Is 75kg Noseweight Limit Enough?

[Chris_374224489]

We are looking at a new car & the version that we would choose will tow up to 1800kg but has a nose weight limit of 75kg. The car that we currently have is limited to 1250kg but still has the 75kg noseweight limit. We have to pack carefully to get it down to that even though the total weight is not a problem.

The caravan we are looking at for next year is 1500kg.

Is the 75kg enough for a 1500kg caravan & perhaps slightly more?

 

[RayS]

Hello Chris, it depends on how badly you want the particular caravan. I've just changed my towcar from one with 100Kg limit to one with 76 (every little helps !) and it's difficult to get a 1500kg van down to 75 but can be done. The heavy items up front tend to be gas bottles - change to Calorlite or BP, and the spare wheel if locker mounted. If possible get a carrier and put it underneath, or under the bed if a fixed bed van. see how much of the really heavy other stuff you can get into the car rather than the van - preferrably on or infront of the rear axle - hope you new car is not front wheel drive as this will make things even more difficult.

Depending on where you are going, think of the return trip as well as outbound - where are you going to store all that lovely wine and booze ? Wine boxes are better from this point of view than bottles - just weigh an empty wine bottle, add .75kg and then multiply by the number you normally buy.

In other threads you can read what the usual "essential equipment" weighs - EHU cable, aquaroll etc. It's frightening how it all adds up. You also need a good noseweight gauge and or bathroom scales etc and time to experiment.

Finally dont forget that 75kg is 5% of 1500 but anthing significantly more than 1500 will drop this - the figure for stable towing is generally recokened to be 5 to 7% of van all up weight (i.e. everything in). If you are experienced this should be ok but if a newcomer to towing i might suggest second thoughts.

 

[Chris_374224489]

Hello Chris, it depends on how badly you want the particular caravan. I've just changed my towcar from one with 100Kg limit to one with 76 (every little helps !) and it's difficult to get a 1500kg van down to 75 but can be done. The heavy items up front tend to be gas bottles - change to Calorlite or BP, and the spare wheel if locker mounted. If possible get a carrier and put it underneath, or under the bed if a fixed bed van. see how much of the really heavy other stuff you can get into the car rather than the van - preferrably on or infront of the rear axle - hope you new car is not front wheel drive as this will make things even more difficult.

Depending on where you are going, think of the return trip as well as outbound - where are you going to store all that lovely wine and booze ? Wine boxes are better from this point of view than bottles - just weigh an empty wine bottle, add .75kg and then multiply by the number you normally buy.

In other threads you can read what the usual "essential equipment" weighs - EHU cable, aquaroll etc. It's frightening how it all adds up. You also need a good noseweight gauge and or bathroom scales etc and time to experiment.

Finally dont forget that 75kg is 5% of 1500 but anthing significantly more than 1500 will drop this - the figure for stable towing is generally recokened to be 5 to 7% of van all up weight (i.e. everything in). If you are experienced this should be ok but if a newcomer to towing i might suggest second thoughts.

Thanks Ray S

I have been a caravanner for 25 years but have always liked as much nose weight as possible for stability when towing.

Packing is a variable feast. Our last two caravans with similar weights were wildy different in this respect. Our previous one was easy to pack for 75kg or less nose weight whilst this one is nearly that before you start. As you say a couple of gas bottles & a sparer wheel in the front locker don't help at all. It is certainly something that we will be more careful about with our next choice of van.

The question was really about stability as we have never been down around thew 5% figure before.

 

[Zafiral]

A little know fact is that it is illegal to tow with a nose weight of less than 4%!!!!

I have a 1482kg mtplm caravan and a 75kg towball limit so I have limited leeway!!

Technically if you tow upto the limit of the new car you are looking at gives you a leeway of only 3kg. That means that you will have to move things around dependendent on whether you gas bottles are full or empty.

With the van you are looking at you have a 15kg leeway (legal from 60 - 75kg).

