Legality of selling surplus gas bottles

[colin-yorkshire]

yeah interesting conundrum, while Damian is correct, and in theory there is a laid down procedure for users of calor gas in practice it is not that simple, I say this by way of experience, my first bottle was hired when we got the first van back in the 1970's and the second, came by the way of a friend who no longer used it, both bottles, were changed on a regular basis, right up to selling the van, at the time one was full one was empty, like many others the full one went with the van so therefore must have been sold illegally as it was included in the van purchase, but also like everybody else I was never asked for the agreement when changing bottles, so assume the new van owner would do the same.

the second one being empty, was harder to dispose of at first I popped down to the local calor agent to hand it back, no can do, he would not accept it, because for the first time in 40 years wanted the original agreement so he could cancel it, and because I no longer had one it wasn't part of the supply chain. [new for old] and as I did not want a replacement it could not be sent back as all his stock was sale or return so he could not handle spare bottles, he suggested I contact calor direct, who would handle the return, after three weeks of trying to get an answer from calor I gave up and took it to the recycling centre, who took it without question, no idea what happened to the cylinder after that and if calor ever got it back either way I don't care.

while it may be true that calor own all the cylinders and you only buy the contents their logistics is a shambles, no wonder they had no idea how many faulty lite bottles were affected or where they were during the recall. my advice is just take them for recycling. and let calor worry about getting them back.

 

[Raywood]

It must be something like 30 years since we got our Calor bottles so they are well out of time for a refund. Given I would get nothing back on them there is no incentive for me to return them when the time comes to give up the caravan and if someone offered me £5 for them I would probably take it. If Calor were serious about reducing the sale of the cylinders then they would allow something back on returning them. Frankly they do not seem to be worried about the sale so I would not worry about it.

 

[saint-spoon]

I am not and expert on such things but I am not entirely sure that selling the bottles is directly covered by any statute law regarding ownership. It would seem to me that if the owner of the bottles was worried about their bottles being sold on by a third party then it would be a civil case for them to pursue through the courts; the person who signs the original contract would be in breach of that contract if they did not fulfil the return policies to which they signed. The bottles are however are covered by various acts including The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 and the Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999 and The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998 (GSIUR). As with a lot of health and safety regulation the onus is very much on the supplier to ensure that the product being supplied is safe to use which is where I suspect the whole contract with the supplier thing comes into play, by signing the contract you are agreeing to abide by the rules of the supplier which will in theory ensure that the necessary inspections of the pressure vessels are carried out prior to supply. Saying that I haven’t read deeply enough to know for sure but I suspect that the various laws governing portable fuel gas pressure vessels may well stipulate who can supply them. As is always the case with Health and Safety law, even though you may be exempt by one section of legislation you can be covered by another. Take for instance GSUIR, there is a specific exemption for privately owned touring caravans being used for leisure purposes, however if there is an incident or an explosion caused by a faulty gas bottle that could be covered under the Reporting of Incidents, Diseases, and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 2013 (RIDDOR) (as well as other regulations) and the ensuing investigation would most definitely look into the pedigree of the bottle in question. I hope that this clears things up. :silly:

 

[Damian]

Errrmmmmmmmmmm NO, it does not clear anything up as most of what you posted has nothing whatsoever to do with the original question.

All the references to the various regulations regarding gas including transport, RIDDOR, H&S etc have no bearing on the crux of the matter which is that the cylinders belong to Calor and remain their property at all times.

Uses of Calor Gas only HIRE the cylinder (and replacement cylinders) for a single hire fee ( plus the cost of the gas).

The user of the gas is not legally entitled to dispose of the cylinder other than to return it to Calor as it does not belong to them.

 

[saint-spoon]

OK which law specifically states that you can not resell the bottles? Is there one laid down in statute or would it be a civil case?
My point is that buy reselling a bottle you may unwittingly fall fowl of legislation that you did not realise existed and that the lease agreement that you sign will cover the original distributor's legal requirements to ensure that the bottles are fit for purpose.

