Heat pumps

[otherclive]

Our plan B during a power cut is to move into the caravan - it's parked on the drive with leisure battery fully charged and at least one full gas cylinder.

I've often wondered how energy companies protect "priority customers" from power cuts - which seem to affect everything supplied by the sub-station.

They can notify in advance of planned power cuts, but there’s a whole raft of other measures nothing to do with power cuts.

17 energy suppliers need to do more to help vulnerable customers this winter

Ofgem has published findings into the third of its series of ‘deep dives’ into how energy suppliers are helping customers this winter and beyond.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

 

[GUMPY]

As for having electricity when there is a power cut, it's now 34 days since I used grid electricity. Apart that is from a couple of times, like last night, when Octopus were paying me to use it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We have discussed Buckman's Air Sourced Heat Pump (ASHP) system at length in previous threads. I have no doubt he has suffered problems with his installation which has left him wanting for performance, but I have to say that his experience is not universal or typical of systems being installed now.

There are some customers like Buckman who have had problems with ASHP, but following investigation into the cause for the problems, its not a fundamental failure of the principle of heat pumps, its usually been down to one of the following causes:-

• Inappropriate design and specification of the system (Incompetence of project designer who has failed to interpret the customers needs correctly)
• Customers Budgetary constraint's which prevents the fitting of the optimal system.
• Failure of one or more parts of the system.
• System not being used as per the instructions (Customer does not understand how to use the system)

It is certainly true the UK has not used ASHP extensively until a few years ago, and as with any fledgling technology there can be hiccup's during early installs where the "professionals" are still actually learning process, or some have been doing shady cowboy bodges, and sadly there is no excuse for such people, and I wonder if this is what's happened to Buckman.

We are now a few years into the expansion of ASHP's for domestic use , and I hope the incidence of poor advice and fitting is a thing of the past. Of course there will be some troublesome installs, but hopefully the imbedded knowledge and wider choice of components should enable most problems to be resolved successfully and quite quickly. This is the background to the increasing number of installs and overall satisfaction with the technology.

Because Heat pumps do have up to 5 times the coefficient of performance (CoP) of a gas or oil fired boiler, they will continue to expand in market share, and
their relative costs will fall as take up increases.

 

[Buckman]

I've often wondered how energy companies protect "priority customers" from power cuts - which seem to affect everything supplied by the sub-station.

There is nothing they can do. It just looks good for them if they are able to state you are on the priority register.

But irrespective of the cost of electricity the home owner or business still wants to feel warm and comfortable. Grid reliability isn’t an issue because if power goes down a gas boiler heating system will not function either.

How long does it take for a gas system to reheat the home? As you have a heat pump you will know that it takes a lot longer for the home to get back up to temperature especially on a really cold day.

 

[Buckman]

We have discussed Buckman's Air Sourced Heat Pump (ASHP) system at length in previous threads. I have no doubt he has suffered problems with his installation which has left him wanting for performance, but I have to say that his experience is not universal or typical of systems being installed now.

There are some customers like Buckman who have had problems with ASHP, but following investigation into the cause for the problems, its not a fundamental failure of the principle of heat pumps, its usually been down to one of the following causes:-

• Inappropriate design and specification of the system (Incompetence of project designer who has failed to interpret the customers needs correctly)
• Customers Budgetary constraint's which prevents the fitting of the optimal system.
• Failure of one or more parts of the system.
• System not being used as per the instructions (Customer does not understand how to use the system)

It is certainly true the UK has not used ASHP extensively until a few years ago, and as with any fledgling technology there can be hiccup's during early installs where the "professionals" are still actually learning process, or some have been doing shady cowboy bodges, and sadly there is no excuse for such people, and I wonder if this is what's happened to Buckman.

We are now a few years into the expansion of ASHP's for domestic use , and I hope the incidence of poor advice and fitting is a thing of the past. Of course there will be some troublesome installs, but hopefully the imbedded knowledge and wider choice of components should enable most problems to be resolved successfully and quite quickly. This is the background to the increasing number of installs and overall satisfaction with the technology.

