New caravan - faults before leaving forecourt!

[scooby301]

Hi,
Went to pick up our new caravan today, lucky for us we took the advice on the forum and before handing over our money we thoroughly checked the caravan inside and out.

The caravan had many marks and problems which really really disappointed us considering we have been waiting for the caravan since October.
The main issue we had, was that the front panel had stone chips along with scrapes and gouges at the very bottom. Other issues inside were a large dirt spot on the upholstery, staples sticking out of the bathroom door, paint flaking from the bed frame, scrape/ dent in awning rail and they were washing it down with petrol! (We turned up early - obviously they were not expecting us)

Needlessly to say I rejected the van immediately and refused to take it from the forecourt, even though they said I could take it away and reject it at a later date. (Not sure about that)

The dealer has agreed to have all the work done to the van straight away including having the front panel resprayed /repaired and has given us the choice to come back in a week and have another look and decide again.
Now our dilemma starts bearing in mind that the caravan will cost in excess of £22K:

• The dealer has said that they cannot replace the caravan with a new one since there are no more available - But should I accept a new caravan that has to be resprayed without ever leaving the forecourt?
• They have hinted that they might be able to replace with an equivalent layout from another brand - Although the brand in question has more problems than any other on this forum and admitted that they are not selling very well.
• If we have our deposit back then we risk being without a caravan until possibly the end of the year, and if we have our old caravan back (if they have not sold it - handed it over in October) it won't be the same since it has had 6 months of people sitting and walking through it.

What are your thoughts? Any advice would be gratefully accepted.

 

[kopite]

hi scooby,cant belive what your saying what a nightmare i dont no much about cantracts and stuff but if it we`re me i would shop around to see if any dealers have got anything ready to go.A new van with a respray no thanks.good luck in what you decide

 

[forestgump]

Walk away you can get the same els wear it is not even worth a disscount because later on it will show up .

 

[Tony_5041742]

If you are at all concerned you should run, not walk, away. We had a not dis-similar experience 3 or 4 years back when we last changed our van in that we were profoundly unimpressed by the supplying dealer, but because we'd done the factory order thing, waited 5 months for delivery etc, we accepted being fobbed off. I knew at the time I was being fobbed off and also knew at the time that the right thing to do was to walk away, but I didn't do it. With 20/20 hindsight I should have walked, though the main difference with us and the OP is that we hadn't handed our old van over.

 

[Parksy]

Sorry to learn about the problems, it's disgraceful that this dealer attempted to fob you off with a sub standard caravan costing 22 grand!

You did exactly the right thing by rejecting it and as for the offer of a respray consider what has already taken place.

The dealer knew that there was something wrong, why would they wash it down using petrol?
They were quite prepared to sit back after accepting your hard earned money and watch you go away with a caravan which had faults which should have been picked up and rectified by them. To me this seems dishonest, you paid for a pre delivery inspection!
Would you really trust these shysters to do a good job with a respray?
Their guys were not worried about dirty upholstery, not exactly conscientious are they?

What does the dealer mean by 'no more available'?
Has the particular model that you bought been discontinued?
Or do they mean that they haven't got another similar model in stock? Don't be fobbed of with a 'similar make' or 'equivalent layout from another brand' these people might simply be trying to unload another load of old rubbish onto you by trying to scare you into thinking that you will be without a caravan for a lengthy period.
Stick to your guns, insist on exactly what you've ordered - a brand new perfect caravan with no dents, scrapes, staples, dirt or new paint job that would probably only be what used car dealers called a 'blow over' anyway.
Ask them exactly how long the replacement will be and be prepared to look elsewhere, if you find the caravan that you want there's nothing to stop this dealer from obtaining it for you and transporting it to their premises at their own expense.
Be prepared seek professional legal advice about the trade in but make it clear that they are the ones at fault and it's up to them to put matters right!
Put everything in writing and insist that they do the same, they have shown themselves to be untrustworthy so act accordingly.

 

[scooby301]

Thank you all so much for your comments they are much appreciated, we are going to speak with the MD of the dealership tomorrow and will let you know of the outcome.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Scooby
The dealership has breached the Contract of Sale.
Whatever happens he must in Law ensure you are in the same financial position as you were before you entered into the contract.
This means he has to return your deposit and original caravan in the same state it was last October. If he's sold it he must give you cash for the amount of px you had agreed.
You did exactly the right thing rejecting the new caravan. I assume you haven't paid for it yet?? Don't pay.
As the others say it is time to walk away and live to fight another day.
There are plenty of exellent dealers out there with good availability. Do not be forced into buying second rate goods. You'll never be happy nor will SWMBO .
Where are you geographically?

