I don't think anyone here has made a judgement on what has happened to Maddie, merely speculation. nor has anyone passed judgement on the parents - other than that it is a FACT that the parents left 3 young children on their own in an apartment in a foreign country, so surely we are allowed to comment on that? otherwise what is the point of having a forum in the first place???
I haven't been following the story that much but it is well known that the children were alone. That is something we never did with our three.
I just hope she's found alive and unharmed. If they do catch the perpetrators I'm sure they will get all the help from the state like counselling and a Q.C. will be allotted to them out of the public purse, their human rights will then be protected and they will be able to fit back into society after serving a community order.
Oh wait, I forgot, this happened in Portugual where I hope they haven't signed up to this human rights charter. There is still hope then that the b*******s will get their just desserts :O)
I just hope she's found alive and unharmed. If they do catch the perpetrators I'm sure they will get all the help from the state like counselling and a Q.C. will be allotted to them out of the public purse, their human rights will then be protected and they will be able to fit back into society after serving a community order.
Oh wait, I forgot, this happened in Portugual where I hope they haven't signed up to this human rights charter. There is still hope then that the b*******s will get their just desserts :O)
" However I have very little respect for the parents as I am of the opinion that they do not desrve children and they should be prosecuted for neglect ".
Bet you would have respect if you needed a cardiologist, and he is the one available. Hindsight is real brilliant thing. Well I know of a few couples who have done the same thing, and I also would wager most people on the Forum do as well.
If the opening paragraph is not a judgement I don't know what is
Val & Frank
Bet you would have respect if you needed a cardiologist, and he is the one available. Hindsight is real brilliant thing. Well I know of a few couples who have done the same thing, and I also would wager most people on the Forum do as well.
If the opening paragraph is not a judgement I don't know what is
Val & Frank
whatever Colins opinion is, it is not necessarily representative of the forum as a whole.
as a current news story and an emotive subject it is a valid topic for the forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions, so long as none of these break the Forum Etiquette.
finally, I think it is obvious from most of the comments that the majority of forum members WOULD NOT leave their children alone - my oldest is 16 and we have only just started leaving him alone. Mark
as a current news story and an emotive subject it is a valid topic for the forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions, so long as none of these break the Forum Etiquette.
finally, I think it is obvious from most of the comments that the majority of forum members WOULD NOT leave their children alone - my oldest is 16 and we have only just started leaving him alone. Mark
An interesting subject, with no "right" answer. It has been discussed at work, and those without children were the most condemning of the McCanns. They tended to say that children should never be left "alone". If only life were that simple.
1. My children walked to school on their own from the age of 9 or 10 - whenever they were comfortable with it. They usually met up with friends on the way.
2. We let ours (girls 14 and 11, the 17 year old stays at home now) explore foreign campsites and even the town if it's only a mile or so away.
3. No 2 daughter is doing Duke of Edinburgh Silver this weekend, camping in the sticks with other girls.
4. We have on occasions gone to another tent or van for evening drinks - leaving the girls on their own.
5. From the age of 6 or 7 our girls have gone to campsite toilet blocks on their own.
All of the above involve an element of risk, but without an abductor or perv in the equation children will generally remain safe. I know a family where the children have NEVER been anywhere (apart from school etc of course) without a parent or grandparent. The girl is nearly 14, and wonders why she isn't allowed to go shopping or to the cinema or swimming with her friends.
Note that I have not sought to justify my current and past decisions, and nor have I criticized the family referred to. That's because it's personal, and only the parents can weigh up the risks and make a decision. Life is a risk, and if you try to address and mitigate every single risk however large or small then you won't have much of a life left.
1. My children walked to school on their own from the age of 9 or 10 - whenever they were comfortable with it. They usually met up with friends on the way.
2. We let ours (girls 14 and 11, the 17 year old stays at home now) explore foreign campsites and even the town if it's only a mile or so away.
