I did say that there was no change to the plate fixed in the front locker. So I’m well aware that both Bailey and Swifts paperwork is basically to maintain the configuration record for the caravan.
I did say that there was no change to the plate fixed in the front locker. So I’m well aware that both Bailey and Swifts paperwork is basically to maintain the configuration record for the caravan.
The type approved MTPLM that is always shown on the statutory plates is based on technical constraints and not on any payload. There is no piece of legislation that provides for a lower figure based on MIRO plus an added calculated payload. Hence, it is doubtful whether the label next to the door has anything more than informative value for the point of sale. All details required by law are already shown on the statutory plate so there can be nothing illegal in simply removing the label by the door to achieve a so-called 'upgrade'.
Note that the above only applies if the caravan has both a label by the door and a type approval plate in the front locker. Some UK manufacturers have recently started to include the statutory details on the label by the door, thereby combining the two labels (or plates) into one. In such case one would, of course, not be able to remove the label by the door.
The MTPLM shown on the plate in the front locker is the type approved value and that is covered by the Certificate of Conformity, which is a legal document. You may or may not have been issued with a copy of this certificate when you bought the caravan, but it is that document that the manufacturer has to hold in safe keeping in case of an issue of product liability in a court of law. There are no provisions in legislation for any other document.
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Our caravan does have a higher limit for the chassis than the caravan of 30 kg. The dealer had shown the MTPLM as the higher figure which if I had not understood the correct situation and told them might have left them open to problems if they had sold it to someone who did not understand the figures. It is probably worth checking the figures for yourself before buying just to be sure.
Do I understand you correctly that the same plate shows a higher MTPLM than the maximum permissible axle load? That would indeed be very unusual.
In my experience the modern stick on labels by the door have a 2-3 year life before they become illegible. My replacements provided as part of the payload upgrade are retained in my caravan documents travelling folder.
My point was that such labels aren't of any documentary value as far as fulfilment of legal requirements is concerned. Only the statutory plate that is required by law has that and it shows both the maximum permissible axle load and MTPLM as well as the max. noseweight, in addition to the type approval and vehicle identification numbers. Without all this information it's not a plate that is recognised by the regulations.
Returning to the OP's issue, his caravan, having originated in Germany and now in Portugal, will not have a label next to the door, so it's something that wouldn't concern him as it only affects caravans sold in the UK and not even those destined for export.
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Hobbyt600
BANNED
Unlike the UK, Portugal has a mandatory caravan registration (matriculation) scheme.
My understanding of EU Type Approval is that (unless a vehicle’s original Certificate of Conformity (CoC) contained erroneous information) the original CoC is essentially ‘set in stone’. Consequently, even if major changes were made to a vehicle after it had been sold, the vehicle’s manufacturer would not issue a replacement CoC to reflect those changes.
I’ve not looked into Portugal’s matriculation system, but I’d expect certain technical data on a caravan’s CoC to be copied into the caravan’s matriculation records - things like maximum weight figures and tyre size.
If JoJo’s caravan’s maximum weight were ‘uprated’ from 1350kg to 1500kg by swapping its axle, changing its tyres, etc it’s probable that those modifications would need to be entered into the caravan’s matriculation record, and it’s quite likely that an official examination would also be required to confirm that the changes had been carried out properly. (That’s certainly what would happen in France.) As has been mentioned above, a new data-plate would be required to authenticate the revised weight maxima and (presumably) Hobby would have to provide this.
Although Jojo’s earlier photo of his caravan’s damper and his comment about the axle trailng arms being near-horizontal strongly suggest that the caravan (although empty) weighs at least 1350kg, the caravan’s exact weight has not been stated.
If this were my caravan I’d want it weighed very accurately to confirm whether or not its weight exceeds 1350kg and, if so, by how much. At present the (perhaps small) possibility exists that Jojo’s caravan weighs under 1350kg, but there’s a fault with the axle’s torsion springing. And, if Jojo’s caravan is overweight but the excees amount is not known, there is the possibility that the extra 150kg of payload provided by an upgrade to 1500kg would still be inadequate.
My understanding of EU Type Approval is that (unless a vehicle’s original Certificate of Conformity (CoC) contained erroneous information) the original CoC is essentially ‘set in stone’. Consequently, even if major changes were made to a vehicle after it had been sold, the vehicle’s manufacturer would not issue a replacement CoC to reflect those changes.
I’ve not looked into Portugal’s matriculation system, but I’d expect certain technical data on a caravan’s CoC to be copied into the caravan’s matriculation records - things like maximum weight figures and tyre size.
If JoJo’s caravan’s maximum weight were ‘uprated’ from 1350kg to 1500kg by swapping its axle, changing its tyres, etc it’s probable that those modifications would need to be entered into the caravan’s matriculation record, and it’s quite likely that an official examination would also be required to confirm that the changes had been carried out properly. (That’s certainly what would happen in France.) As has been mentioned above, a new data-plate would be required to authenticate the revised weight maxima and (presumably) Hobby would have to provide this.
