Ludicrous situation or is it me?

[BernardinTring]

Aimed please at owners of the current style of Nissan X-Trail. One in particular contributor John G Watson who is;/was an X-Trail owner.

In process of purchase of new X-Trail having owned two earlier versions., in fact awaiting delivery. Was made aware by Salesman that the spare wheel of current model was a sixteen inch on a steel rim and whilst suitable for limited solo driving, not suitable for towing. No mention was made of any other choice or option.

At recent NEC raise this on the Nissan stand being the official partner supplying the tow vehicles. as it seemed at odds with the principle of a vehicle largely used for towing to have this 'limitation.Told a normal full size wheel was available and would fit the tyre well.

Raised with the Dealer on Friday, no information was known about this possability, raised with Nissan Helpline rubbish advice to go back to the Dealer for the answer. Solution finally to confirm a 'fit' in the existing tyre well was to jack up an X-Trail, take off a wheel and see if it physically fitted in the tyre well. Why is this information not so readily available anywhere?

According to the pictures sent it does.

Now the rub. Two choices if this avenue is to be followed through. Option one a steel rimmed full size tyre at £338 or an alloy with a full size tyre at a staggering £588.

Remember not taken delivery as yet and thought it would be the case that these additional costs would be offset by taking back the temporary wheel, giving an allowance for this, meaning only the net difference in cash terms would have to be paid.

Guess what, No, the temporary spare steel sixteen inch wheel came FREE with the vehicle, there would be no refund and the full amount would be required to be paid. What the hell do Nissan and its Dealers expect you to do with a sixth unwanted temporary tyre. This really is boardering on extortion and blackmail.

Seems vehicle being sold with a tow bar fitted and supplied by a main Nissan dealership and a temporary wheel not suitable for towing, makes the vehicles not fit for purpose. Or am I being uncharitable?

A ludicrous situation or is it me? Do feel free to express your views, no offence taken.

Unless I am advised otherwise battle will recommence on Monday.

Many thanks..
Bernard

 

[Damian]

It is a common problem.
Most, if not all, vehicles now have space saver spares, normally on steel rims to save weight,or no spare but a can of tyre repair gunk , but the spare is ONLY to get you to the nearest tyre depot at reduced speed.
That does NOT mean dropping the caravan off first!

 

[otherclive]

A sorry tale but if a space saver can take the full vehicle load I cannot see why it cannot be used for towing. After all a couple with a van probably put less load on the car than does a family with roof box and bikes. If a full size wheel fits the well then you can buy steel wheels for £55-60 plus tyre all you need to know is diameter, offset and pcd of the bolts. Volvo use space saver and a full size will not fit in the well, but the space saver is okay for towing use at 50 mph for 50 miles and even though its overall diameter is less than the OEM fit the Haldex fwd system is designed to cope with this difference.

 

[Surfer]

Blame the EU and their stupid emissions policies all in the name of save the planet due to global warming! We have walked away from many vehicles without a spare wheel. I was under the impression that the nissan Xtrail was supposed to be a 4 x 4? Doubt if the current spare would be much help if off roading never mind on the road!

 

[BernardinTring]

Many thanks for views express but to Damian-Moderator, can you just clarify a bit further for me?
I'm being a bit thick this morning, its reasonably early on a Sunday, the weather is damp and misty and cannot think too clearly.
Do I assume from the final line that you are suggesting that if there is a puncture, the temporary tyre is put on and then at a reduced speed STILL with the caravan attached you find a garage to either repair or replace the full size alloy tyre. Despite the wording on the tyre that it should not be used for towing; confused, I am. Can you clarify and what are your views if say the RAC were involved in the changing of the wheel; acceptance of your view or rejection based on wording on tyre?
In addition on this question of emissions, which again I do not understand fully, if I do opt for the full size alloy and take out the temporary tyre, there will be a permanent increae in weight whether towing or solo.
I assume that forever this will have an adverse effect on the manufactuers projected fuel consumption of the vehicle? Any idea by how much.
Thinking if this is the case as no refund on the temporary steel and I have to retain it, rather labourious I admit but when out with the van do I swap the two wheels and only carry the full size when actually towing? Suffering only the reduction in consuption of fuel during the period I am actually using the caravan?
I'm sorry that it is a bit, belt, bracers and piece if string approach, but I don't want to get stranded in the middle of no where and whilst not had a puncture in nine years of X-Trail ownership, you know what Sods Law is!!
Many thanks.
Bernard

 

[Gybe]

As annoying and stupid as these present day spare wheel issues may be. There seems to be 3 issues that you have to address
1. Do you really want an X-Trail
2. Does a full size spare fit the spare storage well
3 Do you want to spend nearly £600 extra with Nissan.

