Legality of selling surplus gas bottles

[RayS]

Anyone help me with this ?

I want to dispose of a couple of surplus gs bottles (Calor) but reading their website it would appear I don't actually own them so may not be able to sell ?

There is some sort of return agreement but the refund is based on age. It is not lear whether this is the age of the particular bottles concerned or the age of the original agreement - I suspect the latter as this would be most advantageous to Calor.

How does the idea of selling the gas they contain and giving the surrounding cylinder away fit with the law - that way Calor retain ownership, someone gets some cheap gas and I'm happy

 

[carper2]

I have quite often seen sold at car boot sales.

Les

 

[Dustydog]

Ray
our local waste disposal site take them foc.

 

[Damian]

Calor gas cylinders ALWAYS belong to Calor and if not wanted any more should be returned to a Calor stockist.
It is illegal to sell them yourself.

 

[Keefanmaxx]

I contacted Calor when I brought the caravan as we needed a larger cylinder than the 2.9 kg one that we used when camping and wanted to change our agreement as they indicated we could do so.
The initial agreement you sign with them to effectively 'rent' a cylinder has a decreasing return value over a number of years. As it happened, my refund based on the length of time I'd had the cylinder was £0, and was therefore advised to take out a new agreement and return the unwanted cylinder to a stockist.

As it happens, we kept the smaller cylinder to use with the BBQ and have a single 6KG cylinder for the van (no luxury of external BBQ point!!)

On the legal side, the cylinders are classed as a pressure vessel and must therefore be subject to a periodic test and inspection to confirm the integrity of the cylinder itself and the ability to withstand pressure as the gas is pumped in at high pressure which causes it to change to a liquid state. The cylinders are stamped with specific information regarding net and gross weight, year of manufacture and should have last test date on them (please don't quote me here!)

Having had the experience of seeing a number of cylinders fail in a fire and the consequential aftermath, I would advise anyone to avoid buying a cylinder from anywhere other than an authorised stockist so there is confidence n the product.

I hope this is of use to some-one!! :cheer:

 

[Hutch]

Give every thing away and ask for a donation to to your fav charity. . Lots of bottles on sale on E baty etc. . I don't think HMRC are checking on folk. Sell them, and give a letter saying they are the the new Userers.

 

[Damian]

Give every thing away and ask for a donation to to your fav charity. . Lots of bottles on sale on E baty etc. . I don't think HMRC are checking on folk. Sell them, and give a letter saying they are the the new Userers.

The original question was whether or not a user could sell them, the answer to which is NO, as the individual is NOT the legal owner, but simply a customer renting the cylinder, which will always be the property of Calor.

It does not matter if HMRC is or is not checking, it is still illegal to sell them, and as for the notion of giving a new "owner" a letter, that is ridiculous and totally pointless and worthless as the cylinder STILL belongs to Calor.

Too post such rubbish is wrong and NOT something this site would ever endorse.

 

[Hutch]

Damian, I understand, but REAL , life is out here, when people sell items , do they declare on their tax returns. . A lot of folk pass on items. But Calor rip us off on their contracts.

 

[Keefanmaxx]

The initial cost of the cylinder is high, but after that you're only paying for the gas. The cylinder you 'rent' will have been through Calors test regime and will therefore, be safe.

The fact that someone sells one on E-bay or other well know auction sites, does or doesn't pay their dues to HMRC is irrelevant to me. If I'm going to connect a gas cylinder to my van, I want an assurance it's safe.
Further to my other post, there is a 'life' for the cylinders, at the end of which they are destroyed. Buying from A.N. Other to save a few pounds could mean you buy a cylinder which technically, should not be in circulation.

Question - What price to you put on safety?

 

[Damian]

Damian, I understand, but REAL , life is out here, when people sell items , do they declare on their tax returns. . A lot of folk pass on items. But Calor rip us off on their contracts.

Sorry but you cannot win this argument.

It does not matter whether other people are selling the cylinders, they simply are NOT entitled to do so as they are NOT their property to dispose of in such a way.
As for people buying them, well, if they are stupid enough to risk their lives and that of their family, so be it, but don't complain when it bites them.

As for Calor "ripping us off on their contracts", NO, they are NOT.
If you don't want to enter into an agreement with them you are NOT forced to, you can use another supplier, so it is with FULL knowledge that you enter into the agreement, part of which is that the cylinder is on a RENTAL basis.

What on earth has your Tax return got to do with the argument, ,,,,,, NOTHING. and is irrelevant.

To follow your "logic", it would be OK for me to hire a JCB to dig some holes then when finished with it, sell it on EBay..............I don't think so !!!!!!

 

[Hutch]

You take the bottle back to the dealer, they do not ask for your , registrraion, etc. Calor as owner are responsible for th3 safety of the bottles.

 

[Damian]

You take the bottle back to the dealer, they do not ask for your , registrraion, etc. Calor as owner are responsible for th3 safety of the bottles.

And the point is??????????????????????????????

At least you have admitted that Calor are the OWNERS of the cylinders:

Quote " Calor as owner are responsible for th3 safety of the bottles."