3. No 2 daughter is doing Duke of Edinburgh Silver this weekend, camping in the sticks with other girls.
4. We have on occasions gone to another tent or van for evening drinks - leaving the girls on their own.
5. From the age of 6 or 7 our girls have gone to campsite toilet blocks on their own.
All of the above involve an element of risk, but without an abductor or perv in the equation children will generally remain safe. I know a family where the children have NEVER been anywhere (apart from school etc of course) without a parent or grandparent. The girl is nearly 14, and wonders why she isn't allowed to go shopping or to the cinema or swimming with her friends.
Note that I have not sought to justify my current and past decisions, and nor have I criticized the family referred to. That's because it's personal, and only the parents can weigh up the risks and make a decision. Life is a risk, and if you try to address and mitigate every single risk however large or small then you won't have much of a life left.
I am afraid this is the society we live in now, with abductors,pervs. Our children and grandchildren are not safe to play out anymore without us parents worrying.
What has gone wrong? Liz
What has gone wrong? Liz
Brave fart " finally, I think it is obvious from most of the comments that the majority of forum members WOULD NOT leave their children alone"
I think it's about 18 post's on this subject, I don't think 18 is a majority, you have spun this more like Teflon Toni would.
Pleased to see you did conceed Colins post was an opinion/judgement, because I never mentioned Colins post.
Hands up who sit in the awning until 10/11 pm drinking beer/wine with the vans windows open on a hot summer evening??? That's all that's required for someone to lift a child if someone was so inclined. Difficult situation to judge.
Val & Frank
I think it's about 18 post's on this subject, I don't think 18 is a majority, you have spun this more like Teflon Toni would.
Pleased to see you did conceed Colins post was an opinion/judgement, because I never mentioned Colins post.
Hands up who sit in the awning until 10/11 pm drinking beer/wine with the vans windows open on a hot summer evening??? That's all that's required for someone to lift a child if someone was so inclined. Difficult situation to judge.
Val & Frank
Liz,
am afraid this is the society we live in now, with abductors,pervs. Our children and grandchildren are not safe to play out anymore without us parents worrying.
What has gone wrong? Liz
This is so rare, it's not like it is going on all around us every day.
Mind you I never knew how wide spread being gay was, until I was about 50 years old. So maybe there is a lot more perves about than we realise.
Val & Frank
am afraid this is the society we live in now, with abductors,pervs. Our children and grandchildren are not safe to play out anymore without us parents worrying.
What has gone wrong? Liz
This is so rare, it's not like it is going on all around us every day.
Mind you I never knew how wide spread being gay was, until I was about 50 years old. So maybe there is a lot more perves about than we realise.
Val & Frank
Mel
Moderator
It remains an even sadder fact that children are are greater risk of abuse, physical or sexual, from a member of their own family than from a stranger.
Hi Frank, Rare you say, when I was a child non of this was happening nor you I expect, gay what was that!!!
So what has gone wrong? Liz
So what has gone wrong? Liz
Part of the problem is the speed of communication nowadays. Go back just 20 years and it took a while for news to spread. Now we demand (and the media supplies) a blow by blow account of everything that is going on.
Children were snatched, abused and murdered 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. It's just that the news wasn't so "in your face".
Children were snatched, abused and murdered 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. It's just that the news wasn't so "in your face".
Here's a question for you
Is this more a problem now? or do we just here about more of it because we educate people and have a "communications" culture.
I do not beleive for a minute that this is a new problem
Is this more a problem now? or do we just here about more of it because we educate people and have a "communications" culture.
I do not beleive for a minute that this is a new problem
Mel
Moderator
On the one hand I agree that the fabric of society is tearing around us. On the other, when I was a child Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were torturing children and burying their bodies on saddleworth moor. Also hundreds of children who were being abused in their own homes were not recognised because no-one believed that mothers, uncles, fathers or grandparents would sexually abuse their children. Unknown or unreported, I don't know.