Good luck this morning and remember theMDs sole objective is to soft soap you into accepting a repaired new caravan or a model not of your choice. Hold your ground.
As Parksy says you can always consult a Solicitor next week.

 

[HenryB1]

Do phone round other dealers. Many of the larger ones order in advance for stock from the manufactures. You may well find one that either has one in stock or an uncommitted one due for delivery.

 

[Surfer]

Under no circumstances should you be accpeting this caravan. If this si what they do prior to a sale, what will it be like when you take it in for a service? Get a refund and walk away and go to another dealer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Scooby,

I'm very sorry to read of your experience. It certainly sours the relationship you have with your dealer.

However I am really pleased that the forum has alerted you to your rights in the matter, and you have been able to put them to good use.

Just clarify a few points. Technically your claim is against your seller - this may be the dealer if you paid cash, but if you have used a finance package, your seller may actually be the finance house and not the dealer. Which ever is the case your rights remain the same. It is important you clarify this before proceeding.

You would need to seek professional advice about this, but I believe your purchase of the new caravan was in fact two sequential transactions, The first is the sale of your old caravan to the dealer ("part exchange" though in fact the dealer is actually buying the caravan from you which releases its value that can be put against the new caravan) and then the second is your purchase of the new caravan. These are legally separate transactions and are not mutually linked even if they appear on the same document.

As you have rejected the new caravan (and it seems the dealer has accepted this position) you are entitled to a full refund of the purchase value of the caravan. This is not just the cash value you paid but the bottom line value of your cash and PX value combined.

As your old caravan was part of a separate transaction (as outlined above) the dealer cannot force you to have it back as part of a refund package, unless you want it!

Perhaps you need to reserve your judgement about the competence of the dealership until after you have met with the Managing Director. It is just possible there were genuine reasons for the poor performance you encountered, and maybe you can be convinced that it won't happen again.

Do not accept verbal offers, get every thing in writing signed and dated and if possible witnessed. Do not agree to anything until you're certain you understand all the details, - if necessary get then checked by a professional.

Don't forget that this claim is strictly between you and your seller. The dealer cannot transfer the responsibility to the manufacture, as the manufacture has no jurisdiction in this matter what-so-ever. Strange as it may seem, if the dealer were to involve the manufacture in any way, then manufacture becomes a sub contractor to the dealer - you only have to deal with the seller.

I sincerely hope all is resolved satisfactorily. Sadly it needs more people to be as vigilant as you to make the retail market wake up and stand up and accept its culpability for the supply of substandard products.

Well done.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Scooby
Any update?

 

[Surfer]

John are you saying that if my caravan is valued at £2000 but the dealer offered me £2500 p/x and then due to circumstances I rejected the new caravan entirely and cancelled the deal, the dealer is contracted to refund me £2500 if my caravan is no longer available? This cannot be right as surely I am gaining financially and the law does nto allow that.
In this case the way I read it is that the OP has not paid the balance therefore there is no contract except for the deposit therefore no finance company would be involved.

 

[scooby301]

Spoke to the MD of the company who has spoken to the caravan manufacturer on our behalf. The outcome is that a brand new van is on it’s way to us. I have to say that the MD and manufacturer have been excellent on this occasion BUT if these faults had been picked up at the factory and during the PDI then all this could have been avoided.

I urge everyone to check and double check everything before handing over your hard earned cash. Will let you know when the van arrives. Thanks again everyone for the advice

 

[Dustydog]

Surfer
Surely the deal here is not what the caravan's worth on the market place but the amount the dealer offered to pay.
If the deal fell through because of the dealers errors then the offer he made must stand. He who calls the shots etc etc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,

What dusty says is correct.

In essence an item is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That establishes its legal value for the purpose of THAT transaction. To prove the point, think about what would you have to do set things back as they were before the transaction took place, the answer is pay the exact same sum (a full refund) back to the purchaser. That is the essence of SoGA in these circumstances

Lets try explain how it has to work:-

You negotiate a deal that values a new caravan at £12,500 This is the agreed contractual value of the new caravan.

