heavy empty caravan

[otherclive]

"Jojo lives in Portugal, so probably did not purchase his new Hobby caravan in the UK where the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is in force. "

First, I was unaware from reading the OP that he lived outside the UK, however as Portugal is also within the EU and our CRA 2015 has its roots in an EU directive, the "Consumer Rights Directive", it remains a valid point, much in his interest, that they also would have implemented a very similar law as ours.

If he neither purchased the Hobby in Portugal or the UK, there remains the very high probability it was purchased in an EU country where such consumer protection legislation from mis-selling is in place.

As I understand it Directiives are policy guidance and individual countries have a lot of leeway as to how they implement them. U.K. has tended to go for Gold Standard implementation whereas others go minimalist. So only anyone conversant with Portuguese consumer law can advise. IE Jojo

are eu directives legally binding - Bing

Mit der intelligenten Bing-Suche können Sie die gewünschten Informationen schneller und einfacher finden und dabei Punkte sammeln.

www.bing.com

 

[Hobbyt600]

My 'living in Portugal' assumption comes from Jojo's 1st forum posting in the "New Member Introductions" forum.

I don't KNOW if my Portugal assumption is correct, but if it is it could be relevant If Jojo eventually seeks to reject the caravan for being unfit for purpose.

With no feedback from Jojo about Portugal or vendor contact, consumer legislation fine detail is rather academic for now.

 

[otherclive]

But it was you in your second post who brought up the need to check Portuguese consumer legislation and even provided a link. Fine detail or just useful discussion?

However it would be very helpful if OP clarified his position wrt where the caravan was purchased.

 

[Hobbyt600]

What I said in my 2nd posting was

Jojo lives in Portugal, so probably did not purchase his new Hobby caravan in the UK where the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is in force.

Assuming that Portugal was where he obtained the caravan, consumer guidance is here.

and then I inserted a link to a webpage that carries such guidance.

I never suggested that the information on that website should be discussed on this forum and - if Jojo does not live in Portugal - the guidance would of course be irrelevant. But if Jojo does live in Portugal, the link might be useful for him.

It's now very easy to insert links into forum postings here and, if 'stuff' is available on-line that might be useful, providing a link to it may be worthwhile and often save a lot of time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jojo.

Welcome to the forum,

Your question about your caravans suspension is going to be very difficult to answer becasue we don't have enough information about your problem. Part of our difficulties will be that Hobby caravans are not especially common in the UK, so there will not be many people who might have all the relevant knowledge to help.

I am not familiar with the detail of Hobby caravans, so I cannot interpret the picture you have supplied to tell me if the remaining travel on the damper is normal or too little.

In situations like this it is often better to source help from local specialists who can establish by seeing, touching and testing the equipment if there is a problem or not.

You do tell us the caravan is new, so it is usually the best approach to ask your seller to help with the diagnosis, and necessary repairs under warranty.

You do tell us in you live in Portugal, and assuming that means you purchased the caravan locally, if there is any dispute about the condition of your caravan, you will have use your local consumer rights processes to try and get it sorted.

It is very helpful to us to if you can keep us informed about how you get on with trying to get your difficulties resolved. The feedback increases our knowledge and helps us to refine advice for similar problems.

Best of luck.

 

[Hutch]

Where did we get that JoJo was living in Portugal. I have double checked the posting. Cant find it.

 

[Jojo]

thank you all

Yes i'm from portugal and i live there. I bought the caravan in a local seller approved by Germany Hobby.
The caravan came from germany but the seller in portugal did not alert me to the total weight.
I didn't weigh the caravan but i'm sure the weight is at the limit (1350kg) or there are no realistic payload. I forgot to say that I also have a gas BBQ (15kg).

From all of you people i realized that I will have to change the tires (now i have 195 70R14 96N), and the axle from 1350kg to 1500kg. I'm waiting for the hobby answer to know what I can do.

 

[Damian]

You have done the right thing by contacting Hobby and get their advice .
Once you know what is needed, and if you can get it arranged, then you should be Ok for the future.
Please let us know the outcome once you have answers.
Good luck .

 

[Hutch]

Yes thanks jojo, for your answer, keep us informed.
Hutch.