Although Jojo’s earlier photo of his caravan’s damper and his comment about the axle trailng arms being near-horizontal strongly suggest that the caravan (although empty) weighs at least 1350kg, the caravan’s exact weight has not been stated.
If this were my caravan I’d want it weighed very accurately to confirm whether or not its weight exceeds 1350kg and, if so, by how much. At present the (perhaps small) possibility exists that Jojo’s caravan weighs under 1350kg, but there’s a fault with the axle’s torsion springing. And, if Jojo’s caravan is overweight but the excees amount is not known, there is the possibility that the extra 150kg of payload provided by an upgrade to 1500kg would still be inadequate.
Lutz
Thank you I think I understand the significance of the labels and tally plates. I retain the labels as when I sell a van I stick the valid one near to the door. As that is what most buyers look for. They probably may not be aware of the subtleties of UK/EU legislation.
I appreciate what you are saying, but the issue at stake here is a caravan built by a German manufacturer and sold in Portugal so anything to do with labels by the door is irrelevant. My comments centred around the statutory plate only and that applies to the UK just as much as to Portugal or Germany.
Hobbyt600
BANNED
It is good to learn from all of you.
my question was about the axle weight limit and the caravan weight limit according to the manufacturer we always walk the limit and it should not be so there should be a safety margin for the axle to perform at its best
my question was about the axle weight limit and the caravan weight limit according to the manufacturer we always walk the limit and it should not be so there should be a safety margin for the axle to perform at its best
Hello again Jojo,
The subject of trailer weights gets very complex to explain. It requires adopting a scientific approach to the forces and reactions involved, and you need to be clear about the technical differences between weight, mass, loads, and force, and to appreciate the strict differences between measured loads and limits in the definitions used to describe particular aspects of trailers.
Please forgive me if i'm wrong, but we know you live in Protugal, and I think I detect that English is not your native tongue, and that might make it difficult for me to present the information in a way I can be certain you will full y understand.
So I ask you to accept that both the caravan manufacturer and the chassis manufacturer are acting perfectly logically. The axle load limit must never be less than the trailers maximum trailed load capacity.
In a rather simplified way, most caravan manufacturers design a caravan and work out its maximum load bearing capacity. They then have to choose suitable axle components from a set of standardised chassis standard parts. It's highly likely their calculations will fall between two axle values. To ensure the safety of the caravan, they have to choose the nearest preferred value that is greater than their calculated figure.
In some but not all cases, the caravan manufacture may be able to allow the weight capacity of the caravan body to be increased to match the axle rating. But other construction factors may limit limit or prevent any increase. It will depend on the model of caravan involved.
As for safety margins. The manufactures have to include in their design considerations the effect of towing on the caravan. Caravans are subject to lots of different motions which produce accelerations. These act on the mass of the caravan and produce extra forces which change the loads on the components of the caravan continually. The components are designed to cope with these changes of load. These are where the margins of safety are involved.
Whilst the components must have these margins of safety, they are not available to be used for excess payload, becasue any excess load is multiplied by the effects of motion and erode the margins of safety.
I'm sorry you don't seem to have much pay load capacity in your caravan, That is one of the things you should have considered before buying the caravan.
........the OP should realise that his caravan suspension should not be compared with suspension found on most other vehicles.
There is very little movement in caravan suspension so if shock absorbers are fitted they will not have such a range of travel as would be found as those of say the tow vehicle.
Caravan suspension in Europe is based on the compression of rubber strips and it is well documented that this design has inherent shock absorbing characteristics on it's own without any additional shock absorbing.
Newer caravans normally have shock absorbers fitted as standard since they are relatively cheap and considered to be an improvement.
The axle rating of his caravan will be chosen by the caravan builder to be adequate provided it is not overloaded.
The margin left by the manufacturer for the owner to load their own items (payload) is part of that manufacture's specification and subject to choice by any prospective buyer.
There is very little movement in caravan suspension so if shock absorbers are fitted they will not have such a range of travel as would be found as those of say the tow vehicle.
Caravan suspension in Europe is based on the compression of rubber strips and it is well documented that this design has inherent shock absorbing characteristics on it's own without any additional shock absorbing.
Newer caravans normally have shock absorbers fitted as standard since they are relatively cheap and considered to be an improvement.
The axle rating of his caravan will be chosen by the caravan builder to be adequate provided it is not overloaded.
The margin left by the manufacturer for the owner to load their own items (payload) is part of that manufacture's specification and subject to choice by any prospective buyer.
Sorry if I confused you but it is the other way round. As far as I can tell the employee booking the caravan in used the chassis limit without noticing the caravan manufacturers MTPLM was lower, this was also transferred to the window sticker showing the caravan details.
Yes it is a 1350 kg max load axle with its maximum speed rating in Kmh. The bar code will aid Hobby in defining the specific axle fitted in all its details as shown on its drawings and parts lists.
d
Hello Jojo,
All the information about the axle is on the data plate you have photographed.
The axle manufacturers part number is given along with the important weight of 1350kg, and a maximum towing speed of 140Kmph.
