i need opinion of experienced towers

[terry_374356161]

i recently posted in another thread,'towcar citroen c5 2008' in the towcar section. i now realise that i posted in the wrong section, guaranteed to be missed by the people i am trying to reach.

i am desparate for knowledgable opinion in the matter of towing with the 1.6td c5 citroen as described in that post.

please please read it and let me know what you think.

thank you. and sorry mods if this is a double post against the rules, if so please delete.

terry

 

[MargaretW.]

Terry,

If you belong to one of the clubs, telephone the Technical Departments and see what can be towed, i.e. max weights.

Margaret W.

 

[RogerL]

All the information is on Citroen's website, and presumably in their brochures.

Depending on model, the C5 kerbweights vary from 1503kg to 1766kg. Towing limits vary from 1370kg to 1820kg. Maximum noseweights vary from 55kg to 73kg.

 

[RogerL]

The 1.6TD has the lower of each of those figures above.

 

[RogerL]

Oh, I wish this forum had an edit button.

The 55kg maximum noseweight is very low.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi terry

just a thought the C5 is an exellent tow car however the 1.6diesel engine turbo-ed or not is quite a small engine to lug round so much weight.

consider this the C5 is not a small weighing in at 1503kg in the first place, then add an extra 1370kg on top of that and it must be at the top end of the engines ability I would not want to tow with it especialy touring.

and what about the clutch I can smell the burning from here, much better with the 2.2 I think

colin

 

[Steve L]

Hi Terry.

The 1.6 Citreon C5 turbo diesel has a tow limit of 1370 Kgs. I would not be too worried about towing to the max tow capacity myself, as I do that now with my 1998 Laguna estate. So long as you respect that your outfit will be slow on hills then you'll be fine.

I can climb a 1 in 8 hill quite comfortably in third gear at about 40 miles an hour with our 20ft twin axle van on the back. Our car is the 8 valve 2 Litre petrol version which probably has less torque than your C5 anyway.

As for clutch smells. Again it's down to driver skills. So long as you don't ride the clutch too much then you won't get clutch slip (the burning smell). For example if I need to reverse up hill, I make a decisive action to reverse which allows me to have my foot off the clutch pedal and therfore the clutch fully engaged on the flywheel with no slipping at all. This does not mean I reverse at 20 miles an hour, I can do 4 miles an hour apporximately (walking pace) up a 1 in 10 gradient without stalling.

Towing with a smaller engine'd car just takes a little more thinking about and planning your actions accordingly.

Steve L.

 

[KeithJ]

Hi Terry

Citroen/Peugeot 's 1.6 HDI diesel is one of the best, most modern diesel engines in the world today. Introduced in 2004, it superceded their 2 litre HDI diesel, previously used in the Peugeot 406 & 307 + Citroen Zantia and many others, and produces the same Brake Horse Power and Torque as the old 2 Litre. This is achieved by improvements in technology, including the use of 16 valves. The 1.6 is now used by Fords and the BMW Mini, amongst others, so this speaks for how good it is.

However it is still a small engine for a C5 used for towing. It depends how you plan to use it - whilst it will perform adequately, as described by Steve in Leo, it would not be ideal for touring in mountanous regions towing a heavy van. For the latter, the modern 2 litre version (similar technology)- a superb engine - would be more suitable.

I have experience of the 1.6 in a Peugeot 307SW towing a small van (under 1000kg) which completed a tour of Italy very competantly.

Hope this is of some help

Keith

 

[KeithJ]

Hi Terry

I have just read your other post! Should have read it first before writing the above, shouldn't I???!!!

Therefore I didn't realise the caravan in question was a Senator.

Whilst there are many who tow Senators with C5s, and will no doubt say the match is OK, I do think it would be expecting too much of the 1.6 (excellent engine that it is). Also, I think you have demonstrated with the figures that this combination might be illegal anyway!!

Keith

 

[rosies]

Surely this question would be better answered in TOWCARS catagory .

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

thanks keithj that was the point I was trying to make terry asked for the opinion of experienced towers presumedly because the owner of the said unit is not.

I have allways towed with smaller engined cars as that is my choice, the balance of power to weight ratio is finite big engine, small car =more spare power but lower tow weight

big car small engine =less spare power for towing as the weight of the car is greater even if the heavier car techically could tow a heavier weight it would not have the power to do it properly. moving off on a hill would need very good clutch control to get the unit moving in inexperienced hands that is cluch slip on a grand scale hence my reference to the smell of burning clutch.

with all due respect to rogerL who has a vast knowlege of engineering to which we all call on from time to time, the 2ltr 16valve renault petrol engine that he speaks of is a brute of a unit and would probably tow a brick bungalow if it was mounted on wheels. the same laguna est I suggest would not be quite so good with say a 1.5cdi diesel engine in it.

as we all know when touring in unknown territory no one knows what is around the next corner,the next hill you come across might be a 1 in 5 (20%)with no opportunity to get a run at it

I suggest this unit would be in trouble very quickly with no alternate route available.

colin

 

[colin-yorkshire]

my profound apoligies to all, shot myself in the foot. why has this forum not got an edit button.

my remarks regarding the laguna were for steve and not roger both of whom I have the geatest respect for but I did not read through my post before submitting.

