Hybrid Cars - Towing Weight - Batteries

[Lutz]

As pointed out the term "kerb weight" does not exist in legislation. Makes you wonder how an insurance company can have a clause stating that insurance is void if you exceed 95% of the kerb weight of the towing vehicle? Surely that would be an Unfair Clause in the event of a claim as the kerbweight could vary quite a bit for the same model of towing vehicle?

OK, in legislation it's called "kerbside weight", but it should be fairly obvious that what is meant is the same as "kerbweight".
Fact is, however, that kerbside weight, or kerbweight, is not documented anywhere so where insurance companies get their information from is a mystery to me. Kerbweight can even change after the vehicle has left the factory through the addition of permanent features, like a towbar, for example. There is nothing in the legal definition of "kerbside weight" that says it's an ex-works weight, so one must assume that it refers to actual weight.

 

[Buckman]

OK, in legislation it's called "kerbside weight", but it should be fairly obvious that what is meant is the same as "kerbweight".
Fact is, however, that kerbside weight, or kerbweight, is not documented anywhere so where insurance companies get their information from is a mystery to me. Kerbweight can even change after the vehicle has left the factory through the addition of permanent features, like a towbar, for example. There is nothing in the legal definition of "kerbside weight" that says it's an ex-works weight, so one must assume that it refers to actual weight.

Thanks and it does seem that the gov.uk websites are badly worded. Here is another that is poorly worded.
Have a look at section 5 and also 7.5 as could be misleading. Section 5 doesn't clarify actual overall length and 7.5 regards unladen same as kerb weight.

 

[Lutz]

Thanks and it does seem that the gov.uk websites are badly worded. Here is another that is poorly worded.
Have a look at section 5 and also 7.5 as could be misleading. Section 5 doesn't clarify actual overall length and 7.5 regards unladen same as kerb weight.

Not only that, but under 7.3 it says "To help find the maximum weight of trailer that can be towed, you could subtract the GVW of the towing vehicle from the GCW. " That's not true, either. If you subtract the GVW of the towing vehicle from the GCW you get the maximum allowable axle load of the trailer, not its total weight. Also, if the total weight of the towing vehicle is less than its GVW, the trailer could be even heavier so long as the GCW is not exceeded (unless the manufacturer has put a further restriction on the towable mass).

 

[ProfJohnL]

The web site tells us:-

"5. Gross weight of towing vehicle and size of trailer
A towing vehicle with GVW of 3500kg or lower is restricted as to the size of trailer it may tow. The trailer can be a maximum of 7m long by 2.55m wide. A heavier vehicle can tow a trailer of maximum 12m long by 2.55m wide. Exceptionally, where the trailer is specially designed to carry long loads (eg one or more boats, gliders), the 7m limit does not apply."

This say's the maximum length "maximum of 7m" but that does not apply for special long loads.

The only aspect of this which is less than adequately explained is how the 7m refers to the trailer body and excludes the A frame, but that is defined in the legislation relating to the construction and dimensions of trailers.

That seems quite logical.

 

[Buckman]

The web site tells us:-

"5. Gross weight of towing vehicle and size of trailer
A towing vehicle with GVW of 3500kg or lower is restricted as to the size of trailer it may tow. The trailer can be a maximum of 7m long by 2.55m wide. A heavier vehicle can tow a trailer of maximum 12m long by 2.55m wide. Exceptionally, where the trailer is specially designed to carry long loads (eg one or more boats, gliders), the 7m limit does not apply."

This say's the maximum length "maximum of 7m" but that does not apply for special long loads.

The only aspect of this which is less than adequately explained is how the 7m refers to the trailer body and excludes the A frame, but that is defined in the legislation relating to the construction and dimensions of trailers.

That seems quite logical.

Our caravan is 8.16m in length but is legal. The above does no tinclude shipping length is not correct and should define what is regarded as the length of a trailer.

 

[otherclive]

Our caravan is 8.16m in length but is legal. The above does no tinclude shipping length is not correct and should define what is regarded as the length of a trailer.

But the C&U Regulations do define it, although it would be good to either include in the above either specifically or by a reference.