At the moment there is a 16" X-Trail steel spare on ebay with a £25 bid. Good condition X-trail alloys come up for sale there and elsewhere. Or a breaker somewhere will surely have one You can buy a new pretty X-Trail suitable alloy for under £100 and a tyre for around £90. It will not look anymore out of place than the black steel job should you need to use it.
Why get worked up and mess around with idiots of the motor trade? Sort the issue yourself and save £400.
Numerous suitable non standard alloys may not be much heavier than the steel spacesaver.

 

[Damian]

Hi Bernard,
The problem with spare wheels, as you have found, is that the manufacturers do not specifically build cars to tow caravans, they do not leave the factory with tow bars fitted and even though you are having a bar fitted by the dealer, it is probable a Witter or similar which they will have sourced from a local outlet.

Back to wheels, and in your case the standard spare specifically states that it is NOT for towing, therefore should you have the misfortune to have to use it,and you were towing a caravan with it in use and something happened to cause an accident, then I am pretty certain that not only would your Insurance Company take huge steps backwards and refuse to compensate , but the Police would almost certainly prosecute for using the vehicle knowing that it had an unsuitable wheel and tyre fitted to it.

My understandig of the use of such spares is , from my own experience in th epast, that the idea is that you leave the caravan where it is, go to the nearest tyre depot and get a repair on the damaged tyre and return to collect the van with new wheel fitted.

In theory,great if everything works out ok.

 

[Mike_S]

I had a similar problem when I bought my Seat Alhambra 6 months ago. Unlike my previous car (Mazda 5) which came with a "space-saver" (which I had to use on a couple of occasions, neither towing), the Seat comes with "self-sealing" tyres. These, apparently, will seal around an object up to 6mm dia. No b***** good if the tyre is wrecked by a pothole as happened to me with the Mazda.
Along with towbar and electrics, I negotiated a "free" full-size spare and tyre which has to travel in the back of the car. My dealer was less pleased when he found out the only available spare was a matching alloy with self-sealing tyre. I was less pleased when I got home and found the car didn't have a jack. Can't win 'em all!!
Mike

 

[JohnGriffiths]

A similar thread came up on the X-Trail owners forum, and I think I copied some of it onto here. Although the handbook says not to tow with the space saving spare, further enquires to the technical department at Nissan resulted in them issuing a letter saying there was no problem in using the space saver when towing. I also had an e-mail summarising as follows:-
"Having liaised with our Technical Department, I can confirm that your vehicle was supplied with equipment to the correct specification, and that the spare wheel supplied is a “temporary” in so much as it is designed to be a short-term measure to enable the vehicle to be driven to a garage, rather than for prolonged use. It is a full size steel wheel with the same rolling circumference as the factory fitted wheels supplied with your vehicle.
Please be assured that your vehicle is suitable for use with the equipment supplied and it meets European safety legislation. I can also advise that it has been confirmed by the Nissan Technical Support Team that your vehicle is suitable to tow using the spare wheel, providing the recommendations outlined within the vehicle manual / handbook are adhered to."

I know this may not be enough for some, and I have not actually had the misfortune to use the spare, or try to persuade an AA man to put it on, but armed with a copy of the letter in my handbook I feel a little better prepared.

 

[JonnyG]

Never has it crossed my mind that a vehicle that can tow, could not tow with a legally supplied space saver, under the same terms and conditions as a space saver can be used on the vehicle solo. if a space saver is fitted surely it has to comply with a certain tyre load index, which means covering the load of 4 persons and luggauge,and not just a driver, so a caravan on the back makes no difference what so ever.as long as the total weight on the car does not exceed the tyre load index, and yrs that last bit could be said better but
the gest of it should make sense.....
On this issue dont look to the car sales rep or indeed Eu regs on emmissions!? but on the fact that the vehicle manufacturer has to make a car compliant with european legistration.

 

[Martin24]

Damien, Not all cars come with space savers, squirty gunk, or steel alternatives. I have a nice full size alloy spare, included in the price of the vehicle.

I suppose if you don't like what Datsun are saying you walk away and find an alternative.