From memory in the Towcars of the year awards there was a 308 with 65kg noseweight and max to 1600kg - the leeway there is 1kg so lets hope you have an accurate set of scales. If that is incorrect, please correct me.

 

[Lutz]

I'm afraid you've got it wrong, Zafiral. The law does not require 4% noseweight unless the trailer weighs less than 625kg. The minimum requirement is 4% OR 25kg, whichever is the lower.

 

[RayS]

Hi Chris, i know what you mean abut getting down to 5% or less, as my current towcar is the first not to be a 4x4 for many years. I guess you van will have a built in stabilizer - probably Alko - so that should help a bit. I have not towed very many miles with the new car but certainly it is more affected my passing HGVs than were the two previous 4x4 but that's only to be expected at only about 55% of the weight So I would say give it a go but be careful. One other factor is to get the nose weight measurement as accurate as you can. Some of the older gauges tended to be not very easy to use and read - have a look at the new Milenco which claims to be accurate to plus/minus 2 kg when used correctly and to tbe BS approved (although I have not looked up the Standard to see exactly what it means).

 

[Zafiral]

Sorry for the error I got my info from on the Practical Caravan site.

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/legal/index.html
Mods if this is wrong can this be corrected?

 

[Chris_374224489]

5% noseweight sounds very small to me & the longer the caravan gets the smaller it sounds.

I guess that this will be an increasing issue as the move is to smaller cars which are deliberately made as light as possible but nobody wants to give up the luxuries in their van. I really doubt that they can be made much lighter.

 

[Royston]

This question might through a spanner into the works.

Do you require a special towball to carry the 100Kg plus nose weight , reason for asking is, that the previous towball that I took off the car and replaced with a alko towball to suit the alko stabiliser, had a label warning that the towball was suitable for up to 75Kg.

Royston

 

[Chris_374224489]

As I understand the law for cars first manufactured after 1st August 1998 they must have a type approved tow bar fitted which must have a manufacturers label fixed to it stating, amongst other things, the trailer load and the noseweight limit - the "S" value in kg. The towball fitted must have an equal or higher "S" value than the towbar.

I have just looked at the "Towsure" web site & all their towballs are well over 100kg.

I am surprised that you can buy one that is less than this.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I can't help feeling that this thread is getting bogged down discussing percentages rather than the getting to the crux of the matter that is how much nose weight is required to achieve a good tow. There is no fixed or definitive solution to this so; Keeping full regard of the law and the technical limits set by the manufacturers, you only need as much nose load that allow you to keep in full control of the outfit.

BUT

As so often happens, focusing on a single criteria you can loose sight of the wood for the trees, there is a bigger picture, and nose load is only a part of it. In my view there are five major influences that determine how well an outfit behaves on the road.

1 Mechanical condition of the tug and trailer - especially suspension and tyres

2 Relative weights of tug and trailer, not the theoretical towing ratio, but the real life ratio. The trailer should be kept as light as possible.

3 The way tug and trailer have load distributed in each vehicle (this produces the nose and axle loads)

4 Road conditions.

5 last but not least, the drivers driving style and competence, especially speed.

Fundamentally instability is created by excessive speed, (not necessarily the same as speeding) so if you outfit feels less than fully controlled slow down, stop at the nearest safe place, and readjust the loading to see if it can be improved.

 

[Chris_374224489]

JohnL

I agree totally but the question was do most people find 5% enough? If you have purchases a car & a caravan there is only so much that you can do. If most users are unhappy at 5% the it tells me something.

 

[xtrailman]

Chris

I have towed 1330kg with a 65kg nose weight, and towed at 60mph with no stability issues, that's a 23' external lentgh caravan.

Personally i have found no extra stability towing with the xtrail over the audi i had, but the xtrail allows a 100kg nose weight, which makes loading less of a hassle.

Having said that, the latest version of the xtrail, towed slightly less stable than the previous version, which i load up to 80-85kg, so next time out i am going to try 90kg nose weight.

