Neighbour issues

ProfJohnL · Sep 29, 2016

Dustydog said:
Fully agree Ray.
The Prof disagrees with my point but there are two very important issues.
1. It is encumbent upon the Insurer to decide how far they will go in any action.
2. Most Legal expenses insurers offer a help line where you can seek counsel.
The main subject matter of the Legal expenses Insurance is to ensure the policyholder enjoys his insured property without external interruption.....

Hello Dusty,
I have to disagree with you again.

The main reason insurers offer legal advice to policy holders is a question of self preservation from the insurers point of view. Its in their interests to minimise any risk of them having to pay out in the event the policyholder is sued by a third party where the insurers funds are at risk. For example if a window cleaner slips on uneven paving slabs.

I seriously doubt the companies offer legal fees cover to help policy holders initiate an action against someone or something that does not directly affect the insured entity.

Obviously if you want your insurance company to cover legal costs your would be wise to get a written assurance from the company BEFORE embarking on any precipitous action that may incur legal costs.

Dustydog · Sep 30, 2016

ProfJohnL said:
Dustydog said:

Fully agree Ray.
The Prof disagrees with my point but there are two very important issues.
1. It is encumbent upon the Insurer to decide how far they will go in any action.
2. Most Legal expenses insurers offer a help line where you can seek counsel.
The main subject matter of the Legal expenses Insurance is to ensure the policyholder enjoys his insured property without external interruption.....

Click to expand...

Hello Dusty,
I have to disagree with you again.

The main reason insurers offer legal advice to policy holders is a question of self preservation from the insurers point of view. Its in their interests to minimise any risk of them having to pay out in the event the policyholder is sued by a third party where the insurers funds are at risk. For example if a window cleaner slips on uneven paving slabs.

I seriously doubt the companies offer legal fees cover to help policy holders initiate an action against someone or something that does not directly affect the insured entity.

Obviously if you want your insurance company to cover legal costs your would be wise to get a written assurance from the company BEFORE embarking on any precipitous action that may incur legal costs.

Sorry Prof but I too must disagree.
Reading your last post you appear to be confusing Legal costs arising out of a liability issue that may arise in contract or tort. The Legal Liability of policy may cover all the legal costs involved as part of the defence.
The cover afforded by the Legal Expenses Extension of a policy has nothing to do legal liability and the example you raise.
The situation here and indeed in Colin's daughter's case is precisely what the Legal Expenses Extension is for. It offers legal advice and legal expenses cover for any action the Insurer considers is necessary to protect the insured pecuniary interest in their property. The policy wordings are readily available on the Web for all to see.They even give you a legal help line to discuss these type of issues.

KeefySher · Sep 30, 2016

colin-yorkshire said:
Stevescampervan69 said:

Colin unfortunately mate it didn't happen out of the blue they have been getting away with it for too long and we have been too soft.

Click to expand...

hi Steve, this was exactly my point, nothing happens out of the blue, it is usually a creeping saga that starts with something small then escalates sometimes over many years.

little story. my daughter bought a new house in a block of 4 that had been the back gardens of two adjoining houses the developer [from one of the houses], provided a parking space in front of each house +1 each for the original houses, [because they no longer had a drive it was now the entrance to the site] 6 in all.
everything was fine for a couple of years, then two of the houses [inc the developers] changed hands.

new people brought 2 cars each to the site, one person [next door] did not have a car, so 6 spaces, 7 vehicles, inc a works van. then the guy next door bought a mobile home. 8 vehicles then a caravan turned up, and there was nowhere to park as two of the vehicles were almost permanently sited.

this lead to the residents [her] parking in the access road, and then it turned into chaos.

with the end result that our daughter received a solicitors letter about court action for blocking the access road [and others right of way] when she had a caravan [not hers] parked in front of her house.

after a long legal battle lasting 5 years she sold the house [at a loss with the law fees included] just to get away from the stress. the matter was never resolved. because the original developer, had not allocated a space to each house but left it as a communal parking area with no limit on the amount of vehicles any house could bring into the area.

she also took action against the original developer and the solicitor who did the conveyancing for mall practice but lost both cases.

moral of the story is read the deeds before buying, it may be nice now but you have no idea what will happen 10 years down the line.