Because Heat pumps do have up to 5 times the coefficient of performance (CoP) of a gas or oil fired boiler, they will continue to expand in market share, and
their relative costs will fall as take up increases.

Do you have a heat pump installed and if so which model as ours is a Mitsubishi so a supposedly good manufacturer. Although ours now works as it should on cold days we have an issue and still have to use the gas fire. Another issue with heat pumps is that they are not silent and we can hear ours fire up even though it is the other side of the home. Not nice for neighbours!

 

[Dustydog]

Having a good CoP is one thing and technically can't be denied. But there are numerous downsides.
Eg failure to heat the house and water to acceptable levels.
They come with high upfront costs and , currently, reduced efficiency in cold weather plus noise as the bearings wear.
Also the filters block greatly reducing the outputs,

I accept they are in their infancy but the need for vast performance improvement will hopefully materialise over the years.
Let's hope they don't emulate the caravan industry 😉

 

[M1CXF]

Our plan B during a power cut is to move into the caravan - it's parked on the drive with leisure battery fully charged and at least one full gas cylinder.

I've often wondered how energy companies protect "priority customers" from power cuts - which seem to affect everything supplied by the sub-station.

I have looked at how this is done. The only reliable ways would be via wifi or bluetooth.
I registered as a disabled customer with my electricity supplier and was disgusted when I discovered that as my particular difficulties they ticked a box to describe me as having a "congenital learning disorder". I made a formal complaint but as expected didn't hear a thng. Pretty much what happens every time I ask them anything.

 

[otherclive]

I have looked at how this is done. The only reliable ways would be via wifi or bluetooth.
I registered as a disabled customer with my electricity supplier and was disgusted when I discovered that as my particular difficulties they ticked a box to describe me as having a "congenital learning disorder". I made a formal complaint but as expected didn't hear a thng. Pretty much what happens every time I ask them anything.

Bluetooth only works for short distances snd wifi requires power to the router. So unless you have a back up power supply the router will not work in the event of a power cut.
Being realistic there’s not much an energy provider can do in the event of an electric power outage. It’s got to be self help I’m afraid.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Having a good CoP is one thing and technically can't be denied. But there are numerous downsides.
Eg failure to heat the house and water to acceptable levels.
They come with high upfront costs and , currently, reduced efficiency in cold weather plus noise as the bearings wear.
Also the filters block greatly reducing the outputs,

I accept they are in their infancy but the need for vast performance improvement will hopefully materialise over the years.
Let's hope they don't emulate the caravan industry 😉

If any heating system is unable to meet the customers requirements, that has to be down to the project designer either not understanding your requirements or not choosing the the correctly sized system. Its not a fundamental flaw with the heat pump.

Now I do accept that Heat pumped systems are still quite expensive, and that budgetary restrictions might limit what equipment can be specified, but that is not a limitation caused by the technology.

Worn bearings and blocked filters are not unique to Heat pumps. I've had cars, washing machines, Cooker hoods, vacuum cleaners and a gas boiler where bearings and filters have needed attention.

I do agree about not following the UK caravan model.

 

[Buckman]

If any heating system is unable to meet the customers requirements, that has to be down to the project designer either not understanding your requirements or not choosing the the correctly sized system. Its not a fundamental flaw with the heat pump.

It does matter on the manufacturer as all heat pumps in the UK seem suffer from the same issue in cold weather. Therefore highly unlikely to be any of the above you mention and you will know this from your experience with your own heat pump.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

My only experience of heat pumps was during a visit to a National Trust property which had one running.
It was located in a lovely garden area with seating scattered around the outside path but no-one was sitting out there due to the noise emanating from the unit.
I'll stick to the open fire burning wood from windfall trees thank you.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Do you have a heat pump installed and if so which model as ours is a Mitsubishi so a supposedly good manufacturer. Although ours now works as it should on cold days we have an issue and still have to use the gas fire. Another issue with heat pumps is that they are not silent and we can hear ours fire up even though it is the other side of the home. Not nice for neighbours!