This brings me closer to the 7% recommendation. But i suspect that i will find no benefit?

 

[Zafiral]

Not that I am even daring to contradict Lutz, but can someone confirm that the Practical Caravan Legal section is wrong stating that nose weight must be at least 4%.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Chris

No two combinations of car and caravan will be identical. What is good nose load for one has no relevance for another. So aiming at a specific percentage of MTPLM is of little practical use other than being a starting point from which you make adjustments.

Don't forget that your own combination changes the amounts of weight you are carry between the start and the end of a holiday, so what nose load might be right at the begging may need to change for the return journey.

By the same reasoning It is really irrelevant what others find to be suitable, it is what YOU need to effect a good tow.

The only advice I will offer is this:

It is generally accepted that a better tow is achieved with big nose load. On that basis I suggest you load your caravan to give the biggest nose load your car is specified for. Try it. If its OK then try reducing a bit at a time, until you find the point at which you find it becomes uncomfortable. Add just a few Kg to give you some margin.

Do not worry about percentages. Provided you remain within the legal limits for weights/loads and you are happy with your tow then what is teh problem.

 

[Lutz]

Annex II, Paragraph 3.3.2. of EU Directive 95/48/EC states, quote:

3.3.2. The technically permissible static vertical load on the coupling device is that stated by the manufacturer; this load must be not less than 4 % of the maximum permissible towable mass and not less than 25 kg. The manufacturer must specify in the owner's manual the maximum permissible static vertical load on the coupling device, the mounting points of the coupling device on the motor vehicle and the maximum permissible overhang of the coupling device.

 

[Zafiral]

Lutz

That to me is a bit ambiguous and could be taken either way.

 

[Lutz]

It's not my text but theirs, copied straight out of the EU Directive. However, I thought I'd check the same text in a couple of other languages to see whether their translations are any less ambiguous. After reading the French and German versions (my knowledge of the 20 other languages is not good enough to permit judgment) I would agree with you that they mean 4% minimum or at least 25kg, i.e.contrary to my first reply in this thread.

My apologies.

 

[Zafiral]

Lutz

No problems, I agree that the situation needs clarifying.

 

[BillD.]

I think it means the same thing. eg say a 500kg trailer- 4% = 20kg which is ok for the 'not less than 4%, but is less than 25kg so in this example 25kg would be the determining figure.

Bill D.

 

[Zafiral]

Bill, my point exactly so therefore for a car with a 65kg nose weight limit and a 1600kg towing limit, the legal max noseweight is 65 kg and the legal minimum is 64kg so not a great deal of leaway!!!

 

[xtrailman]

I am pretty sure that the bailey manual states a minimum of 35kg for the 2004 range?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi

I am beginning to sense that there may be more to this than meets the eye. In general The large caravan manufactures are pretty good at getting the correct towing information into their handbooks.

If the EU quote that Lutz has published is the whole story then it might appear that Ray's assertion about Bailey Caravans requiring a minimum of 35kg nose load may be inaccurate.

Based on the quoted regulation, and ignoring small trailers, the trailers actual mass should be no more than 25 times the nose load. So for a Bailey nose load of only 35kg the trailer can be no more that 875kg. How many Baileys gross in at only 875kg? None of the current range even leave the factory at or below this figure!

Either there is more to the regulations that defines the allowable nose load, or Bailey or Ray's interpretaton is wrong.

More digging I think.

 

[xtrailman]

I thought i better check my statement.

I was wrong.

Confusing my last van which had an unladen nose weight of 35kg, end kitchen.

The bailey hand book and the caravan club, both recommend a nose weight between 50kg and 100kg, limits permitting.

Also 7% of the actual laden weight is recommended, again limits permitted.

 

[Lutz]

Various sources recommend 7%, but nobody really knows where it came from and nobody has ever produced any data that indicates that it is, in fact, the optimum.