The manufacturer has designed the axle to safely carry 1350kg under all normal towing conditions. up to 140kmph
It would be illegal to load the axle beyond 1350kg or to tow it faster than 140Kmph, I'm not sure what else you want or need to know?
I
i hope Knott are better than Alko as when my axle suspension had a fault I supplied a picture of the axles label just like you have taken. But Alko came back and said they wouldn’t supply a replacement axle until I confirmed several critical dimensions. They sent me a drawing showing the dimensions. Plus the measurements had to be taken by an approved Alko dealership. They were so complex that I eventually had to take it to a workshop who put it up in the air and used two technicians to do the measurements. It doesn’t say much for Alko’s configuration control or their on axle labelling does it.
Hobbyt600
BANNED
There is plenty of information on-line about the Knott VGB 13 M axle that is identified by the chassis-label in Jojo’s photo, and is also provided in the other forum thread that is running in tandem with this one.
https://forums.practicalcaravan.com/threads/heavy-empty-caravan.60522/
However, if Jojo’s Hobby caravan is overweight, an in-depth understanding of its axle’s design, construction and operation won’t change that.
https://forums.practicalcaravan.com/threads/heavy-empty-caravan.60522/
However, if Jojo’s Hobby caravan is overweight, an in-depth understanding of its axle’s design, construction and operation won’t change that.
Damian
Moderator
Moderator Note:
The topics that were running in tandem was creating confusion and duplication of information.
I have therefore merged both into one.
It is not acceptable to run two basically identical threads at the same time.
I would also add that as the topic has run to 70 replies, none of which have solved the original problem, it may be best to leave the topic where it is until JoJo has had any communication with Hobby, who are the only ones able to give him the answers he needs.
The topics that were running in tandem was creating confusion and duplication of information.
I have therefore merged both into one.
It is not acceptable to run two basically identical threads at the same time.
I would also add that as the topic has run to 70 replies, none of which have solved the original problem, it may be best to leave the topic where it is until JoJo has had any communication with Hobby, who are the only ones able to give him the answers he needs.
But the MTPLM and the axle load rating are displayed on the same statutory plate, so it seems strange that anyone should overlook one or the other figure when they are both there together.
the axle i show is not the same we found on regular knott catalog, is the VGB13M but with different links to the chassis (is not the standard).
Hobbyt600
BANNED
Apparently the springing of the axles of Hobby caravans made in the early-2000s involved a metal torsion-bar, but it’s evident from drawings on the Knott website that the VGB 13 M axle fitted to Jojo’s caravan employs the usual rubber-in-compression system you’ve mentioned (besides which Jojo referred to “torsion rubber” towards the start of this thread ).
Reviews of the Hobby 460 UFE caravan (and the data on Hobby’s website) indicate that payload for the 1350kg-chassis version is very tight and the VGB 13 M axle’s load is given (on the Knott website) as 1350kg - so the axle seemingly has no spare capacity to handle any overloading beyond a 460 UFE’s 1350kg maximum.
Irrespective of technical differences between a caravan’s or a motor vehicle’s suspension, the photo Jojo included in his first posting gives cause for concern over how much (or how little) damper travel remains, and this concern is compounded by Jojo’s reference to the axle’s trailing arms having little downwards angle.
Reviews of the Hobby 460 UFE caravan (and the data on Hobby’s website) indicate that payload for the 1350kg-chassis version is very tight and the VGB 13 M axle’s load is given (on the Knott website) as 1350kg - so the axle seemingly has no spare capacity to handle any overloading beyond a 460 UFE’s 1350kg maximum.
Irrespective of technical differences between a caravan’s or a motor vehicle’s suspension, the photo Jojo included in his first posting gives cause for concern over how much (or how little) damper travel remains, and this concern is compounded by Jojo’s reference to the axle’s trailing arms having little downwards angle.
Hobbyt600
BANNED
The VGB 13 M (1350kg) and VGB 15 M (1500kg) axles do not appear in general Knott catalogues (presumably because those axles are provided just to caravan manufacturers) but technical information for both axles is available on-line, as are drawings showing the differences between the axles.
I find it really hard to understand why concentrating on technical aspects of the axles might be considered important in Jojo’s case. Jojo’s photo of the Knott chassis-label refers to a VGB 13 M axle and that is what a standard 1350kg Hobby 460 UFE caravan should have. It’s not as if Jojo’s caravan were a 1500kg 460 UFE where a Knott VGB 15 M axle should have been fitted.
Obviously, without knowing what Jojo said in his (presumably e-mail) enquiry to the Hobby factory, I can’t guess how the factory might respond. Though, if my own experience as a buyer of a Hobby motorhome is typical, I would not anticipate a positive reply (or any reply for that matter!)
I’ve dealt with UK Hobby dealerships in the past and also found the UK Hobby importer helpful, but it was always very clear that the German factory expected a buyer of a new Hobby leisure-vehicle to contact the Hobby dealership that sold the vehicle first if there were problems and for that dealership to contact the Hobby factory subsequently if it proved necessary.
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