 

[Damian]

First a quote from the Calor cylinder agreement:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3. Cylinders remain the property of the Company at all times and may only be filled by the Company

The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations.

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now to answer the most stupid question so far
"OK which law specifically states that you can not resell the bottles "

Try the Theft Act, or Obtaining by Pecuniary advantage by deception

What is so hard to accept that the cylinders belong to Calor, NOT the user.

 

[ProfJohnL]

OK which law specifically states that you can not resell the bottles? Is there one laid down in statute or would it be a civil case?
My point is that buy reselling a bottle you may unwittingly fall fowl of legislation that you did not realise existed and that the lease agreement that you sign will cover the original distributor's legal requirements to ensure that the bottles are fit for purpose.

The selling of Calor bottles is precicely against the original hire agreement taken out That is a legally (Civi) binding contract. As Damian has very clearly stated the hirer has no right to sell or dispose of the bottle other thna back to the legal owner who is calor.

Disposal by other the hirer in any other way renders them in breach of thier contract and Calor could seek redress from the hirer. The disposal of the cylinder by any other means amounts to THEFT which is a criminal offence.

Any one who sells or purchases a Calor cylinder is technically dealing in stolen goods, which is also a criminal offence.

In an earlier comments, someone claims Coincils sell calor bottles from their recycling centres. WRONG no council will sell products brought into rubbish recycling centres except to authorised recycling companies. Any worker who sells such items will be doing so without the councils permission and thus illegally

That should be the end of this debate as there is no excuse to knowingly break the law.

 

[KeefySher]

First a quote from the Calor cylinder agreement:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3. Cylinders remain the property of the Company at all times and may only be filled by the Company

The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations.

4. Use of Cylinders

Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now to answer the most stupid question so far
"OK which law specifically states that you can not resell the bottles "

Try the Theft Act, or Obtaining by Pecuniary advantage by deception

What is so hard to accept that the cylinders belong to Calor, NOT the user.

Yeah but no but...

My original Calor bottle, the old green one with the riveted plate by the handle, was handed down from my father, who had no agreement with Calor. That bottle was changed for a camping gas one to use on a single screw in burner. Was then changed for a blue calor bottle that had a regulator for a twin burner with grill used for camping. Was then changed for a green calor bottle with a flame gun for paint stripping. Was then changed for a camping gas 807 for a camper van installation, and a second camping gas 807 was obtained from the local tip for nothing as a spare. One of those was then changed for a Calor Garden BBQ butane bottle to run the Cadac on, and last year was changed for a CalorLite for the caravan from the local Calor supplier. After explaining the saga of nearly 60 years of Calor gas bottle use in the real world where there was never an agreement in place, no agreement on the CalorLite. Only ever paid for the gas, not the bottle rental.
I've not met anyone who has an agreement with Calor, always a first for everything. Only obtained bottles from the tip and exchanged for full ones of the type I wanted, often not like for like.
Must be a criminal
Regardless of the legalese of the wording of the agreement Calor have, the actual practicality of enforcement through the courts is almost certainly improbable. If there is no agreement in place with both parties, how can it be an agreement? Which goes to prove yet again the law is an ass.
This is another noseweight gauge thread, isn't it?
Anyone want to buy a full CG 807? :evil: :evil:

 

[saint-spoon]