That is an illogical statement, as clearly the system is not working the way you would like it to, Which if we take the first part as meaning it working as well as it can, then it clearly shows your systems was not adequately designed or installed as it fails to provide the level of heating you want in cold weather.

That is not a fundamental problem with the technology, but it is a failure of the installation project's design and specification.

Gas boilers are not silent either, granted HP evaporator fans are large and will be noisier than most gas boilers, but again the designer of the project should have taken noise annoyance into consideration and include noise abatement principles to minimise the issue.

It does matter on the manufacturer as all heat pumps in the UK seem suffer from the same issue in cold weather. Therefore highly unlikely to be any of the above you mention and you will know this from your experience with your own heat pump.

The ability of ASHP to collect and deliver interior warmth will always be affected by the ambient weather conditions. That should not be in question. That is why its important the choice of ASHP unit, should be done to take into account the worst case weather conditions, to ensure it has the ability to collect and transfer enough heat energy to meet the customers needs/wishes.

If the system has been correctly sized for the project and yet it still isn't producing the required heat, then there must be something wrong with the system. Or an undersized system was chosen. Its not the fault of the principle for HP's.

 

[Dustydog]

Clive’s reference from #18 may put most people off for life😉

High-Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps – A Good or Bad idea?

A heat pump is a way of using electricity to heat your home, in energy efficient way. Unlike an electric panel heater, a heat pump has a compressor, which increases the amount of heat that can be generated from each unit of electricity. For a panel heater, that ratio is 1:1. For most heat pumps...

nef.org.uk

The one at my sister’s holiday barn in Norfolk was housed in an 8x6 ft shed in the yard. The LA Planners would not allow it to mounted on the listed Barn walls. There was a constant “noise” when running.

Has anyone else first hand experience of these things?

 

[Buckman]

Clive’s reference from #18 may put most people off for life😉

High-Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps – A Good or Bad idea?

A heat pump is a way of using electricity to heat your home, in energy efficient way. Unlike an electric panel heater, a heat pump has a compressor, which increases the amount of heat that can be generated from each unit of electricity. For a panel heater, that ratio is 1:1. For most heat pumps...

nef.org.uk

The one at my sister’s holiday barn in Norfolk was housed in an 8x6 ft shed in the yard. The LA Planners would not allow it to mounted on the listed Barn walls. There was a constant “noise” when running.

Has anyone else first hand experience of these things?

The new build that the daughter & family are moving into have a heat pump and it nearly twice the size of our heat pump. It is a 2 bedroom upstairs and downstairs. It will be a couple of months before they find out about its efficiency. At present home heating is oil. Gas is not an option in their village.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Governments, of any colour, largely ignore long term issues

I wonder why new builds don't use ground source heat pumps, much better than air source - would be easy fit the underground pipes while the foundations are being done

The problem with ground source is that if you're using the underground loop system rather than a bore hole, it needs a considerably amount of land to put this under. Most modern developments have pocket size gardens and you can't - well really don't want to put the loop under the house. You may be looking at a couple of trenches or more at least 30-40m metres in length.

Imagine a housing development where every house had a trench type ground source system - if space allowed. Would you run the risk of having permafrost as all the energy is sucked out of the ground.

My neighbour installed his using the bore hole he had to have to get water from an underground source. So no additional cost of drilling.

 

[otherclive]

If any heating system is unable to meet the customers requirements, that has to be down to the project designer either not understanding your requirements or not choosing the the correctly sized system. Its not a fundamental flaw with the heat pump.

Now I do accept that Heat pumped systems are still quite expensive, and that budgetary restrictions might limit what equipment can be specified, but that is not a limitation caused by the technology.

