Key Cloning Again

[Dustydog]

As NHW coordinator I receive regular bulletins from Wiltshire Police.

This note follows on from an earlier thread on the same topic.

HIGH VALUE CAR THEFT - Over the past few weeks there have been a series of Keyless theft of high performance vehicles including BMW’s and Mercedes across the county. Offenders will select a car they wish to steal and then approach the front of the house with the key scanner looking for a signal that opens the car. PREVENT - A cheap, very quick and brilliantly effective way to protect your key when it's lying around at home is to buy a signal-blocking box or pouch. By storing your car keys, fob or card in an aluminium tin (even grandma's old biscuit tins), or a special signal blocking box, the signal between the car and key is blocked.

Attachments https://members.wiltsmessaging.co.uk/AlertMessage/Attachment/65EA4DB4CA3CA79E0B458CE1E749EAA3

 

[Bluetonic]

That is good advice, and the reason I hate keyless entry on our car.
Our keys are stored well away from the outside of the building in a rfid pouch.
We also use rfid wallets for bank cards.

 

[Woodentop]

Whilst the advice above is good, it is always worth checking if there is a way to disable the keyless acces on your vehicle. We have just got a Karoq with keyless entry and there are a number of methods of disabling various locking functions, all of which are describe in the handbook (printed or on-line.)
Two examples: how many times have you heard a car alarm going off because a dog has been left in the car and the volumetric (i.e. ultrasonic) detection has seen them move and alarmed? In most cars pressing the key lock button twice disables the the ultrasonics, or (for example in VAG vehicle) in earlier models there was often a push button low down on the driver's side B-pillar (i.e. by the driver's elbox) which did the same thing. This function will often also disable the vehicle movement detection (so ferry rocking doesn't upset it) and the deadlocks.
On my Karoq there is a simple way to disable the keyless operation so that you <must> use the key fob button to unlock and the fob has to be within 1.5m of the vehicle. I will not explain it here for obvious reasons, but it is well explained in the instructions.

 

[otherclive]

I disabled mine as every time I walked by the car the mirror’s opened out and on dark days the interior lights came on. Now it’s the fob.

 

[littlebasher]

Keys in a Faraday box and a good old fashioned (quality) steering wheel lock.

 

[JTQ]

If we use my car, then my wife carries the spare key for my car in a purpose designed "keyless fob" pouch, basically so if needing she can access the car when I am elsewhere.
My key, if I am not out in my car lives in a metal safe.
Going "keyless" was anything but a vehicle purchasing choice, it just comes that way with the other kit we wanted.
I am particularly alert to ensuring these keys are protected, all a bit of a pain for what to me is little gain.

 

[Hutch]

I tried a test in our local pub, ( Where else for me) to try and " Scan My Card,) in my wallet, The pub scanner can't do it. If you have two cards or more with the wallet. the scanner can't do it.

 

[Beachball]

The new car got a Keyfree system so probably look in getting a Faraday box so we can put them in there for safe keeping

 

[Buckman]

We have these. One for daily use and one for the spare keys.

 

[JTQ]

In respect to keyless, getting the key in and out of the pouch in a disciplined manner, to me involves more hassle than the alternative with our other keyless car where we blip the open, lock, or boot button as required and have to put the key in the column lock and turn the ignition on and off.
With these keyless devices now so open to hacking forcing the above routines, I have to question where any advantage lays, not one I readily appreciate.
Tends to result in one becoming a little "sloppy" in the ideal security routine when out and about and then having to hoist in doing the security bit in the evening etc. That in itself another risk.

 

[Buckman]

In respect to keyless, getting the key in and out of the pouch in a disciplined manner, to me involves more hassle than the alternative with our other keyless car where we blip the open, lock, or boot button as required and have to put the key in the column lock and turn the ignition on and off.
With these keyless devices now so open to hacking forcing the above routines, I have to question where any advantage lays, not one I readily appreciate.
Tends to result in one becoming a little "sloppy" in the ideal security routine when out and about and then having to hoist in doing the security bit in the evening etc. That in itself another risk.

However by the same token with a normal ignition and opportunist thief can access the vehicle and steal it. For a car that requires the blip, easier to steal than a keyless model as that can be done at any time of the day and does not require sophisticated equipment like that for a keyless car.

No matter what sort of entry, ignition or security system you have on the vehicle, some enterprising thief will find away around it no matter how difficult you make it.
However this system seems to work. 😂😂😂

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLhWzMOccTg

 

[JTQ]

However by the same token with a normal ignition and opportunist thief can access the vehicle and steal it. For a car that requires the blip, easier to steal than a keyless model as that can be done at any time of the day and does not require sophisticated equipment like that for a keyless car.

Possibly, but the mechanical column locking as well as the getting over the electrical "ignition" and starter activation are IMO somewhat more involved at vehicle operations to undertake than simply driving off, as is an at vehicle option with stealing a keyless vehicle.

 

[Jcloughie]

We have these. One for daily use and one for the spare keys.

Exactly what we have, works very well. OH keeps the spare in her handbag within the pouch, just in case.

I disabled mine as every time I walked by the car the mirror’s opened out and on dark days the interior lights came on. Now it’s the fob.

