But Thetford and my caravan handbook specifically state that you should not travel with a full toilet holding tank. Don't know why, but presume there must be some possibility of leakage. Have you ever experienced any problem in this respect??
So guys, I went back to the drawing board...and here's my report! I checked my weight readings meticulously on level ground, using a piece of wood of the correct length on bathroom scales which I checked against my own weight..!
With the front locker cleared out completely (and I mean EVERYTHING), the reading was still over 100ks. I put the awning and poles and the nearly full gas bottle in the end washroom and I cd just about manage 85 - still strictly speaking 10 ks too heavy.
So next time out, I'm going to give that a whirl, although I'll obviously have to rethink the gas bottle bit as it must be secure.
As I read Forum comments, I can see I am another person who did not appreciate the conundrum on noseweights - the manufacturers are designing vans with heavier noseweights while the limits by many car makers cannot cope. It seems only the really big 4x4s have comparable limits - what happened before they were around??
Thanks everyone for your helpful advice.
With the front locker cleared out completely (and I mean EVERYTHING), the reading was still over 100ks. I put the awning and poles and the nearly full gas bottle in the end washroom and I cd just about manage 85 - still strictly speaking 10 ks too heavy.
So next time out, I'm going to give that a whirl, although I'll obviously have to rethink the gas bottle bit as it must be secure.
As I read Forum comments, I can see I am another person who did not appreciate the conundrum on noseweights - the manufacturers are designing vans with heavier noseweights while the limits by many car makers cannot cope. It seems only the really big 4x4s have comparable limits - what happened before they were around??
Thanks everyone for your helpful advice.
Colin, in the days before '4x4' were in general use vans were generally lighter. Noseweights were typicallly 7% of say 1000kg so 70 kg was average.
There were plenty of normal family cars e.g. Cortina estates that could cope with that but there were plenty of landrovers used as well.
The problem is that vans are getting heavier, and as Lutz has said manufacturers design their vans with apparent disregard to noseweights limits of normal cars.
There were plenty of normal family cars e.g. Cortina estates that could cope with that but there were plenty of landrovers used as well.
The problem is that vans are getting heavier, and as Lutz has said manufacturers design their vans with apparent disregard to noseweights limits of normal cars.
Well, that being the case, don't you think manufacturers (and the sources of widely-circulated statistics) should make it very clear what the noseweight of a caravan is with its front locker empty. Then we'd all know if our towcars were compatible. I'd like to bet that prospective buyers only consider a van's MIRO - they probably never find out the van's noseweight until they try it out for the first time, as was the case with me.
Colin; that's right! The dealer merely quoted the max permissable towing weight and compared that to my car and said "It's OK (just)" Well it isn't and wasn't; I had no idea that the noseweight was around 90kg with the front locker empty and yet I started to tow oblivious to this (potentially dangerous) situation?
John
John
I purchased our new Ace Jubilee Viceroy this summer (great van for a first timmer!). When I asked about noseweight, the dealer did'nt have a clue. I then rang the Swift Group and asked them. Their response was "don't know" !!!! Apparantly they cannot give me the noseweight, as they do not measure it!!
As it happens with very careful loading and several checks, I can get down to around 60-65kg (manufacture states 60)
JSD
As it happens with very careful loading and several checks, I can get down to around 60-65kg (manufacture states 60)
JSD
I totally agree. I have a Lunar Delta 620/4 and the dealer told me that 75kg should be fine on the noseweight-100KG was far too heavy. He also confirmed no problem in towing with my galaxy. Confused as I was working on the 7% rule I phoned Lunar-they had no idea what the noseweight should be-said anything over 50 was ok.
My Galaxy has a noseweight limit of 85KG and with the battery and motor mover I am struggling to achieve this.
Any advice on the legal position here would be appreciated and what anyone would recommend a a noseweight for the 620/4
My Galaxy has a noseweight limit of 85KG and with the battery and motor mover I am struggling to achieve this.
Any advice on the legal position here would be appreciated and what anyone would recommend a a noseweight for the 620/4
The answer that you got from Lunar ("no idea what the noseweight should be") was both incompetent and irresponsible. The noseweight limit for the caravan is just as important as that for the car/towbar. It is a legal requirement to stay below the lower of the 2 values. The caravan manufacturer MUST therefore specify the max. noseweight. The 7% formula is no legal requirement and, to my mind, misleading.
The noseweight limit for the caravan is usually determined by the chassis (normally AlKo or BPW) but it is still the caravan manufacturer, not the chassis manufacturer, who has to provide the max. noseweight figure to the consumer.
