Caravan (and others) do so many people take so many risks?

I am in the process of looking for an alternative car as my company car is due to go back with me changing jobs, but the first things i am looking at is, what can it tow and what does it weigh? Our caravan is our pride and joy, and if anything happened because i did something stupid on the road i would be totally gutted

hi thanks for the clarification but were still not quite there yet!!! what model of van was it??.
sorry to seem a bit picky but I do so hate sweeping statements from the casual observer without going into the nitty gritty of what makes things tick, I believe one should not make comments without being dam sure of the facts in hand.
it may well be that you are correct but on the other hand appearances can be disseptive what at first glance could look totally inapropreate may well just be just borderline on the side of ok.
with experience ones gets a feel as to the where the bounderies are ie "Steve reply" which I agree with, some of the comments I have recieved over the years would make the pope swear

one guy once told me towing with anything less than a 4x4 or big volvo should not be allowed on the roads as they hold everybody else up and are not safe as the van would push a smaller car when braking ?? well his van probably didn't have any brakes "eh" and was talking for experience.
some of us tow our caravans with smaller cars through choice and yes one has to be very careful of all the relevent legistlation and max weights but even today it is possible to have a decent sized van and tow it with a little care even if its' right up to the top limit.
by the way were you aware that the towing limits of the "smaller megane coupe" were acctually higher than the hatchback like mine?
the figures if you are interested are :- megane hatchback " braked trailer" 1145 to 1225 kg dependant on model. coupe 1250kg all models, the gross vehicle train weight is also higher,

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Colin.
Sorry but how many vans are there that weigh under 1300kg and have a twin axle??? And this was the old style picasso. Twin axles that i see are over 1600kg.

Dougie....

Hi Dougie
During the early 1990s quite a few.
Avondale Avocet 2 berth TA
Ace Award Tristar TA
Abbey Spectrum 215 TA

All rather old but none the less lightweights compared to todays TA s. Perhaps I and Colin have longer memories??

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

good point DD to be honest the last time I went looking at new vans was in 2005 however one allways is curious (well I am anyway) as the illustrated weights of vans on the dealer's plots with quite a few supprises like 6mtr van's that can vary from 1400 to 2500kg but look similar from the outside or the 4 mtr ones that weigh from 1000 to 1400kg,
that is the whole point I was trying to make just looking at a vans size is really no indication of its weight or conversly the weight that some so called family cars can handle it all depends on knowing the particular models in question.
then theres the question of "towload" against MTPLM's for me a grey area open to dispute (discussed on this forum many times).
it just is not as clear cut as some believe it is, an outfit that looks completely OTT could be quite legal in real terms.and one that looks ok might not be!!.
I just don't believe it is for the casual observer to pass comment on someone else's outfit the subject of this topic. It may well be that some outfits out there are unsuitable but that is for them to worry about, certainly not me!! it must also be understood that not everyone uses forums or is a member of a club or even reads magazines to these people passing comment on a forum is a bit like trying to converse with a blind man in sign language, "POINTLESS"

colin

 

[ProfJohnL]

I see Colin is being pedantic - a man after my own heart, and i have to agree with him on this one.

Legally a car can tow any trailer that is within its designers specification. It's just UK caravanserai's that have had the notion of 85% recommended max tow ratio, and never exceed 100% drilled into them by a committee who have plucked the figures from the ether, rather than car manufacture who has had to tests to establish the real towing capacity of their cars.

Who do you believe?

I must stress that whilst I disagree with often quoted figures, basically because they give a false sense of security, but I do agree with the principals that suggest towed weights should be kept as small as possible.

Returning to the meat of the thread, until you know the technical details of the cars and caravans you cannot make any judgement about legality of the outfits.

Safety is a slightly different matter, That is dependent on a whole raft of matters that without inspecting each outfit you cannot know what measures have been taken to minimise any risk.

All you can offer is an opinion, not a dead cert fact.

 

[Lutz]

It would be helpful to the entire caravanning fraternity if Practical Caravan or any other interested body would take up the "85% weight ratio recommendation" issue and physically carry out some tests to compare the handling of an outfit at 85% with the same at 100% to determine what the difference in handling actually is. The 85% figure has been carried over from days gone by for so long without question and no-one seems to know how 85% was determined in the first place, that it is about time it were verified or alternatively a new standard established. Things have changed so much over the years that I feel it is appropriate to have a closer look to see whether things have any relevance today.

 

[JonnyG]

Statistics and dam statistics, I am not sure I agree with a test being carried out to see if 85% is safer than 100%.I would assume in general terms that it is. I would also assume 80% to be slightly safer that 85% and 75% to be safer than all higher weights %.

So any sort of test, would have to consider more than just the 85% rule, i just don't believe it could be done fairly.

 

[Lutz]

Of course, 80% gives you a better margin than 85% and 85% a better one than 90% and so on, but the question is at what level is stability appreciably impaired?
I doubt whether anyone can detect a 5% change. That's why I suggested selecting 85% and 100%. If one were to test at intermediate levels as well, the investigation could become too involved.

 

[Parksy]

To carry out such research objectively Practical Caravan would have to test every combination of towcar and caravan because there are other factors which can affect or influence the stability of caravans being towed.
A particular combination might be perfectly stable at 100% but a different combination might exhibit some degree of instability at a lesser ratio because of factors beside weight ratio.