 

[Paullus1959]

I might be wrong but you may be mixing up what the car can legally tow and what it can physically tow.
I looked at a Kia Sportage 2.0 turbo diesel with its advertised towing capacity of 2200kg in manual form and 2000kg for the automatic. Working on the 2200kg figure I worked out that the Sportage would be towing my caravan at around 72% but when I worked it out properly using the mass in running order or kerbweight I was actually closer to a 90% ratio.
The towing capacity figure quoted by Kia actually related to the vehicles ability to pull 2200kg up a 1 in 12 gradient from standstill and it certainly could not legally tow 2200kg.
So, it might actually be the drivetrain of your Peugeot which is the limiting factor and I blame car manufacturers for giving out confusing information.

 

[RogerL]

I might be wrong but you may be mixing up what the car can legally tow and what it can physically tow.
I looked at a Kia Sportage 2.0 turbo diesel with its advertised towing capacity of 2200kg in manual form and 2000kg for the automatic. Working on the 2200kg figure I worked out that the Sportage would be towing my caravan at around 72% but when I worked it out properly using the mass in running order or kerbweight I was actually closer to a 90% ratio.
The towing capacity figure quoted by Kia actually related to the vehicles ability to pull 2200kg up a 1 in 12 gradient from standstill and it certainly could not legally tow 2200kg.
So, it might actually be the drivetrain of your Peugeot which is the limiting factor and I blame car manufacturers for giving out confusing information.

If Kia quote 2200 kg towing limit then it's legal to tow that - it may exceed the 100% guideline but there's no such legal limit.

 

[otherclive]

I might be wrong but you may be mixing up what the car can legally tow and what it can physically tow.
I looked at a Kia Sportage 2.0 turbo diesel with its advertised towing capacity of 2200kg in manual form and 2000kg for the automatic. Working on the 2200kg figure I worked out that the Sportage would be towing my caravan at around 72% but when I worked it out properly using the mass in running order or kerbweight I was actually closer to a 90% ratio.
The towing capacity figure quoted by Kia actually related to the vehicles ability to pull 2200kg up a 1 in 12 gradient from standstill and it certainly could not legally tow 2200kg.
So, it might actually be the drivetrain of your Peugeot which is the limiting factor and I blame car manufacturers for giving out confusing information.

Bit puzzled? Was the advertised 2200kg towing capability stated in the vehicles handbook/ V5/ weight plate In which case it would be legally able to tow 2200 kg. I’ve had cars with specified tow weights of 3000 kg, and 3500 kg. Both well above kerbweight and legal to tow those higher weights. Although I’m not advocating doing any such a thing with a caravan though.

 

[Paullus1959]

If Kia quote 2200 kg towing limit then it's legal to tow that - it may exceed the 100% guideline but there's no such legal limit.

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. I probably put too much faith in car and caravan matching sites such as towcarinfo. Regardless of the law I'm happy to abide with 85% guide and definitely wouldn't want to tow a trailer that weighed more than my car. Many do and that's fine.
Getting back to the OP, the point I'm making is that despite its engine power and kerbweight the Peugeot 3008 may not be capable of towing their caravan due to its hybrid drivetrain.

 

[otherclive]

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. However I wouldn't want to tow a trailer that weighed more than my car. Many do and that's fine.
On the other hand, I think the OP may have a vehicle that, despite its engine power and kerbweight cannot physically tow his caravan without damaging its drivetrain.

“On the other hand, I think the OP may have a vehicle that, despite its engine power and kerbweight cannot physically tow his caravan without damaging its drivetrain.”

It’s not that unusual to have a towing limit that is below one that would be expected given the power and weight of the considered vehicle.

 

[RogerL]

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. I probably put too much faith in car and caravan matching sites such as towcarinfo. Regardless of the law I'm happy to abide with 85% guide and definitely wouldn't want to tow a trailer that weighed more than my car. Many do and that's fine.

I don't disagree with you - my present car can legally tow 3500 kg which gives a calculated towing ratio of 154% but I'm very comfortable just towing 1500 kg (66%)

 

[otherclive]

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. I probably put too much faith in car and caravan matching sites such as towcarinfo. Regardless of the law I'm happy to abide with 85% guide and definitely wouldn't want to tow a trailer that weighed more than my car. Many do and that's fine.
Getting back to the OP, the point I'm making is that despite its engine power and kerbweight the Peugeot 3008 may not be capable of towing their caravan due to its hybrid drivetrain.