 

[Jojo]

Hello Jojo.

Welcome to the forum,

Your question about your caravans suspension is going to be very difficult to answer becasue we don't have enough information about your problem. Part of our difficulties will be that Hobby caravans are not especially common in the UK, so there will not be many people who might have all the relevant knowledge to help.

I am not familiar with the detail of Hobby caravans, so I cannot interpret the picture you have supplied to tell me if the remaining travel on the damper is normal or too little.

In situations like this it is often better to source help from local specialists who can establish by seeing, touching and testing the equipment if there is a problem or not.

You do tell us the caravan is new, so it is usually the best approach to ask your seller to help with the diagnosis, and necessary repairs under warranty.

You do tell us in you live in Portugal, and assuming that means you purchased the caravan locally, if there is any dispute about the condition of your caravan, you will have use your local consumer rights processes to try and get it sorted.

It is very helpful to us to if you can keep us informed about how you get on with trying to get your difficulties resolved. The feedback increases our knowledge and helps us to refine advice for similar problems.

Best of luck.

I live in a small country and the dealer has little experience, so he did not prevent the weight problems of extra equipment.
It is not easy in Portugal to enforce our rights, the courts take too long, so if i have to change anything i have to do it myself.

 

[Hobbyt600]

No longer really relevant as Jojo is progressing the damper/axle issue via Hobby, but this still might be of interest.

A 181-page English-language 2019 Hobby caravan “Operation Guide” is downloadable and includes information about the weight allowances included in their caravans’ mass-in-running-order figure.

The weight allowances for a 460 UFE would seem to total 66.5kg made up of

Gas - 16.5kg for a single aluminium bottle (5.5kg) + 11kg of gas.

Fluids - 50kg , comprising 25kg for fresh-water + 10kg for water boiler + 15kg for toilet flush-water.

A standard 460 UFE’s axle is a Knott VGB 13 M that has a permitted axle-load of 1350kg.

https://www.knott-trailer-shop.com/axles_with_brakes-59.html

The Hobby Operations Guide also includes technical data relating to chassis weight increases that Hobby offers as an option when ordering a caravan and - for a 1500kg Hobby 460 UFE model - the differences seem to be

1: A heavier-duty VGB 15 MV axle that has a permitted axle-load of 1500kg

https://www.knott-trailer-shop.com/axles_braked-2.html

2: An additional rear crossbar for the chassis

3: Tyres with a higher load index (102 rather than 96)

(I would expect heavier-duty dampers to be fitted too, though this is not mentioned in the Operations Guide.)

The weight ‘penalty’ for the axle/crossbar/tyres revisions is said to be 13kg.

The 460 UFE model has been reviewed in the past and a (French) article highlighted the limited payload of the standard 1350kg-chassis version.

The extra cost of ordering a 1500kg 460 UFE instead of a 1350kg is around €390 but (assuming it were actually practicable to do this) converting a 1350kg 460 UFE into a 1500kg by replacing the original axle/tyres/dampers and fitting the additional chassis cross-member would be far more expensive.

 

[otherclive]

Thank you. I have noticed previously how precise are the German manuals and brochures. Also how relatively inexpensive are the factory fit weight upgrades. Surprised at the large allowance for fluids in the MRO. Who requires a full flush tank when in transit.
My axle change on an Alko with like for like as Swift would not authorise an upgrade so Alko wouldn’t supply, cost £1300. Interesting to know what Jojo will be quoted.

 

[Hobbyt600]

Hobby provides an on-line ‘Konfigurator’ that allows a caravan model to be selected and the effect on its payload of choosing factory-available options to be calculated. (The Konfigurator feature only seems to be offered in a small number of languages (not in English) and isn’t easy to find unless one knows that it exists.)

The Konfigurator seems to show that the standard 1350kg 460 UFE model has minimal real-world payload (ie. less than 60kg) and, even when the 1500kg upgrade is selected, care would be needed not to go overweight when selecting options when ordering a new 460 UFE or retro-fitting accessories subsequently.

Regarding Hobby’s definition of what weight allowances are included in the mass-in-running-order figure, at least Hobby says what those allowances are. So if a Hobby caravan owner always chooses to travel with empty fresh-water and/or toilet flush-water reservoirs, the owner can know how much weight is being ‘saved’.