 

[Damian]

Quote " Damien, Not all cars come with space savers, squirty gunk, or steel alternatives. I have a nice full size alloy spare, included in the price of the vehicle."

So has my Kia, which is just one reason I bought it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We're back to an old topic, with perhaps a hint of new angle.

However the advice has not changed:-

You must be guided by the instructions the vehicle/tyre manufacture supplies regarding the use of the spare wheel on YOUR VEHICLE.

Do not assume that all models have the same limitations for use.

In the event you don't have access to the specific advice for your vehicle, then it is sensible (and safest) to assume three basic things:-

1. you must not tow, and
2. you must keep your speed down (usually below 50 mph)
3. You must make your way directly to the nearest tyre repair/replacement depot.

I suggest you make the provision of a fully capable spare wheel part of your purchase contract by giving the dealer a letter to that effect which they must acknowledge when you place the order. If they then fail to do so they are in breech of contract.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hang on a minute, it seems everyone is assuming that the spare would only need to be used if you need it between the hrs of 9am to 5pm when quickfit is open and you are conviently near enough to get there without the van on the back,
so what happens if you get a punture or blowout with the van on the back in the middle of the night 200miles from home, eh!! unhook the van leave it at the side of the road or hard shoulder go find a hotel for the night get a new tyre the next morning and go back hoping the van is still there and contains all your possesions, goodluck.
If I were you bernard I would find out if the spare you have will fit the new one then change them over and carry a full size spare at no cost, let the dealer have the spacesaver, with your old Xtrail !!!!

 

[Gybe]

Crossing with the other thread about punctures. My point exactly Colin In the wee hours miles from home do you want to be moving again in minutes towards your destination or dithering around waiting to be bailed out or crawling towars home on a space saver.
Even if you get to a tyre fitters there is no guarantee that they'll have the tyre you need. If you venture across the channel you may find like I have that there is even less chance of the tyre you need being in stock especially with a 4x4 type of car.
If you are in France you'll proabbly find you get to the tyre fitters just as they close for a two hour lunch break and only find out when they come back that they haven't got the correct tyre

. Been there and got the Tee shirt.

 

[Steve L]

My X type jag estate has a skinny spare wheel, stored in a full size wheel well under the boot floor.
The stupidity of the EU regs never ceases to amuse me. They haven't thought about greenhouse gasses or the carbon footprint when they came up with the bright idea of skinny spare wheels or even more illogical, the aerosol spare wheel in a can kits that come with many modern cars.
First off the pucture kit in a can is only designed for a nail in the tyre puncture, and unbelievably most stipulate to leave the nail in the tyre to plug the hole. This still leaves the car in an unsafe state as the tyre could blowout and cause an accident. Furthermore, you have to be pretty competent to be able to use it effectively. If you manage the temorary repair, you then need to find a tyre depot. Most tyre depots will not clean out the gunk and repair your tyre. So you then have to buy a new tyre even though your old tyre might be perfectly servicable if it was repaired.

What generally happens is that, you call out a mobile tyre van and they do a roadside repair as you haven't been successfull in using the puncture can kit. This then doubles the carbon footprint!! By having to of caused another vehicle to emit carbon to the atmosphere.

I have a cheaper and greener solution. Go to a vehicle breaker and buy a recycled full size wheel with a good tyre already fitted. That way you contribute to recycling and then by having a proper spare wheel you also save the carbon footprint of the mobile tyre van too.

I have a fullsize spare that fits the wheel well in the boot of my jag, for when I'm towing. I swap that for the skinny spare when we are driving solo at home. This does my bit for saving a thimble of fuel to cut the carbon down, and also when I'm towing, I can swap my wheel for a fullsize spare and have no restriction on either speed or the distance I can go before I must get the punctured tyre repaired. Also at £15 a puncture repair is much cheaper than a £125 new fullsize tyre or £160 for a new skinny spare tyre as they can only be used for 50 miles before renewal.
I on the other hand, have only had two instances where I have needed to use a spare wheel in 36 years of driving. But having said that, I was very glad to have a spare wheel and the know how of how to change a wheel.

 

[JonnyG]

the AA states...
you are towing a caravan or trailer and get a puncture then it is generally OK for a space-saver spare to be fitted to any axle on the car. check the handbook though as there might be vehicle-specific advice.
With the skinny-spare fitted you must drive straight to a tyre specialist for a repair/replacement rather than attempt a long journey.