Worn bearings and blocked filters are not unique to Heat pumps. I've had cars, washing machines, Cooker hoods, vacuum cleaners and a gas boiler where bearings and filters have needed attention.

I do agree about not following the UK caravan model.

failed. And filters may need to maintained

Last year our daughter’s Baxi combi condensing boiler had a new pump, fan and a new burner assembly as her next door neighbour complained that it kept her awake. She goes to bed very early. This year daughter has had a dummy sound deadening wall installed to reduce noise that the neighbour can hear. Things like toilet flush, kitchen cooker hood, boiler igniting. I’ve even lined an outdoor shed with sound deadening to quieten the rabbits thumping, but that wasn’t a success so they now sleep in the garage. Can’t wait for the chance to have a heat pump fitted 🙈

 

[Sam Vimes]

One thing that often gets overlooked is the suitability of the house in respect of its construction. Retrofitting an heat pump into a house that is poorly insulated and leaks like a sieve is throwing money away. These two issues need to be address first and in older housing its often impossible.

Interesting to note that the Scottish government has scrapped the idea of making all newly purchased homes switch to heat pumps. One of the factors stated was cost.

 

[otherclive]

Clive’s reference from #18 may put most people off for life😉

High-Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps – A Good or Bad idea?

A heat pump is a way of using electricity to heat your home, in energy efficient way. Unlike an electric panel heater, a heat pump has a compressor, which increases the amount of heat that can be generated from each unit of electricity. For a panel heater, that ratio is 1:1. For most heat pumps...

nef.org.uk

The one at my sister’s holiday barn in Norfolk was housed in an 8x6 ft shed in the yard. The LA Planners would not allow it to mounted on the listed Barn walls. There was a constant “noise” when running.

Has anyone else first hand experience of these things?

My grandson has decided against having one in his new ID7 Tourer as the extra cost outweighed the extra 10-15 miles range.

 

[Buckman]

One thing that often gets overlooked is the suitability of the house in respect of its construction. Retrofitting an heat pump into a house that is poorly insulated and leaks like a sieve is throwing money away. These two issues need to be address first and in older housing its often impossible.

Interesting to note that the Scottish government has scrapped the idea of making all newly purchased homes switch to heat pumps. One of the factors stated was cost.

The Scots a re a lot wiser than the fools managing England's energy. LOL!

 

[Hutch]

My only experience of heat pumps was during a visit to a National Trust property which had one running.
It was located in a lovely garden area with seating scattered around the outside path but no-one was sitting out there due to the noise emanating from the unit.
I'll stick to the open fire burning wood from windfall trees thank you.

Especially in my local pub, nice and cosy , with candles and a Tilly lamp when the power goes off.

 

[Hutch]

And I wonder why Some folks look at Practical caravan, say hello and then disappear.

 

[Dustydog]

And I wonder why Some folks look at Practical caravan, say hello and then disappear.

As an Aviation Engineer you know better than most all the manuals on earth could not fully explain the things you experienced hands on.
Did you ever find the left handed screwdriver?

There can be no substitute for actual experience.
Border Billy is over dosing on Popcorn😁

 

[Hutch]

Snap On, do an Ambidextrous one.

 

[Mel]

I have spent some time unpicking and deleting the argumentative and quoted argumentative comments that were building in this thread. This has required deleting some comments that were less argumentative than others for consistency. This is as an alternative to locking the thread.
Opinions can be based on lots of factors including technical knowledge and personal experience. Please respect the range of opinions.
Thank you
Mel

 

[Buckman]

I have spent some time unpicking and deleting the argumentative and quoted argumentative comments that were building in this thread. This has required deleting some comments that were less argumentative than others for consistency. This is as an alternative to locking the thread.
Opinions can be based on lots of factors including technical knowledge and personal experience. Please respect the range of opinions.
Thank you
Mel

So in essence theory is better than actual hands on experience? Very strange?