This has been going on from the beginning of time abuse of children in their own home,orphanages ask the children brought up by nuns,its not new its just we are better informed thank god,and hopefully we can react quicker to save these poor kids
I agree there is a risk in any scenario but surely we do our best to limit that risk.
I run a business that has quite a high risk element both to me and the viewing public. With this in mind I do a risk assessment months before I do the job then again on arriving on site on the given evening and finally before a performance. All this in an attempt to limit the risk.
I agree a child could be taken through a caravan window even if you were present but in that situation the risks would be seen as minimal. Leave a child alone in a apartment room in a foreign country while you were 'hundreds' of metres away and only checking every half hour is not limiting that risk and surely in any given situation we as parents should limit that risk as much as possible.
I run a business that has quite a high risk element both to me and the viewing public. With this in mind I do a risk assessment months before I do the job then again on arriving on site on the given evening and finally before a performance. All this in an attempt to limit the risk.
I agree a child could be taken through a caravan window even if you were present but in that situation the risks would be seen as minimal. Leave a child alone in a apartment room in a foreign country while you were 'hundreds' of metres away and only checking every half hour is not limiting that risk and surely in any given situation we as parents should limit that risk as much as possible.
Hi Steve, I do beleive this is a new problem, ok I agree it has happened in the past but very very rare, as already stated, ie Hindley.
When I was a child and many others on this forum was your parents worried about you playing out scared of you being snatched etc,etc, the answer is NO.
So something has changed what and who? Liz
When I was a child and many others on this forum was your parents worried about you playing out scared of you being snatched etc,etc, the answer is NO.
So something has changed what and who? Liz
Liz
What you say is true. But, when we where kids, did our parents know about the possible chances? Its still millions to one that anything will happen. Was it any less back then? I doubt it. The difference is that our parents did not know the info we do.
Now, if you watch the news a lot, you will see loads of drug and murder issues in the USA. But, per head of population its safer than here.
What you say is true. But, when we where kids, did our parents know about the possible chances? Its still millions to one that anything will happen. Was it any less back then? I doubt it. The difference is that our parents did not know the info we do.
Now, if you watch the news a lot, you will see loads of drug and murder issues in the USA. But, per head of population its safer than here.
Mel " Myra Hindley and Ian Brady" I can't name any others though ???
Mary Bell was slightly different.
Val & Frank
Mary Bell was slightly different.
Val & Frank
Steve, Of course our parents would have known, every child that I have met my age and lived in different areas all played out, nobody has ever said their parents were worried about a child being snatched.
You hit the nail on the head other countries ie USA who cared back then. Liz
You hit the nail on the head other countries ie USA who cared back then. Liz
Frank my opening paragraph was aimed towards the little girl and the hopeful safe return. I was not in any way casting any form of opinion or judgement except for her safe return which I am sure very on else would endorse.
The second paragraph relates to the parents and their lack of parental care. It has been reported since I made the original posting that they had been doing this every evening since being in Portugal. I have expressed an opinion that I do not think they are fit to be parents with the care they have shown to their children, and it would appear that quite a few other contributers agree with me.
As far as requiring medical attention and the possibility of being treated by one of these parents I have never questioned their professional capabilities and there is a world of difference between their professional attitude and their personal parental care. I think it is very unwise of you to try and put me down by saying that would I question their professional approach as this point has NEVER been raised for the full time the little girl has gone missing. If I should require the service of a cardiologist I would not be in a position to question any persons professional capabilities because I am not in any way involved in medicine. The same would he be able to question my capabilities as a qualified building surveyor. I can assure you that when my children were young either my wife or self were with them at all times - we never left them on their own. The same now applies to our grandchildren - granddaughter 12 and grandson 10. They are coming away with us and we will be with them on site overlooking them playing/swimming or whatever - even going to the toilet/shower block. Obviously we wont actually go into the building with them but we will be outside waiting for them. They will have freedom to play, etc. but still within sight of us possibly from a distance but still within sight. We will not be standing over them at all times - they do need a certain amount of freedommand trust.