Another couple of morals:
In life you can choose your friends, but not your relatives or neighbours!!
Never ever buy a property that has shared access, it almost always ends in tears.

We've recently had issues around egress from our property to the public highway. Have resided here 25 years. After involving the Police, we now call them if our egress is impaired and get the offending vehicles towed away at the owners cost. After the first time we haven't had reoccurrence.
The relevant legal bit is:
The Traffic Management Act 2004, Part 6, 86.
and The Highway Code Rule 243 refers. I point out to the offending driver that a driving licence comes with responsibility, a point often overlooked.

Raywood · Sep 30, 2016

Many household policies do give legal cover for actions like this either as part of the standard cover or as an add on so it may be worth checking if you have this. I am afraid though taking the cover now will not help as the insurer will not cover existing disputes.
The help lines are just that though. You will speak to a qualified person but they give only advice and will not actually deal with the problem but talking it through with them in detail can help.

Buffers · Sep 30, 2016

if the position of the caravan obstructs the view out into the main road, you could inform the police, but dont hold your breath. the police have the power to cause removal of any vehicle placed in such a position or in such a condition so as to dander to others. this applies to land as well as road.

chrisn7 · Sep 30, 2016

You and you neighbours may need to act if you feel strongly enough about this as the person in question can in some circumstances end up gaining possession of it, if he occupies it long enough, though how this works appears to depend upon whether the land is registered or not

ProfJohnL · Sep 30, 2016

I believe the OP's hands are tied, even if he is prepared to fund a legal action, but I'm not clear on what grounds such an action could be considered.

The problem is not on ground he owns, thus he has no jurisdiction over what the ground can be used for. That is a matter for the owner to resolve. However if what is occurring contravenes planning consents, then he may be able to inform the planning department.

If the ground was designated for public access, then he may be able to argue the placement of the caravan prevents access to that part of the ground. Again he could would have to inform the local authority, or the land owner.

If the way the caravan was being used meant it was a potential health or safety hazard, then again the matter would have to be handled by the LA. If the electric cable is just lying across the ground, That is a problem for a public area.

On road parking is not an offence providing itdoes not cause an obstruction, but using a turning point as a parking space may be debatable. The fire service may have a view on that.

The only way I can think of for an individual to take a lead in these circumstances is if the activities of the neighbour constitute a legal nuisance, But again such matters are usually in the power of the LA, and from what we have been told, this activity is a festering annoyance rather than definable nuisance.

If nuisance could be proved then it is within the powers of the LA to seek an ASBO.

As Ray has suggested, where an insurer offers a legal help line, all they may choose to do is offer advice, but they are not obliged to offer legal costs cover, as there is no material loss or damage to the policy holder or the property.

I know this all makes it seem I have no sympathy with the OP, well not withstanding my concerns about only having one side of the argument, I do have sympathy. But when you are in the thick of it, it's often all too easy to lose sight of forest for the trees.

Mel · Sep 30, 2016

I would never advocate escalation tactics as generally such things end very badly in these sort of disputes; but did wonder if you and your other neighbours had ever parked your own vehicles on that patch of land when your caravan owning neighbour had taken his van away. If so what was his response at finding nowhere to park on his return?
Mel

JonnyG · Sep 30, 2016

I tend to look on the negative side of things that way if i'm wrong its a pleasant surprise for me far better than looking at things from a positive and then being let down when its all not true.... read stevecampervan69 posts several times... is it for real? seriously? you have got to be joking!!!!!!

