Indicators on cars

[otherclive]

What about Chez Fany. That’s pretty good too. We stayed in that area for three holidays based just outside Montignac at La Tournerie Ferme. A small site run by two British. It even had two pitches fenced all around for dogs so they could run free.

It was well sited so you could take your car along forest tracks to a nearby hamlet with a small eaterie beloved of local workmen. Ace three course meal plus wine for very little cost. Once took wrong track going back and it got progressively more rocky even the Sorento would have struggled. So backed up to turn around in an isolated cottage drive. Surprise surprise itvwas Jon Snow’s French retreat.

Hutch you have led me into Fred Drift big style 😂

 

[Hutch]

I think I have , we had better reverse back after indicating.

We stayed at Le Moulin du Blufond, south of the river south side.

https://www.bleufond.com

 

[Mr Plodd]

Agreed. Manufacturers are allowed to shrink indicators all in the name of style but won't provide front fogs on the lower spec offerings as it isn't a requirement.

To my mind front fog lights are a complete waste of time, ESPECIALLY when it's dark and foggy.

 

[Hutch]

To my mind front fog lights are a complete waste of time, ESPECIALLY when it's dark and foggy.

On my Santa Fe, I find the "Fog lamps" very useful on the countryside roads.
As the main lights are higher up we have a dead spot for the first few yards and the fog lamps help further sideways.

 

[Dustydog]

Decades ago “Fog” lamps were yellow. Did it help ? No.
I have yet to own a fog light that lets you see better in fog.
The physical make up of fog will cause a very strong beam lamp to totally reflect causing worse visual ability.
Flying a Tornado jet in fog however with its “sophisticated radar” makes it dead easy🤪

 

[Buckman]

I thought fog lights were there to show your location to other road users and not to light your way? Many years ago coming home we ran into a very thick bank of fog. I was not driving. You could not see the white lines on the road until you were right on top of them. We had no option except to continue driving as could not pull over to the side. My mate had the driver's door open so that he could see the white lines passing by the car.

 

[JTQ]

I thought fog lights were there to show your location to other road users and not to light your way?

I don't think that is their primary function, IMO it is to help the driver themselves see better. This being basically achieved by minimising the glare back from the conventional lights.
Other drivers are IMO as likely to see the approaching vehicle's main headlights through the fog as see the vehicle's fog lights?

 

[Buckman]

I don't think that is their primary function, IMO it is to help the driver themselves see better. This being basically achieved by minimising the glare back from the conventional lights.
Other drivers are IMO as likely to see the approaching vehicle's main headlights through the fog as see the vehicle's fog lights?

On modern cars, I am sure that some allow you to move the headlights downwards preventing the glare back from the headlights.

I can recall back in about 1997 on the M40 there was a massive pile up due to cars travelling too fast in fog. One went into the rear of another and set off a chain reaction. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_M42_motorway_crash

In circumstances like that generally I would avoid the nearside lane due to it being used by HGVs travelling at speed so in a car you stand no chance. Better chance of survival in the middle or outside lane. No fog lights, brake lights, indicators etc will save you from people who think there car travelling at 60mph can stop on a dime!

 

[otherclive]

Isn’t it an offence to have fog kights on when it’s not foggy? A policeman stopped my daughter one evening because her fog lights were on. She explained that she had just driven in the Avon Valley and it was foggy close by the river. He just asked her to turn them off.

With DRLs and headlights location of a car should be easy to see by other drivers.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I don't think they're called fog lights these days.

 

[RogerL]

Isn’t it an offence to have fog kights on when it’s not foggy? A policeman stopped my daughter one evening because her fog lights were on. She explained that she had just driven in the Avon Valley and it was foggy close by the river. He just asked her to turn them off.

With DRLs and headlights location of a car should be easy to see by other drivers.

Yes - fog lights, front or back, can only (legally) be used in fog or falling snow when the visibility is less than 100m

 

[Buckman]

I don't think they're called fog lights these days.

They are now Christmas ornaments as they serve no useful function. I would think that the majority of collisions in fog are cars being rear ended as per my link, but many manufacturers still insist on fitting only one rear fog light?

 

[otherclive]

Yes - fog lights, front or back, can only (legally) be used in fog or falling snow when the visibility is less than 100m

I use my rear high intensity lights in heavy rain on motorways or dual carriage ways as visibility is markedly reduced by spray. The will only come on if I’ve got headlights on and front fogs only come on if headlights and rear high intensity lights are on.

 

[Dustydog]

High intensity red rear lights do improve early sighting.
That's why I suggested the old yellow front fogs may have increased the chance of being seen by others.

 

[otherclive]

High intensity red rear lights do improve early sighting.
That's why I suggested the old yellow front fogs may have increased the chance of being seen by others.

They may get confused thinking it’s a French car heading their way😱

 

[Devonisheaven]

To my mind front fog lights are a complete waste of time, ESPECIALLY when it's dark and foggy.

Totally agree. 👍

 

[ProfJohnL]

They are now Christmas ornaments as they serve no useful function. I would think that the majority of collisions in fog are cars being rear ended as per my link, but many manufacturers still insist on fitting only one rear fog light?

Any light that makes you more visible or helps you to see better is not an "ornament" is a safety advantage. The construction and use regulations tell manufacturers to design vehicles with a minimum of one rearward fog lamp.