In conclusion, as previously pointed out to you, this is a forum whereby contributers are at liberty to make opinions on topics otherwise if we were all of the same opinion the world would be a sorry place to live. I am questioning your reply because it gives me the impression, not only on this topic, that should a contributer not agree with you then that contributer is wrong and you are right. We must agree with you or face the consequences.
The second paragraph relates to the parents and their lack of parental care. It has been reported since I made the original posting that they had been doing this every evening since being in Portugal. I have expressed an opinion that I do not think they are fit to be parents with the care they have shown to their children, and it would appear that quite a few other contributers agree with me.
As far as requiring medical attention and the possibility of being treated by one of these parents I have never questioned their professional capabilities and there is a world of difference between their professional attitude and their personal parental care. I think it is very unwise of you to try and put me down by saying that would I question their professional approach as this point has NEVER been raised for the full time the little girl has gone missing. If I should require the service of a cardiologist I would not be in a position to question any persons professional capabilities because I am not in any way involved in medicine. The same would he be able to question my capabilities as a qualified building surveyor. I can assure you that when my children were young either my wife or self were with them at all times - we never left them on their own. The same now applies to our grandchildren - granddaughter 12 and grandson 10. They are coming away with us and we will be with them on site overlooking them playing/swimming or whatever - even going to the toilet/shower block. Obviously we wont actually go into the building with them but we will be outside waiting for them. They will have freedom to play, etc. but still within sight of us possibly from a distance but still within sight. We will not be standing over them at all times - they do need a certain amount of freedommand trust.
In conclusion, as previously pointed out to you, this is a forum whereby contributers are at liberty to make opinions on topics otherwise if we were all of the same opinion the world would be a sorry place to live. I am questioning your reply because it gives me the impression, not only on this topic, that should a contributer not agree with you then that contributer is wrong and you are right. We must agree with you or face the consequences.
" However I have very little respect for the parents as I am of the opinion that they do not desrve children and they should be prosecuted for neglect ".
Colinn sorry but if that is not a judgement on the Parents I stand corrected.
ps On every caravan site I have ever visited, children are at play without constant supervision. Should these parents not deserve children and should they be procecuted ??? if they let the children play unsupervised?????? I know it is a different case but parallels could be drawn.
Val & Frank
Colinn sorry but if that is not a judgement on the Parents I stand corrected.
ps On every caravan site I have ever visited, children are at play without constant supervision. Should these parents not deserve children and should they be procecuted ??? if they let the children play unsupervised?????? I know it is a different case but parallels could be drawn.
Val & Frank
"not only on this topic, that should a contributer not agree with you then that contributer is wrong and you are right. ( opinion )
In most cases your correct. You pointed out we all have opinions. I can't help it if mine is correct, and that I disagree with yours, but you have every right of reply and I would not wish you you to stop
Good Night Colinn
In most cases your correct. You pointed out we all have opinions. I can't help it if mine is correct, and that I disagree with yours, but you have every right of reply and I would not wish you you to stop
Good Night Colinn
I think I heard on the news a few days ago that the parents of Maddie may be procecuted for neglect, please correct me if I am wrong. Should they be procecuted did they neglect their children, bearing in mind they were not I believe in the same building as the children.
Also points to consider in a strange country, little Maddie so young, if she awoke between the half an hour check while mum and dad having their meal, not even an older brother or sister available, both younger than her, what would she do, call her mum, would her mum hear her calling. NO. Nobody would hear her calling.
If that is not neglect what is?
Also points to consider in a strange country, little Maddie so young, if she awoke between the half an hour check while mum and dad having their meal, not even an older brother or sister available, both younger than her, what would she do, call her mum, would her mum hear her calling. NO. Nobody would hear her calling.
If that is not neglect what is?
Sorry
But I feel that what happens to the parents at this moment in time is unimportant. Only the child matters at this point.