I’ve always found Towcar.info to be pretty accurate, but you do have to be accurate in the data that you input for both car and caravan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

So, it might actually be the drivetrain of your Peugeot which is the limiting factor and I blame car manufacturers for giving out confusing information.

Why is it confusing?

The car manufacture has done the necessary work to establish the cars towing limit.

The 85% is only a guide line for caravanners, its not directive for car manufacturers. There are several cars whose stated towed weight limit is less than 85% kerbweight, but many others that exceed it.

The towed weight limit for each model has to be established by completing several tests, its not just calculated as a certain percentage of its weight.

 

[Tobes]

Also, absolutely no reason a hybrid drive train might cause a problem. My V60 PHEV pulled like a train. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV seems to make a good tow car too.

 

[Paullus1959]

Can someone explain why the Gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained states that the Car Weight on a hybrid does not include the weight of the batteries? We have just bought a Peugeot 3008 300bhp which has a Kerb Weight of 1840kg. Using 85% one gets 1564kg. Yet the Maximum Tow Weight is listed as 1250kg which implies a kerb weight of 1470.

We are going to have to change our caravan to a smaller one (this was planned but ...) . I would just like to understand "Why". I have not been able to find this explained anywhere.

Just a polite reminder that this was the original question.
The OP is seeking an explanation to the dilemma they find themselves in. I'm sure if had been made clear to them at the time of purchase what exactly the towing capacity of their Peugeot 3008 was, they would have looked elsewhere.
I fully understand that vehicle manufacturers plan exactly what a car is designed to do and its limitations.
Other hybrids such as the V60 PHEV and Mitsubishi as mentioned, undoubtedly have a high towing capacity but it appears the the 3008 doesn't, despite its weight and engine power.

 

[Buckman]

Just a polite reminder that this was the original question.
The OP is seeking an explanation to the dilemma they find themselves in. I'm sure if had been made clear to them at the time of purchase what exactly the towing capacity of their Peugeot 3008 was, they would have looked elsewhere.
I fully understand that vehicle manufacturers plan exactly what a car is designed to do and its limitations.
Other hybrids such as the V60 PHEV and Mitsubishi as mentioned, undoubtedly have a high towing capacity but it appears the the 3008 doesn't, despite its weight and engine power.

The 3008 petrol version has always had a lower towing weight than its kerb weight.

 

[Lutz]

Just a polite reminder that this was the original question.
The OP is seeking an explanation to the dilemma they find themselves in. I'm sure if had been made clear to them at the time of purchase what exactly the towing capacity of their Peugeot 3008 was, they would have looked elsewhere.
I fully understand that vehicle manufacturers plan exactly what a car is designed to do and its limitations.
Other hybrids such as the V60 PHEV and Mitsubishi as mentioned, undoubtedly have a high towing capacity but it appears the the 3008 doesn't, despite its weight and engine power.

It's not that difficult to establish the towing capacity before purchasing a car. In the case in question the OP worked on the basis of 85% of the kerbweight being the towing capacity limit. That is rarely actually the case. Usually it's a lot more than 85%, but there are exceptions and the 3008 seems to be one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just a polite reminder that this was the original question.
The OP is seeking an explanation to the dilemma they find themselves in. I'm sure if had been made clear to them at the time of purchase what exactly the towing capacity of their Peugeot 3008 was, they would have looked elsewhere.
I fully understand that vehicle manufacturers plan exactly what a car is designed to do and its limitations.
Other hybrids such as the V60 PHEV and Mitsubishi as mentioned, undoubtedly have a high towing capacity but it appears the the 3008 doesn't, despite its weight and engine power.

I think there have already been several posts that give an indication as to why there is no fixed relationship between vehicle weight and teh permitted towed weight, and how the 85% figure is not any part of a mandatory requirment for car producers to follow.

The features mentioned in the OP seems to assume the criteria mentioned should have a defined relationship when in fact there is no prescribed relationship, and that's why the OP is never going to get a prescriptive answer.