 

[Dustydog]

To carry out such research objectively Practical Caravan would have to test every combination of towcar and caravan because there are other factors which can affect or influence the stability of caravans being towed.
A particular combination might be perfectly stable at 100% but a different combination might exhibit some degree of instability at a lesser ratio because of factors beside weight ratio.

Actually Parksy
part of the answer is already out there.
If Nigel D or one of his colleagues liaised with Bailey and the University of Bath a technical answer may be forthcoming

 

[Lutz]

No doubt there would be differences between outfits, but to select a typical one as an example would be a start. Otherwise, we won't be making any progress at all.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,
I know what you mean, but unfortunately Parksy is absolutely right, the permutations for verey caravan, and every car must run into hundreds of thousands, and then on top of that there are the permuataions of how you actually load each caravan and how you drive. There are so many criterea that affect the drivability of an outfit that I doubt there will ever be a definative way of predicting an outfits performenca and handling.

 

[Lutz]

If the differences between outfits is really that great (which I somehow doubt) then that makes a complete mockery of any recommendation, whether it be 85%, 100%, or whatever, and the sources that publish such advice (Practical Caravan, the CC, the C&CC, etc.) should refrain from doing so.

 

[hgv dave]

hi all
so if my boss tells me to pick a load up which when i go over the weigh scales my gross train weight is 44 tonne do i tell him that i cant take it because its over the 85% rule?
i wont post on here what i think his response would be

hgv dave

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dave,

I hope you post was tounge in cheek, becasue if it wasnt, then i really dont think you shoudl be driving HGV's

As you should know by now 85% IS NOT A RULE (and yes I am shouting)

 

[NigelHutson]

Having towed with over 200 vehicles in the past few years, with caravans laden to 85% (or the maximum towing limit if less, or in the case of the "big boys", to the caravan's maximum), there are some cars that I'm sure would be absolutely fine towing more, but there are also some awful ones out there (and ones which some folk swear by), which are not the most stable things when solo, let alone when towing.
To get back to the original post, was the caravan laden? If it was empty, then it may well have been within the car's limits, but just looked wrong.

 

[Steve L]

I think it's about time people stopped giving false assurance that if you abide by a NON OFFICIAL GUIDE LINE of 85% of the kerdside weight of a tow car, you are guarantee'd some sort of safe tow situation.

I can see HGV Dave's point and yes he is jesting.

I once refused to bring a spud bulk load back because it was 6 ton over weight for my 4 leg tractor unit. The boss went ape! But when I pointed out that the 6 legger had been sent to a job that mine could of done, it transpired that the driver of that one had persuaded the transport manager to let him go to Scotland on a 3 day jolly to fetch just a 14 ton load.

I've been tugged by the law for towing a trailer that "looked too big" for my car, a few years back. I was towing a 16ft beavertail trailer (single axle) made from a caravan chassis, that was loaded with 65 empty wooden box pallets 5ft long 1 1/2 ft wide and 9" deep. The load and trailer weighed 1100kgs and was about 8ft tall. I was towing this with my Renault 18 GTL estate (1647cc), with the full knowledge and approval of west midlands police. You see, they had stopped me towing it with our VW LT35 curtain sider as it hadn't got a tachograph fitted. (thats another escapade). They even stopped the traffic so that i could take a run up to get back onto the highway from where they had impounded the LT35. This trailer looked absolutely stupid behing the car, but it was legal ??!! My dad who'd had to drive my car 50 miles to meet me was absolutely dumfounded that they couldn't allow the truck to tow the trailer home, but they would allow the trailer behind the car. He even refused to drive the car and trailer. So I had to drive that and he drove the truck. Of cause, when I got stopped at Droitwich for having the trailer behind the car, my dad blew a gasket at the copper and nearly got booked for verbal assault.

I agree it would be a hell of a task to test drive every car and caravan combo. PC already has a good loading guide to help folks load the van correctly. There is a simple way of measuring the hitch weight which we all have seen before.
The best thing PC could do would be, to do a feature on where the VIN plates are on cars and how to read them correctly.
That in it's self would promote a good towing mindset. It would also be using the data that the police and vosa use, which would reduce the confusion when caravan outfit's are spot checked. People all too often refer to the handbook for their car, which usually covers all models and engine sizes in one generic book, and then can't understand why the VIN plate figures are not adding up to the info in the handbook.

 

[NigelHutson]

Steve,
I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet. I said that the 'vans were laden to 85%, which in fairness has been a guide and nothing more for years. Every outfit is different. However, for testing purposes, and so that all vehicles are on a level playing field, that 85% is used. It could be 75% or 95%, or any other figure for that matter.
The vehicles that do well, I'm sure would be fine towing more (much more in some cases), but there have been a number (particularly large Far Eastern 4X4's) that have been pretty appalling, both stability wise and dynamically, and yet we all see them belting along our roads.
I don't think that you have much chance of drivers understanding VIN plates when many seem to struggle with road signs, and dare I say it, speedometers (waits for the bombardment!).

 

[Lutz]

It is for the very same reason that I would propose testing all cars at their maximum permissible towload. Firstly, it would help the not insignificant number of owners who choose not to abide by the 85% recommendation to appreciate how good or bad a particular towcar is. Secondly, one can always be sure that a car that is good at its limit will be even better at 85% (always assuming, of course, that the limit is more than 85%

)