(I’m aware that caravan owners are careful about ‘noseweight’, but are they equally careful about not exceeding their caravan’s overall and axle weight maxima - or are those maxima generally ignored?)

 

[otherclive]

Hobby provides an on-line ‘Konfigurator’ that allows a caravan model to be selected and the effect on its payload of choosing factory-available options to be calculated. (The Konfigurator feature only seems to be offered in a small number of languages (not in English) and isn’t easy to find unless one knows that it exists.)

The Konfigurator seems to show that the standard 1350kg 460 UFE model has minimal real-world payload (ie. less than 60kg) and, even when the 1500kg upgrade is selected, care would be needed not to go overweight when selecting options when ordering a new 460 UFE or retro-fitting accessories subsequently.

Regarding Hobby’s definition of what weight allowances are included in the mass-in-running-order figure, at least Hobby says what those allowances are. So if a Hobby caravan owner always chooses to travel with empty fresh-water and/or toilet flush-water reservoirs, the owner can know how much weight is being ‘saved’.

(I’m aware that caravan owners are careful about ‘noseweight’, but are they equally careful about not exceeding their caravan’s overall and axle weight maxima - or are those maxima generally ignored?)

From seeing what some owners offload when arriving on site I suspect many are overweight on MTPLM. Over recent years I’ve noticed that some vans have quite low payloads for the overall unit weight. These tend to be the higher specified vans such as Coachman, Conquerer etc. A two berth could have a payload of 125 kg and bearing in mind MRO generally only allows for one 10 kg (max) gas bottle and no battery it’s easy to calculate that a battery, extra gas and a mover would virtually use up the remaining payload. This could explain why I see outfits with just a couple in them having to fit roof boxes in order to get everything in that they require. As cars get lighter the problem has exacerbated.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Where did we get that JoJo was living in Portugal. I have double checked the posting. Cant find it.

Jo Jo told us in the New Member area.

 

[Lutz]

Am I correct in assuming that caravans are registered in their own right in Portugal? If so, replacing the 1350kg axle with a 1500kg one will not only involve a technical modification ( I was quoted 1500 Euros for a similar retrofit on my previous caravan on an AlKo chassis), but also the registration document will have to be amended accordingly. This may involve prior technical approval through a Centro de Inspeção Técnica de Veículos (CITV). They, in turn, would need a Certificate of Conformity from the manufacturer (Hobby) documenting the increase from 1350kg to 1500kg, applicable to the chassis number of your particular caravan.

 

[Jojo]

This is my problem. Now to move from 1350kg to 1500kg will be very expensive, axle, shock absorbers, brake, documents - 2000.00 € let's see what the hobby says.

 

[Jojo]

Now with my weight problem, I find that the axles do not have a safety margin. the weight limit of the caravan matches the axle limit.

Is it true that the axles do not have a safety margin?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jojo,

(edit added) There is no" safety margin" given on axlethe load limit. It is an absolute limit, and you should ensure you don't exceed it.

You must not over load the axle above its stated load limit, otherwise it may be damaged when towing, and your would be breaking the law in any EU country.

 

[Lutz]

I don't know quite what you mean by a safety margin. If you mean a safety margin over the maximum allowable static load to cater for dynamic peaks then this is certainly taken into account. The limit imposed on the caravan only reflects the axle load limit and it is common practice, especially among Continental manufacturers such as Hobby, to simply repeat the axle load limit on the type approval plate for the finished caravan. All plated limits are absolute and must not be exceeded.

 

[Hobbyt600]

For a single-axle caravan, won’t the maximum axle-load value shown on the caravan’s 'data-plate’ normally be identical to the caravan’s maximum overall weight value on the data-plate?

For a caravan with more than one axle - the maximum axle-load value for each axle will obviously be much less than the caravan’s maximum overall weight, and the total of those axle-load values should match (or exceed) the maximum overall weight value.

Can single-axle caravans have a maximum axle-load value that is higher than the caravan’s maximum overall weight value? If so, that would be very risky practice, as it might well suggest to an owner that the difference is a ‘safety margin’ that could be exploited.