That sounds a bit over-sensitive. With mine, it is necessary to either press the button on the key or the small button on the handle to activate the systems. But the boot can be opened so long as the key is within a metre.

John

 

[otherclive]

Exactly what we have, works very well. OH keeps the spare in her handbag within the pouch, just in case.



That sounds a bit over-sensitive. With mine, it is necessary to either press the button on the key or the small button on the handle to activate the systems. But the boot can be opened so long as the key is within a metre.

John

When it senses a key the mirrors come out and lights will come on if dark. But it still requires me to press a button on the door handle to be able to open the drivers door. Passenger doors will unlock when engine is on. But then lock again above 5 mph. Alternatively if I press the fob twice all doors unlock. I’m a bit like JTQ and feel keyless is the answer to a question that wasn’t asked.

 

[JTQ]

Just now opened my LV= car insurance renewal for the keyless Disco4, its seventh year, gone up 31% on last years.
Yet to quiz why, but have a feeling in part "keyless" might be a factor, whilst I am a year older, that seems to happen each year, I have not made a claim in the last 5 years.

 

[Buckman]

When it senses a key the mirrors come out and lights will come on if dark. But it still requires me to press a button on the door handle to be able to open the drivers door. Passenger doors will unlock when engine is on. But then lock again above 5 mph. Alternatively if I press the fob twice all doors unlock. I’m a bit like JTQ and feel keyless is the answer to a question that wasn’t asked.

I have to be within a about 2 - 3 foot of the door otherwise pressing the button on the door will not open the door. Pressing the button on the fob only unlocks the door and the lights come on, but nothing else. The key has to be present within the vehicle to activate the ignition. If I unlock the car and do not open a door, the vehicle automatically locks itself again.

 

[Sam Vimes]

This problem has been around for years. Not just keyless but also the remote key fobs can be spoofed.

I recently made a post about two Tesla drivers who had identical looking cars parked next to each other but they managed to drive off in the wrong one after unlocking them with their 'Dumbphones'

Contactless cards can also be cloned if you have the right equipment and just from a brush past.

Some years back my wife went to pay by contactless card, which she held, but also had her wallet in her hand. The machine used the card in her wallet. Since then we use RFID Blocking Sleeves. I've checked these work because if your tablet or smartphone has Near Field Communication enabled you can get a free app which will check to see if it can read your cards - no sensitive information is captured though.

 

[Jcloughie]

As mentioned above, we have the sleeves for our keys, but for the cards, we have an extra special blocking card that just fits next to your cards and is supposed to block. But as Hutch said, if you have a number of cards together they should confuse a scammer.

Example

John

 

[Hutch]

As mentioned above, we have the sleeves for our keys, but for the cards, we have an extra special blocking card that just fits next to your cards and is supposed to block. But as Hutch said, if you have a number of cards together they should confuse a scammer.

Example

John

I am sure as with anything, the people who can clone cards etc soon enough , they will be able to scan and clone the two or three credit/debit cards that are together, RFID card holder will be best.

 

[Buckman]

I am sure as with anything, the people who can clone cards etc soon enough , they will be able to scan and clone the two or three credit/debit cards that are together, RFID card holder will be best.

Would anyone trying to scan your cards would need to be next to you for a few minutes to get card details? Also how would they then use that info to buy anything as surely a card needs to be presented to buy something from a shop and they are limited to £100 in any one transaction? Not sure how many £100 transactions they could do in one day?

 

[Jcloughie]

Would anyone trying to scan your cards would need to be next to you for a few minutes to get card details? Also how would they then use that info to buy anything as surely a card needs to be presented to buy something from a shop and they are limited to £100 in any one transaction? Not sure how many £100 transactions they could do in one day?

The card does not need to be presented. Many people use their phone instead.

John

 

[Jcloughie]

Just now opened my LV= car insurance renewal for the keyless Disco4, its seventh year, gone up 31% on last years.
Yet to quiz why, but have a feeling in part "keyless" might be a factor, whilst I am a year older, that seems to happen each year, I have not made a claim in the last 5 years.

I reinsured a month ago. Like you, LV had gone up quite a bit. So I spent a lot of time searching for a cheaper option. Sadly, the cheapest was still LV.

John

 

[Buckman]

The card does not need to be presented. Many people use their phone instead.

John

I have no idea how the phone works for paying for goods as never tried it and hate being stuck behind someone who is trying to use it and it doesn't seem to work. LOL! 😂

 

[Jcloughie]

I have no idea how the phone works for paying for goods as never tried it and hate being stuck behind someone who is trying to use it and it doesn't seem to work. LOL! 😂

I agree, I think the phone gives out the same code as the card. I looked at it once, I think it meant I needed to get the phone out open it, open banking then use the phone. So no advantage on using a card.

I have seen lots use them in shops, but they are prepared before the checkout, so no problem.

John

 

[otherclive]

I agree, I think the phone gives out the same code as the card. I looked at it once, I think it meant I needed to get the phone out open it, open banking then use the phone. So no advantage on using a card.

I have seen lots use them in shops, but they are prepared before the checkout, so no problem.

John

Don’t you tap wallet from the Home Screen. See the cards you have stored. Tap the card and present the phone to the reader. Banking apps not required.

The other option is push the home button twice and up pops your wallet. Wakes up a sleeping phone.