Now you must decide how you are going to pay for it

You negotiate a PX deal that values your old van at £ 2,500 (see para1)

That leaves a cash balance to find of £10,000

Whichever way you look at it you the caravan has cost you £12,500 and if you reject it, a full refund is 12,500.

That is why you need to consider the px as a separate transaction to the main purchase transaction, even though they were mutually linked as part of the original deal.

 

[Dustydog]

Scooby's last post , 12, is blank. Prof John's latest is missing???

 

[Surfer]

Hello Surfer,
What dusty says is correct.

thanks for the above. Generally I am fairly clued up on the SOGA, but was unsure in these circumstances. Going one step further. If you buy a second hand caravan from a dealer including a brand new awning to fit that caravan, but then find that the caravan is toally unsatisfactory and you eventually reject it, can you also claim back what you paid for the awning if it has not been used? If you select anothe caravan but the awning measurement is greater than the previous caravan you bought?
My understanding is that on rejection you have to be put back into the financial position you were prior to the purchase which means a full refund on the awning.
Apologies to OP for hijackings their thread and also congratulations on wining one for consumer power.

 

[Parksy]

Scooby's last post , 12, is blank. Prof John's latest is missing???

I can see them ok

 

[Parksy]

Scooby wrote:

Spoke to the MD of the company who has spoken to the caravan manufacturer on our behalf. The outcome is that a brand new van is on it’s way to us. I have to say that the MD and manufacturer have been excellent on this occasion BUT if these faults had been picked up at the factory and during the PDI then all this could have been avoided.

I urge everyone to check and double check everything before handing over your hard earned cash. Will let you know when the van arrives. Thanks again everyone for the advice

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Surfer,
You would need to confirm the circumstanes and situation with a proffesional, becasue there may be different aspects of the deal that changes thier legal standing.
But in principal yes the awning should be refunded also, because the awning was purchased as part of the deal (though as above it is treated as a seperate transaction) part of the sale of goods is the item must be fit for purpose. If the caravan is not fit for purpose then the awning supplied by the same dealer is also not fit for purpose becasue there is no caravan.

 

[Surfer]

Hello again Surfer,
You would need to confirm the circumstanes and situation with a proffesional, becasue there may be different aspects of the deal that changes thier legal standing.
But in principal yes the awning should be refunded also, because the awning was purchased as part of the deal (though as above it is treated as a seperate transaction) part of the sale of goods is the item must be fit for purpose. If the caravan is not fit for purpose then the awning supplied by the same dealer is also not fit for purpose becasue there is no caravan.

Thanks John for confiming my thoughts. We may an an issue with a dealer. The caravan that we bought 2 weeks ago has a MKIII Carver faceplate and water flowing into the caravan spurts from the taps alternating between hot & cold as if air is getting into the system. A chat with Gary from Arc `Systems revealed that the MKIII was dead in the water shortly after it was produced and they reverted back to fitting the MKII. The filters are no longer available and neither is the MKII faceplate. Basically the caravan without the updated MKIV will be next to useless shortly as the water will either dwindle to a trrickle or stop flowing. We want the dealer to upgrade the faceplate to the MKIV at their expense otherwsie we will reject the caravan as the MKIII has an inherent fault which is why it was pulled way back in about 2000. Dealer is objecting to fitting the unit at present but I will shortly be writing a letter to them so neeed all the ammo possible. Over the past 7 years we have spent in excess of £40,000 at this dealer!

 

[Dustydog]

Well done Scooby sounds like, fingers crossed, a good result.

Surfer What make is the caravan?
The Swift Forum allows members to name and shame dealers.
SOGA is very clear about inherent defects so push the dealer hard.

 

[Surfer]

It is a 1999 Lunar Clubman 470 CK2. Except for the water issue the caravan is fine but if they do not resolve the issue we may not be able to use the caravan at all in a year's time unless we pay to have the faceplate updated. Trading standards have advised along the inherent fault issue and I have written to the dealer today. So now we wait for a resposne.

 

[Parksy]

The Swift Forum allows members to name and shame dealers.

I'm not sure if that applies to non Swift dealers DD. Their own dealer network were consulted about the Swift forum and they agreed to participate.

 

[Dustydog]

The Swift Forum allows members to name and shame dealers.

I'm not sure if that applies to non Swift dealers DD. Their own dealer network were consulted about the Swift forum and they agreed to participate.

That's correct Parksy.
I should have qualified the point.