 

[RogerL]

Just a polite reminder that this was the original question.
The OP is seeking an explanation to the dilemma they find themselves in. I'm sure if had been made clear to them at the time of purchase what exactly the towing capacity of their Peugeot 3008 was, they would have looked elsewhere.
I fully understand that vehicle manufacturers plan exactly what a car is designed to do and its limitations.
Other hybrids such as the V60 PHEV and Mitsubishi as mentioned, undoubtedly have a high towing capacity but it appears the the 3008 doesn't, despite its weight and engine power.

The manufacturer's published Maximum Towing Weight isn't hard to find, indeed easier for many cars than the kerbweight.

No-should assume that kerbweight x 85% is actually permitted for any car - some have higher towing limits, some have lower.

 

[Paullus1959]

The features mentioned in the OP seems to assume the criteria mentioned should have a defined relationship when in fact there is no prescribed relationship, and that's why the OP is never going to get a prescriptive answer.

So, that's it then finally. Unfortunately Jevershed, you are not going to get a prescriptive answer here.
In simple layman's terms, Peugeot, for reasons only known to them, have deemed that a 3008 hybrid cannot tow heavy loads, unlike certain other hybrid vehicles.
This is no consolation in your circumstances, but it is an answer of sorts to your original question.
To find out exactly why Peugeot have come to this conclusion is best taken up with Peugeot research and development themselves.
Good luck

 

[Jcloughie]

Can someone explain why the Gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained states that the Car Weight on a hybrid does not include the weight of the batteries? We have just bought a Peugeot 3008 300bhp which has a Kerb Weight of 1840kg. Using 85% one gets 1564kg. Yet the Maximum Tow Weight is listed as 1250kg which implies a kerb weight of 1470.

We are going to have to change our caravan to a smaller one (this was planned but ...) . I would just like to understand "Why". I have not been able to find this explained anywhere.

Two points in my opinion.

First. I don’t think that the link you provided actually says what you say. (Although it is poorly worded).

***************
Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:

• fuel
• batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

****************
I say that simply because the batteries ARE clearly normally used when the car is on the road. Therefore they will be included in the unladen weight.


Second. Manufacturers make an engineering decision on the maximum weight any vehicle can cope with. This has nothing whatsoever to do with maximum loads suggested by other organisations. But nevertheless should not be exceeded.


John

 

[otherclive]

So, that's it then finally. Unfortunately Jevershed, you are not going to get a prescriptive answer here.
In simple layman's terms, Peugeot, for reasons only known to them, have deemed that a 3008 hybrid cannot tow heavy loads, unlike certain other hybrid vehicles.
This is no consolation in your circumstances, but it is an answer of sorts to your original question.
To find out exactly why Peugeot have come to this conclusion is best taken up with Peugeot research and development themselves.
Good luck

Even before hybrids some cars could not tow particularly good weights. If you read some magazines you will see that a test review only loads it to less than 85 % of kerbweight because of the makers limit being lower. Examples Citroen C5, Nissan X trail, Honda CRV and Kia Sportage being some. There were differences between autos and petrols depending on the vehicle being considered. Some could tow a good weigh, others a much reduced weight.
So it’s fatuous blaming Peugeot and it’s hybrid powertrain. Could it be a case of “buyer beware “ and not the Peugeot powertrain.

 

[Lutz]

I say that simply because the batteries ARE clearly normally used when the car is on the road. Therefore they will be included in the unladen weight.

Whether batteries are included in unladen weight or not is irrelevant because unladen weight is not the issue here. If anything it's kerbweight that matters and that does include batteries.

Having said that, it's not only hybrid cars that sometimes suffer from abnormally low towload limits. Perhaps some may recall the first generation Zafira 2.0 diesel which had a max. permissible towload of only around 80% of its kerbweight. Strangely, the 2.2 diesel version of the same car had quite a respectable towload limit.

 

[RogerL]

Whether batteries are included in unladen weight or not is irrelevant because unladen weight is not the issue here. It's kerbweight that matters and that does include batteries.

Having said that, it's not only hybrid cars that sometimes suffer from abnormally low towload limits. Perhaps some may recall the first generation Zafira 2.0 diesel which had a max. permissible towload of only around 80% of its kerbweight. Strangely, the 2.2 diesel version of the same car had quite a respectable towload limit.

And some potentially good towcars have a zero towing limit - some versions of Mondeo ST and some versions of BMW M-series.