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Hydrogen powered SUV
- Thread starter Dustydog
- Start date
Hyundai have had Hydrogen SUV in Europe for several years, a Tucson variant.
WHERE CAN YOU BUY HYDROGEN FOR YOUR FUEL CELL EV ?
According to UK H2 Mobility, there are currently 14 hydrogen stations in the UK for fuel cell powered electrically propelled vehicles. Five of these are located within the M25, with others in the Southeast and Midlands. There are only two hydrogen refuelling points in Wales, one in the north of England, two in Scotland and none in Northern Ireland for cars.
WHERE CAN YOU BUY HYDROGEN FOR YOUR FUEL CELL EV ?
According to UK H2 Mobility, there are currently 14 hydrogen stations in the UK for fuel cell powered electrically propelled vehicles. Five of these are located within the M25, with others in the Southeast and Midlands. There are only two hydrogen refuelling points in Wales, one in the north of England, two in Scotland and none in Northern Ireland for cars.
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Not very good! Where’s the Greenies🤪
As things stand at the moment here in the UK and most of the world Hydrogen powered private transport is impractical becasue the infrastructure is not there to keep drivers fueled. Of course that might change.
Whilst H2 is without doubt one of the most abundant elements in the universe jt has a major problem, it's far too friendly and suffers separation anxiety. Basically there are no natural sources of pure hydrogen. In its natural state its always bound to other atoms creating other materials. Before we can use H2 as fuel, we have to divorce it from whatever its bound to, and that takes energy.
There is always going to be a production cost for both the plant needed to do the stripping, and the energy needed to run the plant. That raises the question of where does that energy come from, in an ideal situation it would be from renewables, but until we have more renewable capacity there is every chance that a proportion of the energy will come from fossil fuels or nuclear.
The energy expenditure to release the H2 from whatever its married to presently is greater than the amount of energy the H2 contains. There is considerable work being undertaken to improve this energy imbalance, but some very well educated people have stated they cannot see the balance changing in H2's favour so assuming they are correct H2 will always be an energy inefficient.
Various studies have concluded that unless there is an H2 release breakthrough both the cost and the efficiency comparison between BEV and hydrogen will continue to be in favour of BEV.
There are also other immutable concerns with hydrogen. As most GCSE school children can tell you not only is H2 the most abundant element in the universe it is also lightest element having a single electron. Its small nature means it can find its way through the very smallest of seal imperfections, and presently the gas producing industries estimate that it loses about 10% of all H2 it produces through impossibly small leaks.
Based on what we presently know, and on the predictable difficulties of setting up an adequate H2 supply infrastructure, H2 will never be biggest source of power for the private car. It may find favour in particular circumstances for things like fleet operators who run well defined journeys or in locations where the electric grid is simply not available. We have seen JCB is working on an H2 system for their earthmoving equipment, becasue their equipment is often needed to install the electric grid.
Whilst H2 is without doubt one of the most abundant elements in the universe jt has a major problem, it's far too friendly and suffers separation anxiety. Basically there are no natural sources of pure hydrogen. In its natural state its always bound to other atoms creating other materials. Before we can use H2 as fuel, we have to divorce it from whatever its bound to, and that takes energy.
There is always going to be a production cost for both the plant needed to do the stripping, and the energy needed to run the plant. That raises the question of where does that energy come from, in an ideal situation it would be from renewables, but until we have more renewable capacity there is every chance that a proportion of the energy will come from fossil fuels or nuclear.
The energy expenditure to release the H2 from whatever its married to presently is greater than the amount of energy the H2 contains. There is considerable work being undertaken to improve this energy imbalance, but some very well educated people have stated they cannot see the balance changing in H2's favour so assuming they are correct H2 will always be an energy inefficient.
Various studies have concluded that unless there is an H2 release breakthrough both the cost and the efficiency comparison between BEV and hydrogen will continue to be in favour of BEV.
There are also other immutable concerns with hydrogen. As most GCSE school children can tell you not only is H2 the most abundant element in the universe it is also lightest element having a single electron. Its small nature means it can find its way through the very smallest of seal imperfections, and presently the gas producing industries estimate that it loses about 10% of all H2 it produces through impossibly small leaks.
Based on what we presently know, and on the predictable difficulties of setting up an adequate H2 supply infrastructure, H2 will never be biggest source of power for the private car. It may find favour in particular circumstances for things like fleet operators who run well defined journeys or in locations where the electric grid is simply not available. We have seen JCB is working on an H2 system for their earthmoving equipment, becasue their equipment is often needed to install the electric grid.