Pile ups are not caused by lights, they are caused by irresponsible drivers, who can't be bothered to drive sensibly, especially in poor conditions.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I don't think that is their primary function, IMO it is to help the driver themselves see better. This being basically achieved by minimising the glare back from the conventional lights.
Other drivers are IMO as likely to see the approaching vehicle's main headlights through the fog as see the vehicle's fog lights?

The problem with fog is the fine water droplets in the air have a tendency to reflect incident light back along it's incoming trajectory, rather like a cats eye. And that's why headlamps especially on high beam tend to white out the drivers view as the lights and drivers eyes almost share the same axial alignment.

Traditional fog lamps were usually set lower than the head lamps to reduce the amount of reflected light. HGV drivers who tend to sit much higher than the headlights often had a better forward view than car drivers in poor conditions for the same reason.

Also it was thought that by adding a yellow filter to the fog lamps improved their penetration through the water droplets, but I think this has been debunked.

Similarly some people have suggested using polarised lenses to reduce horizontal reflected light. I'm not sure about this one.

 

[Buckman]

Any light that makes you more visible or helps you to see better is not an "ornament" is a safety advantage. The construction and use regulations tell manufacturers to design vehicles with a minimum of one rearward fog lamp.

Pile ups are not caused by lights, they are caused by irresponsible drivers, who can't be bothered to drive sensibly, especially in poor conditions.

Front fog lights total waste of time as you have DRLs so is ornamental. Not sure how they could be classed as a safety feature in anyway as they serve no useful purpose? Maybe okay on a trailer?

 

[Jcloughie]

The problem with fog is the fine water droplets in the air have a tendency to reflect incident light back along it's incoming trajectory, rather like a cats eye. And that's why headlamps especially on high beam tend to white out the drivers view as the lights and drivers eyes almost share the same axial alignment.

Traditional fog lamps were usually set lower than the head lamps to reduce the amount of reflected light. HGV drivers who tend to sit much higher than the headlights often had a better forward view than car drivers in poor conditions for the same reason.

Also it was thought that by adding a yellow filter to the fog lamps improved their penetration through the water droplets, but I think this has been debunked.

Similarly some people have suggested using polarised lenses to reduce horizontal reflected light. I'm not sure about this one.

I have not needed to drive in fog for many years I am pleased to say. I well remember thick fog and using old tungsten headlights with the reflection of the fog you outline. It is not nice.

I do wonder if modern halogen or LED lights would be better or worse in the same circumstances. Worse I imagine. Therefore low level fog lights would be useful. If used without headlights.

My own car, a Mazda C5 used to have fog lights, but Mazda have dropped them. I don’t know what Mazda’s reasoning is. Perhaps just cost saving. My car has the automatic LED headlights. The beam is constantly adjusted depending on what the forward facing camera sees. In the dark they work very well, though it is disconcerting to drive with the high beam warning light lit.

I do wonder how these will fair in fog conditions.

Any light that makes you more visible or helps you to see better is not an "ornament" is a safety advantage.

Except, I remember driving past a crash scene at night. All services were attending and every vehicle left their blue lights on. Could have been 20 vehicles there. The weather was fine drizzle.

The result was, oncoming traffic could not properly see the road or any diversions. The emergency services were inadvertently causing dangerous driving conditions in the area.

The affect was similar to following someone with rear fog lights turned on in rain, on an otherwise clear night.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Front fog lights total waste of time as you have DRLs so is ornamental. Not sure how they could be classed as a safety feature in anyway as they serve no useful purpose? Maybe okay on a trailer?

DRLs are not the same as traditional fog lamps in most instances, their purpose and design is different.

A traditional front fog light had a focused beam reflector and its purpose was to point and illuminated the way ahead from a different angle to that of the vehicles head lights, and by doing so it reduced the scatter glare that would arise if the lamps were closer to the viewers perspective.

By also using a a reduced amber and yellow light, it was hoped the degree of beam scatter would be reduced so it might allow some enhancement of the drivers view.

DRLs are not a focussed beam, their purpose is not to illuminated the way ahead, but to make your vehicle more visible to other road users and pedestrians at night or in other reduced visibility situations.

 

[Buckman]

DRLs are not a focussed beam, their purpose is not to illuminated the way ahead, but to make your vehicle more visible to other road users and pedestrians at night or in other reduced visibility situations.

Is that also the claim for the next to useless ornamental front fog lights? Not sure, but I think on many cars then headlights need to be on for the fog lights to operate? I have not driven in thick fog for a number of years and have to admit I have no idea how to switch them on as have not bothered to check. My bad!

 

[Dustydog]

Surely all fogs are to help others see you

 

[Buckman]

Surely all fogs are to help others see you

I can understand for the rear lights as they are essential, but not for the front ones. As approaching traffic will be travelling in the opposite direction and will be in their lane. If not, by the time they see your fog lights it will be too late anyway?

 

[JTQ]

I have not driven in thick fog for a number of years

On what basis then is the condemnation of them determined?
I have over the years a lot of fog, mainly night time driving experience.
My preference is driving on dipped driving lights, only in quite recent years have I had dedicated fog lights as well.

Surely all fogs are to help others see you

This depends IMO on whether discussing the front or rear variants, the rear, again IMO clearly are, the fronts where mine are placed right down on the front spoiler well below the day time and parking and driving lights, IMO are primarily there to help my driving vision.