How likely do you think that it is that anyone has ever been prosecuted for selling on empty gas cylinders under the theft act (1968) especially if they have lost the original contract? You have to prove intent and that I feel would be where the CPS would draw the line. If you can not prove intent to permanently deprive the owner then then no law has been broken. If you were selling the gas in the bottle the CPS would have to prove that your intent to permanently deprive the owner of the cylinder.
The theft act also covers receiving stolen goods, technically if you buy a second hand cylinder you are receiving stolen goods unless you do not know that they are technically stolen or do not belong to the person selling to you… and the intent thing is again near impossible to prove.
Now you have to ask yourself whether the CPS are worried about folk passing gas bottles to each other? Second thing are the gas providers worried about whether or not the person swapping in a gas cylinder and paying them money for the full cylinder was the one who signed the original contract?
Anyway were are arguing about the intricacies of criminal law and I am a safety consultant not a lawyer so I will stick to what I understand and bow down to your superior knowledge of what is and what isn’t a criminal act.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Its incredible that some people will go out of their way to comply with traditions and other guides that have no legal force and such as the 85% tow ratio advice , but then who will openly flout contractual obligations such as the Calor agreements, and even some legal things such as speed limits.

Not all speeders are caught and prosecuted, does that reduce the seriousness of the offense? NO we all know its wrong legally and morally and no amount discussion is going to change that

We now all know that selling and even lending a Calor bottle is contrary to the contract so does disclosing how many times the contract has been broken change the meaning or the legality of the contract?

NO!!

You know its wrong, you know the must be a finite possibility that Calor might decided to try to enforce their contact sometime, so why perpetuate and suggest the continuations of an illegal act.

This forum is about sharing best practice which should never be an illegal act.

 

[Beehpee]

There's such a thing as the real world though, it's strange that given it's illegal to sell calor bottles and anyone doing so could be prosecuted and the buyer prosecuted for receiving stolen goods, I just visited a worldwide purveyor of stolen goods in that case, a search of gas bottles on flea bay brings up pages of gas bottles of all makes, sizes and from empty to full, I wonder if there's a reward for reporting them to crime stoppers, shan't hold my breath, not until I move to utopia.

BP

 

[colin-yorkshire]

This is another noseweight gauge thread, isn't it?

Yup :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: .

as with all these chuck about threads, someone asked a question, someone answers with a open can of worms and here we go again, however in the real world nobody gives a toss [bit like the nose weight saga], least of all Calor, if they did you would have to produce a valid contract certificate in order to obtain a new [refilled] cylinder AND would also instruct their suppliers to with hold any rogue cylinders presented for exchange, instead they even dissuade a genuine user for returning a bottle into the supply chain because they have no agreement to hand. which of course means that the holder has to find alternative methods of disposal.
one also assumes that because the contract has a sliding scale to zero, in the value of the returned bottle to Calor, it accepts that a bottle hire contract reduces in value to nothing after a number years, as the contract is never renewed.

as some will say it may be illegal to obtain a bottle without a contract from Calor but in practice a bottle is just a bottle and one pays for the contents only. that is why any recycling centre will have a compound full of red and blue, also yellow, green and orange bottles, as it is the only way one can dispose of them, so this leads to the crux of the question, what is the difference between passing on a bottle to the council run centre and a friend who wants it,
"nothing".. anything else is just complicated legal jargon, [bit like the nose weight issue].

 

[Gagakev]

This is another noseweight gauge thread, isn't it?

Yup :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: .

as with all these chuck about threads, someone asked a question, someone answers with a open can of worms and here we go again, however in the real world nobody gives a toss [bit like the nose weight saga], least of all Calor, if they did you would have to produce a valid contract certificate in order to obtain a new [refilled] cylinder AND would also instruct their suppliers to with hold any rogue cylinders presented for exchange, instead they even dissuade a genuine user for returning a bottle into the supply chain because they have no agreement to hand. which of course means that the holder has to find alternative methods of disposal.
one also assumes that because the contract has a sliding scale to zero, in the value of the returned bottle to Calor, it accepts that a bottle hire contract reduces in value to nothing after a number years, as the contract is never renewed.

as some will say it may be illegal to obtain a bottle without a contract from Calor but in practice a bottle is just a bottle and one pays for the contents only. that is why any recycling centre will have a compound full of red and blue, also yellow, green and orange bottles, as it is the only way one can dispose of them, so this leads to the crux of the question, what is the difference between passing on a bottle to the council run centre and a friend who wants it,
"nothing".. anything else is just complicated legal jargon, [bit like the nose weight issue].