As for the family, I received this the other day:
Yes, I have mangled the mail and numbers but you should be able to work it out
On behalf of Kate and Gerry McCann and all the family, please help us find
Madeleine.
Madeleine, age 3, was abducted from her bed in the family holiday
apartment, Praia De Luz, Algarve, Portugal on Thursday, 3rd May.
Police and all of Portugal are trying to find her. The Portuguese people,
holiday makers and ex pats have been a great support to the family and
continue their efforts.
You, too can help. Please circulate this plea to publicise Madeleine's
photo and ask for information, no matter how small to be passed on to the
authorities.
Whether you are in the UK, Portugal, Europe or beyond, please forward to
all your family, friends,colleagues and business associates.
Someone out there will have some information that will lead to Maddy's
return.
The internet can be a powerful tool in finding Maddy, who is so loved and
missed by us all.
Let's use it positively.
Please pray for Madeleine and all the family at this devastating time.
We need your help. We know you won't let Maddy down.
God bless,
Pat Perkins
(Family friend)
Pat Perkins
Pre Employment Lead
NHS Academy (Northwest)
Pat.Perkins(at)skillsforhealth(dot)org(dot)uk
Mob: Zero79zero1 five41 zero62
Tel: zero1five1 482 five614
Fax: zero1five1 482 fivefive13
But I feel that what happens to the parents at this moment in time is unimportant. Only the child matters at this point.
As for the family, I received this the other day:
Yes, I have mangled the mail and numbers but you should be able to work it out
On behalf of Kate and Gerry McCann and all the family, please help us find
Madeleine.
Madeleine, age 3, was abducted from her bed in the family holiday
apartment, Praia De Luz, Algarve, Portugal on Thursday, 3rd May.
Police and all of Portugal are trying to find her. The Portuguese people,
holiday makers and ex pats have been a great support to the family and
continue their efforts.
You, too can help. Please circulate this plea to publicise Madeleine's
photo and ask for information, no matter how small to be passed on to the
authorities.
Whether you are in the UK, Portugal, Europe or beyond, please forward to
all your family, friends,colleagues and business associates.
Someone out there will have some information that will lead to Maddy's
return.
The internet can be a powerful tool in finding Maddy, who is so loved and
missed by us all.
Let's use it positively.
Please pray for Madeleine and all the family at this devastating time.
We need your help. We know you won't let Maddy down.
God bless,
Pat Perkins
(Family friend)
Pat Perkins
Pre Employment Lead
NHS Academy (Northwest)
Pat.Perkins(at)skillsforhealth(dot)org(dot)uk
Mob: Zero79zero1 five41 zero62
Tel: zero1five1 482 five614
Fax: zero1five1 482 fivefive13
Liz,
I fully understand what you are saying.
But do you have patrols on your site, and point out to parents that children must not be left alone at anytime ??????. I'm not defending the parents, I am trying to understand what the answer is.
Would it be to allow the children to eat in the resturant grizzling away till midnight ?? Or would it be that the parents stay in the apartment??? Or the wife went to eat and then the husband ???. They could have taken a villa and ate in every night, afterall the wife didn't need a holiday !!!. It's difficult. I take our 9 months old grandaughter to the pool and I am looking around to see if anyone is watching us. Now I won't go unless Val is with us, so our grandaughter can go to the female changing rooms. Poor times in which we live eh.
Val & Frank
I fully understand what you are saying.
But do you have patrols on your site, and point out to parents that children must not be left alone at anytime ??????. I'm not defending the parents, I am trying to understand what the answer is.
Would it be to allow the children to eat in the resturant grizzling away till midnight ?? Or would it be that the parents stay in the apartment??? Or the wife went to eat and then the husband ???. They could have taken a villa and ate in every night, afterall the wife didn't need a holiday !!!. It's difficult. I take our 9 months old grandaughter to the pool and I am looking around to see if anyone is watching us. Now I won't go unless Val is with us, so our grandaughter can go to the female changing rooms. Poor times in which we live eh.
Val & Frank
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