(25 April 2012
This is what the AA says on thier website, do wish someone like lutz knew what the EU directive was concerning fit for purpose as you can see they the AA use the term "generally" which seems to differ slightly in the approach of others advice but again do go on to say check specific detail for each individual vehicle. i say it makes common sence that it to has to be fit for purpose . the load index on my space saver is 775kg thats for a mondeo and cannot see any wording on the tyre that says unfit for use of towing.
although frankly as the load index is 775kg then cannot see how or why even if the words "do not tow" were written on how or why that would matter
as the space saver has an identical load index to my other tyres.
as surely the load index is the most important bit of infor and it is legal to tow with a space saver

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Sorry for the delay in replying but we were away last week
I bought a second hand alloy off a Columbia XT for about £140 and it fitted in the spare wheel well never to be needed in 2 years!
I now have the Ford Kuga and that had a mini spare now replaced with a full size one off ebay but in this case the boot floor needed raising to accomodate it

 

[otherclive]

Whilst it is true that the puncture sealant kits can only be used for punctures in the main tread body they do allow you to get going again and can be used at up to 50 mph for up to 200 miles according to Continentals website. Leaving the offending nail in is not an issue (assuming you can find it on a dark night) as if it did come out, unlikely, the tyre sealant acts almost instantaneously to seal the hole. Also it's a bit of a misnomer that you cannot repair a tyre when sealant has been used as again Continental have full information distributed to the trade on how to deal with it. It's on their website too. I carry a Continental kit as my first line of defence before having to use the space saver which can be used for towing. Both our cars have space savers and Continental kits in the boot. They can be bought on eBay from people who have bought a wheel rather than rely on a sealant kit as the sole provision.

 

[otherclive]

Sorry for the delay in replying but we were away last week
I bought a second hand alloy off a Columbia XT for about £140 and it fitted in the spare wheel well never to be needed in 2 years!
I now have the Ford Kuga and that had a mini spare now replaced with a full size one off ebay but in this case the boot floor needed raising to accomodate it

John

john
i looked at doing the same for the xc70 but was thwarted by the fact that the space saver is 1 inch less on diameter than a full size wheel so a full size spare wheel not sit in the well. Did look at dropping the pressure on a full size spare to squeeze it into the well but it risked being so low it would have come off the rim even if it could have been squeezed in, which is doubtful. Perhaps one answer is for caravan payloads to increase to take the cars full size spare!!!!!

 

[Dustydog]

There's something very wrong here.

Nissan regularly advertise in the caravan press the towing virtues of the X Trail. Say no more.

 

[Dustydog]

There's something very wrong here.

Nissan regularly advertise in the caravan press boasting the towing virtues of the X Trail. Say no more.

 

[hortimech]

john
i looked at doing the same for the xc70 but was thwarted by the fact that the space saver is 1 inch less on diameter than a full size wheel so a full size spare wheel not sit in the well. Did look at dropping the pressure on a full size spare to squeeze it into the well but it risked being so low it would have come off the rim even if it could have been squeezed in, which is doubtful. Perhaps one answer is for caravan payloads to increase to take the cars full size spare!!!!!

I am lost here, how can the space saver wheel be smaller in diameter than a std wheel? This would be bad enough on a single axle drive vehicle but on a four wheel drive, you are likely to get wind up of the diff of which ever axle you fit it it too. This would be transferred to the cars drive train, or to put it another way, one of the wheels would turn at a different speed to the rest, not a good idea!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

A space saver wheel may have a smaller diameter metal part to the wheel but the tyre will have more rubber, thus the rolling circumference of the tyre will be the same, and will turn at the same speed as the others. Have you noticed how ridiculous the large wheel look on cars, all wheel and virtually no rubber. It must feel very bumpy whilst riding in the car, or the suspension is taking a hammering.

 

[otherclive]

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?p=1274313
this link shows an XC60 space saver against the normal road wheel.....scary eh? And this was a Towcar of the Year too. Volvo went away from even offering space savers as an option but I understand 2013 cars will offer them as an option but don't bank on the full road wheel fitting in the stowage vacated by the space saver.

The good news is that a recovery company did a test on a space saver and ran it for 1000 miles without any problems. Which if you look at it logically you wouldn't expect it to crash out after 50 miles given that normal tyres last 10 k on the front under higher speeds Harder braking so I'd be happy to run further than 50 miles if required albeit checking its state regularly. But with differing diameters I'd think twice so as not to risk the AWD Haldex system.