But if you remove the Calor bottles from your locker you reduce the noseweight surely....... :evil:

 

[Beehpee]

If you want to reduce nose weight there's plenty of calor lite bottles available on certain auction site, obviously contributing to the shortage of legally available bottles though.

 

[KeefySher]

If you want to reduce nose weight there's plenty of calor lite bottles available on certain auction site, obviously contributing to the shortage of legally available bottles though.

My Calorlite bottle was from a Calor Stockist. I only paid for the gas, not the bottle, though. I don't have an agreement. But I did swap a big heavy old Garden BBQ Gas bottle from Calor, for it, that I also had no agreement for. Therefore reducing my nose weight. Which raises the question of am I legal? Not to conflate matters of weight legality with lite legality, is the gas i bought legally lite or lighter than hot air espoused herein this thread?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

If you want to reduce nose weight there's plenty of calor lite bottles available on certain auction site, obviously contributing to the shortage of legally available bottles though.

My Calorlite bottle was from a Calor Stockist. I only paid for the gas, not the bottle, though. I don't have an agreement. But I did swap a big heavy old Garden BBQ Gas bottle from Calor, for it, that I also had no agreement for. Therefore reducing my nose weight. Which raises the question of am I legal? Not to conflate matters of weight legality with lite legality, is the gas i bought legally lite or lighter than hot air espoused herein this thread?

NO the gas is just the same weight, :woohoo: the only difference is the weight of the illegally obtained bottle.

 

[chrisn7]

Perhaps I am a bit sad in that I find I have my agreement when I bought my first van back in 1986 (when vat was 15% I note!). This clearly states that 'cylinders remain at all times the property of Calor Gas Limited an d must only be used in accordance with the T&C overleaf' - which says that 'They must not be sold, hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged (!), lent or abandoned etc.... The Customer will retain absolute possession and control of every cylinder in his charge..etc.

A later agreement from 2006 is worded differently but essentially says the same thing, although this time 'the agreement remains in force for 50 (fifty) years.

 

[saint-spoon]

This forum is about sharing best practice which should never be an illegal act.

Yes of course, and the MODs are completely correct for advocating law abidance at all times.

...and now that we have all read this thread and all know that it is in breach of the original contract and possibly a crime under the theft act 1968 to sell on bottles it should be easy for the CPS to provide proof of intent.

When I picked up my caravan from the dealer it came wit a starter pack, the toilet chemicals, a EHU lead, etcetera, and of course a propane gas cylinder. I was never asked, nor did I sign a contract for that cylinder although the paperwork was provided in my caravan paperwork pack (I checked last night). I wonder how many other caravanners are in the same position as me, being in possession of a dealer supplied cylinder that could be construed as being stolen goods?

 

[Gabsgrandad]

For Gagakev!

 

[KeefySher]

...and now that we have all read this thread and all know that it is in breach of the original contract and possibly a crime under the theft act 1968 to sell on bottles it should be easy for the CPS to provide proof of intent.

The original bottle in my case was years before the 1968 theft act :evil: :evil: and it was never sold nor applicable to all the other terms in the various Calor agreements mentioned herein this thread.