I will now go and stand in a corner for 10 mins and write 200 lines (I MUST READ MY POST BEFORE SUBMITTING) sorry

colin

 

[terry_374356161]

you're great guys, thanks for your replies. i have written to the technical information officer at the camping and caravan club who tells me that the data on the towsafe site referred to by the dealers and compiled by hpi is incorrect and has been able to independently verify the info i got from citroen uk website, confirmed by citroen technical department head office and is freely avaiable detailed and, if asked, given by knowledgable staff at citroen dealers.

i am awaiting a reply from the email i sent yesterday to citroen and will have to wait for further comment from the tech info officer of the c@camping club as he is attending the towcar of the year awards.

it will be interesting to see how the c5 without hydrualic suspension fares as the sprung versions may not be up to the job. i say this as now the noseweight for the current new model 1.6td is only 55kgs.and seeing how the gross train weight for this car is only 2994kgs and the maximum braked trailer weight is only 1370, the previous model was 1300kgs!, choosing the right c5 for the job must entail careful research and judgment.

the 85% rule is only the starting point of working out if a car is suitable as other factors such as low braked trailer weight may superceed this if too low.

terry

 

[terry_374356161]

*http://www.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/BBA18316-6B75-4CC2-BCCD-64640789465F/40391/C5_berline_caracteristiques_techniques_27102004_en.pdf

and

*http://www.citroen.co.uk/new-cars/citroen-c5-saloon/in-more-detail/technical-specifications/

click on weights.

copy and paste these links to see

it will be interesting to hear your thoughts guys.

terry

 

[RogerL]

The Citroen C5 1.6TD has a kerbweight of 1503kg, giving an 85% of 1278kg. It's towing limit is 1370kg which is 91% of kerbweight. It's maximum noseweight is 55kg which is 4% of the 1370kg towing limit.

110bhp and 177lb ft aren't a lot to haul a 3410kg outfit around.

On the flat it'll cope but any hills will severely hamper proress.

 

[terry_374356161]

To true rogerl

His is the old model with 1300kgs maximum braked trailer weight which does not bode well when towing 1495kgs, especially when the mro of the caravan is 1295kgs.

That leaves two and a half bags of sugar or similar before the otherwise empty caravan is overloaded.

Can't wait to see what Citroen have to say.

terry

 

[terry_374356161]

well, i got that wrong!

the mro is 1259 not 1295.

so 41kgs max load before it is overloaded. still not good but some scope to get the noseweight right even if otherwise towing empty.

hopelessly impossible to load with even a few items without a weighbridge to hand methinks, the margin is too low.

terry

 

[RogerL]

That caravan is illegally too heavy - we can all debate 85% or 100%, they're just guidelines but the car makers towing limit is absolute - insurers could refuse to pay out in the case of a claim.

Adding two gas cylinders and a battery to an ex-works will add around 43kg to the MIRO, taking it over the limit - apart from collection/delivery no-one tows a caravan that empty..

 

[terry_374356161]

RogerL

you're excactly right.

he rang me on the day he wanted to go look at the c5 because i'm on the internet to ask about the suitability of the c5. at that moment i only found out about the 2.2td and said that it sounded as if it would do the job well. subsequently citroen rang me back to say that the gross train weight for that model is 3816kgs.

when i rang back a few days later with all the other information i had gathered, together with the confirmation from citroen uk technical department, he then told me that he had bought the 1.6td. it turns out that he got the old model with 1300kgs gtw.

terry

 

[terry_374356161]

no edit button.

1300kgs maximum braked trailer weight, i should have said.

terry

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi terry

glad you got an answer even if it is not yet complete, the fact is towing laws are very strict and prescise a formula can easily be worked out once all the relevent details are known.

and in this case the van is just too heavy for the tow car I think that has been accecpted and could be an expensive mistake.

as I said in my previous post I by choice tend to tow with smaller cars and inevetivly lighter vans because of this getting the right balance ie:- power to weight ratio can be a bit of a headache but it is possible to have a car that will tow a decent sized van when it has to, but still be affordable for every day use.

colin

 

[terry_374356161]

thanks colin,

the sad part is that as very dear friends i can say no more, as it would be seen to be interfering. He says that the dealer wouldn't lie to him. I could tell by his tone that any further conversation on the subject would be most unwelcome. He doesn't know what you and I know and I can't tell him without arguement.

When the tech information officer for the camping and caravan club comes back from the towcar of the year awards, perhaps, armed with his findings; that the towsafe website compiled by hpi, has innacurate data on this particular vehicle, the dealer who gave them the incorrect information could be persuaded to contact them before any mishap occurs.

I can pray for them or risk falling out with them big time. He most certainly won't believe a word i say.

terry

 

[terry_374356161]

a quick update;

citroen uk sent a reply to my email today:

Thank you for your email from which I have noted your comments.

I am sorry that the information held on the Towsafe database is incorrect. However, as they are an independent business, we have no power to instruct them in their own business affairs nor are we able to answer for, or accept liability for the information on their database.

If Towsafe would like to contact us, we will be happy to provide them with accurate information regarding our vehicles.

If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

CITRO