The noseweight limit for the caravan is usually determined by the chassis (normally AlKo or BPW) but it is still the caravan manufacturer, not the chassis manufacturer, who has to provide the max. noseweight figure to the consumer.
Just had a look at the Buccaneer home page. It lists the handbooks for various models back to 2003 and for the Elan it gives a max noseweight of 100kgs. Obviously, this should be with a reaonable amount of kit in the front locker. You stated you emptied the front inside locker as well, did you take everything completely out of the van?? Anything in front of the axle line will affect the noseweight, not just the items in the front locker. Think of the physics.
I am sorry but I also do have to question your numbers in your last but one post. You list a MIRO of 1280 kgs and a MTLM of 1350 kgs. There has to be an error there. You cannot have only 70kgs of payload. The handbook lists the Elan 15 as having a MTLM of 1385kgs, but does not show the MIRO, which is not very useful. A pity because it is otherwise a very comprehensive handbook.
I am sorry but I also do have to question your numbers in your last but one post. You list a MIRO of 1280 kgs and a MTLM of 1350 kgs. There has to be an error there. You cannot have only 70kgs of payload. The handbook lists the Elan 15 as having a MTLM of 1385kgs, but does not show the MIRO, which is not very useful. A pity because it is otherwise a very comprehensive handbook.
I think you will find that the 100kg noseweight maxium is the rating of the hitch. I suspect that there are vans leaving the factory which exceed that or at least do not allow the gas bottles, battery and spare wheel to be located in the provision made for them without exceeding it.
As Lutz has said it is unbelievable that in the day and age of CAD that nosewights are a lottery.
Thank you Scotch Lad for your advice. My Elan is year 2000 and to be precise the MIRO is 1287, and MTPLM is 1600 (handbook figures). However, the point I was trying to convey was that at the time of testing/weighing the caravan was more or less empty, and I quoted a loaded weight of 1350 (I did not say, nor mean, MTPLM) to take account of the few sundries on board.
Fact is that even in this situation (with the front locker empty and hardly anything in front of the axle) I could not, and still cannot get, the noseweight down to less than 100kgs without counterbalancing behind the axle.
The maximum noseweight limit for the van, according to the handbook, is 100kgs, but anyone might be forgiven for thinking this was a figure that should not be exceeded - in fact, in my experience it cannot be achieved!
All of this, of course, is extremely bad news for me because as a beginner I happily bought a caravan well within the general 85% weight limit only to find that the noseweight is always going to be too heavy for my car's 75kg limit, unless I counterbalance. The point of my posting was to ask how best to handle the situation.
The responses have led me to the view that mean noseweight figures of vans shd be just as widely quoted as MIRO and MTMPL figures...
The limit for the hitch is not necessarily the same as for the drawbar of the caravan. That's why it's important to use the caravan manufacturer's figure not that of the coupling.
Because the noseweight limit is determined by:
a) the car
b) the towbar
c) the coupling
d) the drawbar
and all of the above may be supplied by different manufacturers, only the consumer can determine the maximum for his/her particular outfit. Neither the car manufacturer nor the caravan manufacturer can do this, although, as you say, the car and/or towbar limit will normally be the decisive figure for an average setup. If this cannot be achieved by any other means than counterbalancing behind the axle of the caravan, so be it.
I am not so much concerned about "limits" as actual weights. It must be possible for a manufacturer to state a caravan model's noseweight, ex-factory with no extras ahead of the axle. This is a figure that most potential buyers, particularly beginners, need in order to determine whether an outfit/combination is likely to be compatible in this respect.
The noseweight of the caravan in the 'as delivered' condition is really rather irrelevant as it is always worthwhile to make full use of the maximum limit when towing. This would be achieved by suitable counterbalancing either ahead of the axle or, in unfavourable cases, behind the rear axle.
Lutz,
I accept your point about the usefulness/or otherwise of an empty nose weight but would have to state that the manufacturer should be able to confirm that when the van is loaded correctly his stated maximum nose weight will not be exceeded. If a front locker has space for 2 standard size gas cylinders and/or spare wheel then I would have assumed that these can be fitted safely, or surely the 'Fit for Purpose' law could be invoked. Obviously filling the locker with other extra 'junk' is then the owner's responsibility.
My first post!
I have just converted from VW Camper to 'van and have a Swift Archway Barnwell '96 I would be very interested in the spare wheel carrier!
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