Are some posters on here the 'contestants' on Caravanner of the Year as shown on BBC2, the ones separate from reality :evil: :evil:

Perhaps there should be an amnesty on bottles for caravanners, campers, motorhomes, builders, plumbers, odd job men, gardeners, pubs, old ladies with portable gas heaters, candlestick makers, travellers, tinkers, tailors, soldiers, sailors and any other criminals not possessing an agreement :evil: :evil:

Who would have thought embarking on a hobby as innocent as caravanning would have led me to the arms of hardened criminals who deal in illegal activities such as possessing gas bottles without an agreement. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: shock horror. What has the world come to? :evil: :evil:

Have the law abiding agreement carrying bottle custodians actually had cause to present the agreement at change over time at each and every occasion and outlet? Do those self same holders of agreements report the non checking of agreements at each and every occasion if not having to produce the agreement? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that mumbo jumbo :evil: :evil:

Clearly, the owners of the bottles don't give a stuff, so why would anyone? :evil: :evil:

So that's 2 threads to while away the time between trips out. New topic to have a laff about please

 

[Parksy]

This is another noseweight gauge thread, isn't it?

Yup :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: .

as with all these chuck about threads, someone asked a question, someone answers with a open can of worms and here we go again, however in the real world nobody gives a toss [bit like the nose weight saga], least of all Calor, if they did you would have to produce a valid contract certificate in order to obtain a new [refilled] cylinder AND would also instruct their suppliers to with hold any rogue cylinders presented for exchange, instead they even dissuade a genuine user for returning a bottle into the supply chain because they have no agreement to hand. which of course means that the holder has to find alternative methods of disposal.
one also assumes that because the contract has a sliding scale to zero, in the value of the returned bottle to Calor, it accepts that a bottle hire contract reduces in value to nothing after a number years, as the contract is never renewed.

as some will say it may be illegal to obtain a bottle without a contract from Calor but in practice a bottle is just a bottle and one pays for the contents only. that is why any recycling centre will have a compound full of red and blue, also yellow, green and orange bottles, as it is the only way one can dispose of them, so this leads to the crux of the question, what is the difference between passing on a bottle to the council run centre and a friend who wants it,
"nothing".. anything else is just complicated legal jargon, [bit like the nose weight issue].

:lol: :lol: :lol: I've got the popcorn, this one could run and run :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edit: I meant to add, we've got the calor paperwork for both of our bottles somewhere, but the original butane have been swapped at a dealers for propane since then. Other suppliers don't seem to have any such contract in place, some small newsagents in our area sell lpg and charge around £15 deposit for the first bottle, a mate of mine uses them.

 

[Gagakev]

For Gagakev!

Gee...thats a bit harsh!!!.....................Oh well at least it wasnt RED :lol:

 

[Gagakev]

This is another noseweight gauge thread, isn't it?

Yup :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: .

[

:lol: :lol: :lol: I've got the popcorn, this one could run and run :lol: :lol: :lol:

Think you could be wrong just for once Parksy....

When every ones gas runs out it will fizzle away :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Hutch]

I sent this question, to Calor gas this afternoon,
Details of your enquiry.
I have two calorlite gas bottles for my caravan, one which came with the van, no contract agreement and another which I bought but cannot find the agreement, what should I do about exchanging empty bottles for full ones. Thank you
And This is the reply.
Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your online enquiry.
Not having the paperwork isn’t so much of a problem when you are refilling the gas, as the supplier will take your empty bottles and swap for filled bottles.
The only disadvantage for yourself of not having the paperwork is you will not be able to return the gas bottles for a part financial refund.

Kind Regards

Tom Hopkins

Calor Gas Ltd.

End of thread maybe. oh yes I do have the aggrement, one only for three bottles.

 

[Damian]

Why should that posting end the thread.
Your enquiry had NOTHING in it about selling cylinders, and exchanging them was never in question.

What I find interesting is that people seem to think it is no problem to ignore T&C's which they think do not apply to them, or through ignorance, or just to "prove a point", then resort to trying to belittle posters who post otherwise, outlining the T&C's and possible consequences of ignoring them.

I wonder if these same people would be as happy to ignore the T&C's relating to buying new items which have faults and the now familiar cry "Sale of Goods Act" and "Not Fit for Purpose" when they go wrong and the manufacturer refuses their claim or those who buy from a dealer miles from home then moan because a local dealer will not play ball and repair their item to save them going miles back to the original supplier??????????????