Parksy · Sep 30, 2016

This is a long shot but if you and other neighbourse were considering risking money on a legal action why not instead try to discover if the Crown property which is at the center of your dispute may be for sale?
The solicitors for the govenment department responsible for sales of bona vacantia land siezed by the government for the crown are :

Burges Salmon LLP
One Glass Wharf
Bristol
BS2 0ZX

Maybe if you contacted them to outline the issue they may advise or they may make the land available through public auction. All you have to do is to ascertain if the caravan owning neighbour will bid and if he does, outbid him using your collective bargaining power!
Arguing with the stubborn neighbour will resolve nothing but a bit of lateral thinking might just outwit the guy

Click Here to read up on bona vacantia and crown land

Parksy · Sep 30, 2016

There is more information Here if, as seems likely, the crown has or will disclaim the property.

Dustydog · Sep 30, 2016

Ray
You will will remember from your CII days studies, Rylands -v - Fletcher.
The principle remains the same and the parallels are here.

ProfJohnL · Oct 1, 2016

Dustydog said:
Ray
You will will remember from your CII days studies, Rylands -v - Fletcher.
The principle remains the same and the parallels are here.

Hello Dusty,
I have read up on Rylands -v - Fletcher, in

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lzNpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=Rylands -v - Fletcher.&source=bl&ots=NglHLVPaoq&sig=FxfLnXvD0XhmysGTaubfksnlTAg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFx5-1nbjPAhWMCcAKHWPODbgQ6AEINTAE#v=onepage&q=Rylands -v - Fletcher.&f=false
As the actions of the neighbour do not actually impair the amenity of the OP's own property, the only other aspect of the case that might be applicable is if the defendants actions can be shown to be out of place. But then there is the point of who to serve against, as it would normally be against the land owner, as they are allowing the neighbour to annex and use the the land in this manner.

All very murky and open to various interpretations.

Dustydog · Oct 1, 2016

Thanks Prof.
I've no more to say other than Parksy's suggestion is probably the best to go for a definitive answer.

Raywood · Oct 2, 2016

Dusty, Rylands v Fletcher brings back memories but I am not convinced it applies here as no actual damage or nuisance on others property. My feeling is that it is probably an obstruction on the highway but that would need the road to be adopted and the local authority to to take action. If he has damaged the tarmac then the local authority might take action.
If he has invaded someone else's property then it would be that person that would need to take action but if I read it correctly then it was his own hedge he cut back..

Stevescampervan69 · Oct 2, 2016

We have consulted a solicitor and he suggested we could try and buy the land , he also explained from his experience they do tend to write to all neighbours, however I didn't want to get into a bidding war, I have a copy of the deed for the land (all 18 pages of it!) I can't see how they would ever sell it anyway as it's basically the bit of land at the front of the cul-de-sac separating in from the pavement, I should also add that I own all the land around this piece of land (and my boundary cuts into it a bit) my solicitor also pointed out he has no access rights from that land onto mine, if I wanted to play dirty I could block his caravan in as I'm parking on my own land,

ProfJohnL · Oct 3, 2016

Stevescampervan69 said:
We have consulted a solicitor and he suggested we could try and buy the land , he also explained from his experience they do tend to write to all neighbours, however I didn't want to get into a bidding war, I have a copy of the deed for the land (all 18 pages of it!) I can't see how they would ever sell it anyway as it's basically the bit of land at the front of the cul-de-sac separating in from the pavement, I should also add that I own all the land around this piece of land (and my boundary cuts into it a bit) my solicitor also pointed out he has no access rights from that land onto mine, if I wanted to play dirty I could block his caravan in as I'm parking on my own land,

You see Steve,
There is more to this than you told us, and frankly these latest pices of information confuse to situation further.

It seems illogical that you neighbour can have a boundary with the land if you own all the land around the piece of land in question.

How can your boundary cut into it. - it can't - because the boundary defines the point of separation, and what inside your bounary cannot form part of another parcel of land. A boundary does not have to be a straight line.

And why would a solicitor write to all your neighbours if you were entering a private arrangment to purchase a piece of land? Unless you were looking for a change of use requireing a planning application.