It somehow reminds me of when I came to the UK in 1985 with a car fitted with catalytic converter before these were being sold in the UK and before lead free petrol was available there. I made arrangements to fill up at the Jaguar plant in Coventry because I knew that Jaguar built cars for the US market and these already needed lead free fuel. In addition, Just to be on the safe side I had two 20 litre jerry cans of fuel in the back of the car (probably quite illegal on the Channel ferry)
Stations | UK H2Mobility
Press Release 2022: Another record number of newly opened hydrogen refuelling stations in 2021 - H2Stations.org
Munich. In 2021, 142 hydrogen refuelling stations went into operation worldwide, again more than ever before. 37 new hydrogen stations were opened in Europe, 89 in Asia, and 13 in North America. This is the result of the 14th annual assessment of H2stations.org, an information service of...
www.h2stations.org
Not necessarily, because no car manufacturer would be naive enough to think that any particular model of car is going to suddenly become the universally accepted as the only car to buy. (perhaps British Leyland did....) which is why they usually make a wider range of vehicles to choose from.
In the case of Hyundai and their cousin company Kia, they have already made some very bold BEV cars and of course we must also recognise that in some car markets electrification hasn't been legislated for yet, so there are still plenty of ICE products still being sold across the world. The likes of Toyota and Hyundai & Kia (and some other world wide manufacturers are big enough to to be able to sustain some niche developments, rather than putting all their eggs in one basket.
Even VW who have said they are going fully electric will be spending some development money looking at potential alternatives including H2, as there is a need to aware of such things and to have some practical knowledge in teh wings just in case there is a major (as yet unforeseen) breakthrough that suddenly make H2 a viable alternative to BEVs
If such a breakthrough were to occur that radically reduced the cost of extracting transporting and distributing pure H2, It's most likely places with an abundance of renewable energy to crack the H2 out of whatever source that might begin to increase H2 usage or to sell it to other areas. but the longer it takes for such an event, the likelihood of H2 emerging as the main fuel for motor transport diminishes.
For the foreseeable future BEV's are the most likely winners for personal transport . But there will always be some cases where BEVs are impractical and perhaps in those situations H2 might be one solution.
No, it was powered by diesel. This 85 year old accident, it seems, is always going to plague hydrogen as a power source. 🙄
I believe that hydrogen fuel cells have the capability to be a good mass transport option but it relies on the infrastructure being put in place and on hydrogen being produced sustainably. The thing about BEVs is that electricity is already everywhere and relatively easy to install.
The Hindenburg was designed to use Helium, but because of US sanctions on helium supply the operators had no option but to use hydrogen, which then lead to the unfortunate outcome.
I doubt it as it is the way forward for heavy machinery. Using diesel is costing my son a small fortune each day however to replace the heavy machinery will cost an arm and a leg plus some. They operate in a rural area that suffers from constant load shedding so electric is out whether a car or equipment.
Much of the discussion re hydrogen and any difficulties in using it arises from a Eurocentric approach. There will be many areas of the world where there will be no option other than to use ICE engines. VW have said they will continue to produce ICE but they won’t be imported into Europe. Toyota have recently announced a big ICE plant for the USA. Companies are working not only on hydrogen but on synthetic fuels. So it is quite likely that hydrogen will become more readily available but whether that will be in Europe remains to be seen.
Trucks | Cummins Inc.
In a low CO2 world, (i.e. one where hydrogen is produced from electricity sourced from renewables), hydrogen trades efficiency and cost for convenience.
I.e. if you have some electrical energy, and you want to make it more portable (in a tank rather than a battery), you can convert it to hydrogen at the cost of efficiency (you get far less energy out at the end than you started with) and for more money (it costs a lot more in both source energy and equipment needed).
So far, for passenger cars, the tradeoff of hydrogen over direct battery storage of electricity have made it very niche and effectively non-viable.
It definitely has uses elsewhere, and JCB are trialing their hydrogen ICE engine to allow zero carbon (though not zero emissions) plant equipment to be manufactured at the same cost as diesel plant equipment.
I.e. if you have some electrical energy, and you want to make it more portable (in a tank rather than a battery), you can convert it to hydrogen at the cost of efficiency (you get far less energy out at the end than you started with) and for more money (it costs a lot more in both source energy and equipment needed).
So far, for passenger cars, the tradeoff of hydrogen over direct battery storage of electricity have made it very niche and effectively non-viable.
It definitely has uses elsewhere, and JCB are trialing their hydrogen ICE engine to allow zero carbon (though not zero emissions) plant equipment to be manufactured at the same cost as diesel plant equipment.
I broadly agree with most of the details in your comment but we diverge about the future availability of hydrogen. Hydrogen may seem like an ideal fuel, because it has the greatest energy density, and in ideal conditions it produces useful heat with the only byproduct of pure water, but to extract pure Hydrogen and to use it optimonaly are both rather difficult, and expensive.
When you look at the demographics, the wealthy countries who might be able to fund the development of renewables and hydrogen powered transport, are tending to go down the BEV route, and les wealthy countries who could best use hydrogen don't have the resources to develop H2 infrastructure so are more likely to go with synthetics or stick with petrochemicals.
ON a couple of occasions when Hydrogen vehicles have been discussed I think it was Otherclive who has mentioned alternative means of storing Hydrogen.
I wonder if this is a similar process
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0fnEsz4Ks0
I wonder if this is a similar process
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