 

[Keefanmaxx]

You take the bottle back to the dealer, they do not ask for your , registrraion, etc. Calor as owner are responsible for the safety of the bottles.

And that is exactly my point.
You take the cylinder back, Calor check it, refill and put back into circulation.

 

[Gagakev]

Does anyone actually have an agreement/registration with calor. I for one dont, should I have one?
When I bought my first van it came with two butane bottles, traded that one in with a dealer and asked him to change the van to propane, which he did and no paperwork was produced.
Just asking a question.

 

[Damian]

Yes, I do have agreement paperwork for each of my cylinders.

 

[Mel]

Damian, is it legal to give them away, if so does the new keeper then effectively become the new renter from calor. Friend of mine packed in caravanning and gave me a near full cylinder.
Mel

 

[Damian]

Hi Mel,
Strictly speaking NO, it is not legal to give them away as they do not belong to anyone but Calor.
They should be returned to a Calor stockist as the agreement stipulates.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Well argued and correct Damian.

 

[DrZhivago]

it is not legal to give them away as they do not belong to anyone but Calor

So you cannot give them away as they are not yours to give. Fair enough, but that is semantics. OTOH, if they remain in Calor ownership whatever happens, it follows that it will not make any legal difference who happens to be using them (as long as they are a resposible person).

I have inherited Calor bottles both with a house and with a caravan and thought nothing of it till now. I have certainly not been asked to show - shall we say "keepership" - paperwork when I have had them exchanged for refills. In fact of course I have then received a different bottle so the original paperwork would have died a death anyway, and at that point a Calor agent has entrusted me with keeping a Calor-owned bottle, presumably being satisfied with my apparent sanity and general air of competence.

It would be interesting to see what a court of law would make of this. After the first refill, as it will have been their own agent who has issued me with a bottle, I do not think Calor would have a leg to stand on if they wished to complain about it ; and I do not believe they would.

 

[Hutch]

Dr. Z, I am with you, I recently changed a Blue 15 kg for a 13 kg propane, the dealer doesnt ask for details. So whats the problem of changing ownership, by buying on websites etc. If the dealers do not ask. As I have mentioned before , they could isuse a swipe card to prove you own the cylinder, Calor are not bothered. . So just do your own thing.
Lets get back to nose weights.

 

[Beehpee]

From my experience it seems that usually gas bottles that are offered for sale on websites or at council tips are more often than not empty, people will buy them empty simply to avoid paying the "rental" cost, empty bottles can be picked up for free often or for as little as £5 which is far less than the rental, the empty is then exchanged at calor stockist for a full one and the empty then go's back in to curculation via calor where it is checked and if safe then refilled to go back on its normal sale and return route, I can see the logic of not buying a full or part full bottle as you would have no idea of how the bottle had been abused and therefore how safe or otherwise it is, an empty one I've no problem with at all and buying one puts it back in the system rather than it ending up in landfill causing more pollution, I did once buy a gas bottle with an agreement back in the dark ages, where that agreement now is who knows, it doesn't matter though as all I need is an empty to exchange, through various means I've probably 'acquired' numerous empties over the last 30 odd years from one source or another including picking one up in a layby after the travellers had left and they abandoned it,ok it might not be legal to the letter of the law but does anyone care, no I doubt very much they do or calor themselves would be posing as purchasers on websites and going to council tips and collecting all of the property that legally belongs to them for free.

BP

 

[Beehpee]

Another thought, if calor wanted to they could simply tell eBay to stop selling them as its illegal to do so.

BP

 

[Dustydog]

Reality or Legality

 

[Beehpee]

This topic has really peaked my interest, I consider myself to be a relatively law abiding person, I've reached the age of almost 61 without ever having been charged with any offence ( other than a speeding ticket) the law is black and white, it's either legal or not, end of, fortunately life is not, in many ways, black and White, should I ever have to appear in court charged with buying or selling a calor bottle I think it best I ask for numerous other criminal acts to be dealt with at the same time so as to get it all out of the way, things like regularly buying tobacco brought in by friends who have been overseas, like probably speeding in the car pretty much most days of the week due to driving around 1000 miles per week, like not being adverse to buying the occasional DVDs off the guy in the local hostelry who go's by the name of video Bob, like buying fake clothing off markets that are 1/4 of the price of the genuine article but who cares, like being asked to do a foreigner whilst working on someone's caravan for cash in hand, I could go on and on, if everyone were to be 100% truthful I doubt there would be many who hadn't at some point broken the law, in the real world that's how it is, you follow the straight and very narrow path of life occasionally stepping off, for me it's all about degrees, how far you step over the line, the law has to be black and white, for myself I'm more than happy to use my own judgement as to how far over that line I'm prepared to step, it's proved ok for nearly 61 years so I think I might just carry on being a criminal if that's what I am.

BP

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Many years ago we (CC Lincs. Centre) used to run a fund raising auction, and many gas bottles were entered for auction. As we did not wish to do anything illegal with regards "selling" these bottles, research was done and what we found out was that you could not legally sell the bottles, however you could sell the gas in them! - And this used to be carefully made known before selling. you were only buying the gas --- You just sometimes paid 'dear' for the gas you got in the bottle! -- However you did get a cheap rental on a gas container!