I'm sorry but these latest revalatons reintroduce seruis suspicious about your motives in bringing it to the forum.

Hutch · Oct 3, 2016

This thread seems it should to be given up to a law society. Not on a Caravanning forum,

Parksy · Oct 3, 2016

Stevescampervan69 said:
We have consulted a solicitor and he suggested we could try and buy the land , he also explained from his experience they do tend to write to all neighbours, however I didn't want to get into a bidding war, I have a copy of the deed for the land (all 18 pages of it!) I can't see how they would ever sell it anyway as it's basically the bit of land at the front of the cul-de-sac separating in from the pavement, I should also add that I own all the land around this piece of land (and my boundary cuts into it a bit) my solicitor also pointed out he has no access rights from that land onto mine, if I wanted to play dirty I could block his caravan in as I'm parking on my own land,

Something isn't adding up here.
You wrote that the caravan owner has installed a 230v electricity supply but according to your latest information you own the land surrounding the crown property.
Where does the electricity come from then?
Either buy the crown land or block the caravan in if you are on your own land when you do it.
I don't think that there's much more to add to this topic, be guided by your solicitor because a caravan forum can't offer professional legal advice but your solicitor can.

colin-yorkshire · Oct 3, 2016

I don't know why you did not part with this gem of information 4 pages ago [kept it for later eh] it would have saved all the speculation.
I guess you know the answer and have known it all along, depends on how you want to proceed with it, if your boundary surrounds this bit of land, that no one has right of passage over, it is trespass when he goes to the van. you can stop that.
but I doubt it is that simple, if the previous owner went bust and the bit of land left unoccupied how did he use it with no access, why have you not fenced it off if it's yours, and also you say you have a copy of the deeds so it must show the boundary and right of passage to get to it. how can your boundary encroach on the same bit of land as the previous owner unless there was a shared ownership. something is not right here.

no one on here can solve your problem for you, if you really want to sort it out, get your tin hat on and do something.
you have to up the anti. get your solicitor to write them a letter giving them 14 days to remove the van or you will put a wall around your private property and box it in, if of course it is yours. but in the end it is going to cost money lots of it. trust me I know.

there are only two ways to play this, go to war. or do nothing and stay a pacifist. everyone want to get on with the neighbours but it is not always possible, do something about it or sell up and pass the problem on to someone with more of an attitude to fix it. I would but that's just me.
I have a disabled bay outside my house for the wife, one neighbour used to park there when we went out, I went round to tell him to shift it, he refused, so I reported it and a parking ticket was issued, 3 times he parked there 3 times he got a £60 ticket, guess what he doesn't park there any more, and neither does anyone else.

sort it out or give up it's up to you. as the dragons say "i'm out"

ps, it may be time for one of the mods to lock this and confine it to the archives it is nothing to do with caravans except one that is owned by someone else, not really a topic for a "caravan forum"

Stevescampervan69 · Oct 3, 2016

Sorry was late last night when I replied, it was meant to say I own the land in front of the crown land, (hense no access rights) and when I say cuts in I mean the border is slightly over where the Tarmac edge is , the electricity comes from their property goes behind the turning point and onto the crown land, I appreciate the advice

Stevescampervan69 · Oct 3, 2016

You are right Colin, time to go to war!

Dustydog · Oct 3, 2016

I wish you well in your quest Steve

. I do hope you give your solicitor all the facts early on after all you are paying for his time unlike on here

It will be very good of you to let us know the final outcome. If anything we have stretched our imaginations and minds which keeps the old gray cells going :cheer:

swpostie · Oct 18, 2016

Torch it!

Problem - "WHOOOOFF!" - No problem!

[Ahem - of course, What I mean is, shine a high-intensity flashlight on the abomination to the extent that the local dogs start a-barking and the owners of the aforesaid abomination get fed up and move it!]

20170602yuanyuan · Jun 2, 2017

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