 

[otherclive]

For a single-axle caravan, won’t the maximum axle-load value shown on the caravan’s 'data-plate’ normally be identical to the caravan’s maximum overall weight value on the data-plate?

For a caravan with more than one axle - the maximum axle-load value for each axle will obviously be much less than the caravan’s maximum overall weight, and the total of those axle-load values should match (or exceed) the maximum overall weight value.

Can single-axle caravans have a maximum axle-load value that is higher than the caravan’s maximum overall weight value? If so, that would be very risky practice, as it might well suggest to an owner that the difference is a ‘safety margin’ that could be exploited.

I had a Bailey where the axle load limit was 1400 kg but MTPLM was 1360 kg. I had the payload upgrade to 1400 kg and the only changes were a new certificate of conformity and a new stick in tally plate for positioning by the door. Same with my current van too. No change to plate in the front locker which showed max axle load.

 

[Lutz]

It is quite common practice among UK manufacturers to specify a maximum weight for the caravan that is less than the axle load limit. This is because they base the maximum weight (MTPLM) not on any technical constraints, but on the unladen weight (MIRO or mass in running order) and simply add a payload calculated on based on an industry standard (BS EN 1645-2) which, however, has no legal basis. This way, they artificially try to restrict the MTPLM to a value lower than what the axle would allow in an attempt to make the caravan with a lower MTPLM more attractive to the buying public, especially those that only have a Category B licence which is restricted to 3500kg gross combination weight. For customers who do not suffer from this restriction they offer so-called 'upgrades' which do nothing more than bring the MTPLM into line with the maximum allowable axle load. Hence, no technical modification is required or involved.
Whether such practice of artificially restricting the MTPLM would hold up in a court of law is debatable because the existing statutory plate on the caravan already shows the type approved MTPLM which normally coincides with the axle load rating, so the information is already there. The caravan is in fact displaying two different MTPLMs, which is nonsense really.
Continental manufacturers do not resort to such dubious practice.

 

[Lutz]

I had a Bailey where the axle load limit was 1400 kg but MTPLM was 1360 kg. I had the payload upgrade to 1400 kg and the only changes were a new certificate of conformity and a new stick in tally plate for positioning by the door. Same with my current van too. No change to plate in the front locker which showed max axle load.

The certificate of conformity that you were issued with is an NCC certificate which only states that the caravan complies with certain industry standards. It is not the same as a the Certificate of Conformity to type approval requirements and therefore has no documentary value for the purpose of meeting legal requirements.
The plate in the front locker already showed the higher (type approved) MTPLM and max. axle load.

 

[otherclive]

It is quite common practice among UK manufacturers to specify a maximum weight for the caravan that is less than the axle load limit. This is because they base the maximum weight (MTPLM) not on any technical constraints, but on the unladen weight (MIRO or mass in running order) and simply add a payload calculated on based on an industry standard (BS EN 1645-2) which, however, has no legal basis. This way, they artificially try to restrict the MTPLM to a value lower than what the axle would allow in an attempt to make the caravan with a lower MTPLM more attractive to the buying public, especially those that only have a Category B licence which is restricted to 3500kg gross combination weight. For customers who do not suffer from this restriction they offer so-called 'upgrades' which do nothing more than bring the MTPLM into line with the maximum allowable axle load. Hence, no technical modification is required or involved.
Whether such practice of artificially restricting the MTPLM would hold up in a court of law is debatable because the existing statutory plate on the caravan already shows the type approved MTPLM which normally coincides with the axle load rating, so the information is already there. The caravan is in fact displaying two different MTPLMs, which is nonsense really.
Continental manufacturers do not resort to such dubious practice.

in the case if my Bailey it also allowed Bailey to offer a higher specified model with a higher MRO and MTPLM without requiring a change to the chassis or axle. But payload was reduced as the increase in MRO was greater than the increase in MTPLM.
What Bailey didn’t say was that in the case of my upgrade it took the OEM tyres total load limit to within 20 kg of the MTPLM. Viz 1420kg tyre load cf to 1400kg upgraded MTPLM. Needless to say higher LI tyres were fitted.