New M'Way 80mph limit.

[JonnyG]

Om wrote "No fuss, no problem and as speed increases your reaction times and breaking distances alter with the conditions."

With practice and experience.
As we get older our reation times reduce and we take longer too make decisions. Its just the way it is.
I can just imagine a load of 70/ 80 year old driving at 140mph on the motorway, The resulting carnage would soon solve the ageing population issue.
Older folks have far fewer fatal / serious injury accidents than younger folks, mainly because they drive more slowly because there spatial arwareness skills have reduced, there reaction times have reduced, so they reduce their speed. If we all drove more slowly we would save fuel, have far fewer accidents and save on insurance.
Motorways should be limmited to 55mph for everyone,, urban roads should be 20mph ( to protect our cyclists, pedestrains and kids), dual carriage ways 40mph.
Lets all slow down a bit , set off earlier, take more timeand be more relaxed.
In fact " let the train take the strain".

I dont know phil, lets go the whole hog and set the speed limit to 5mph and have a person walking in front of each vehicle with a red flag waving! each passenger could take turns and we would also be a fitter/healthier society as well

If the max speed limit was 55mph.
Instead of M/ways we would have free-ways undertaking being allowed on those type of roads, and the once "bad driving[speedster] brigade could swerve from lane to lane avoiding the now legal lane hogger who could now travel at 50 mph in the safe knowledge that they are entitled to be inconsiderate to all other road users.
40mph on A roads.
Well imagine how friendlier that would make everybody, although thats the max legal speed for HGV vehicles on those type of road anyway can you imagine the road trains that would cause! Seriously
20mph urban!
Its quite a skill these days to avoid those kamikaze cyclist in major citys anyway, and I am proud of the fact of just how many lifes i have safed because unlike them i was aware and extra cautious of all my manoeuvres,and indeed of their total disregard of all matters regarding the now deduct highway code.
If we were indeed to have to stick to 20mph on all urban roads, frankly we would have no time to watch the road ahead because we would be far too busy using our mirrors watching these cyclist overtake us from all angles!
We need better policing,more police on the roads,so bad drivers can be pulled up and shown the errors of there ways, people who speed need the same treatment, and if it costs the poor bad driver or speedster, money or his right to drive, so be it.
I take full responsibility for my own actions always have always will, if i get done for a driving offence, its my own faulty and not anybody else's, nor do I question whether the police have nothing better to do.
As a pedestrian I don't actually walk in front of moving cars, and as a cyclist I don't cut down the inside lane and even if i did, common sense would have me looking to see if the vehicle at the side of me is turning left!
Accidents do happen OK, but its every bodies individual responsibility to look after themselves in the first instance, and not rely on others to do their job for them...

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Does speed really make that much difference?

Over the years I have seen many loonies drive down the motorways well in excess of the legal limit, only for me to pull in to the same service station an hour or so latter to see them walking to the services, or standing at the fuel pump. having gained but a few minuets.

PS Phill you are spot on.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Om On weelz suggested that a sliding speed limit should be introduced based on road conditions, Sorry but rings all sorts of alarm bells ringing, many of them being ambulances and fire engines rushing to mop up the mess etc.

The big problem with that proposal is that when the conditions change at what point does the speed limit change? If its left to each individual drivers own judgement, then at any given time you will have people assuming different limits apply - Mayhem I think and enormous danger. We already see big differences of opinion when mist, fog or spray occur - should we use dipped headlights or not

If its then down to the authorities to have changeable signage, what cost for the stretches of motorway without them already fitted. How often do wee see the current ones not cancelled of worse not reflecting the worsening road conditions.

We already have enough confusion with vast numbers of limit changes when LA decide to implement 30 and 20mph zones where previously 40 or 50 had been in force, and the limits placed on different classes of vehicles.

Confusion rules, I think!!!!

 

[JonnyG]

Lutz might be able to help on this, but if i was able to understand some of the m/way signs as i was driving along, then atleast some of their M/ways that are as such de restricted, are only de restricted, at certain times of the day.
We already have overhead warnings, so as long as these speeds are policed properly, then 80 mph might be fine, but not at all times of the day, and not on All m/ways.
Problem is will the powers that be wont to go to the trouble of sorting where when and which M/ways are suitable for higher limits.?

 

[Philspadders]

"Accidents do happen OK, but its every bodies individual responsibility to look after themselves in the first instance, and not rely on others to do their job for them... "

Why not try something a little radical, and lets us all start to consider everbody else and make it our own responsibilty to ensure that other road users are safe and that our actions do not endanger others.

Other than that , anyone who thinks they are good drivers and can drive how they like should have an 8" spike fixed to the centre of the steering wheel, ad ill bet you they slow down.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

, 55mph in 2011. There's a few ludites around here. If the French can cpe on busy twin lane motorways with 81mph there is no reason that the same is fine here with all the technology we have on our roads.
20 mph is a rediculous speed and is proving to be even more dangerous in places it's been used. Pedestrians and Cyclists,Don't play with the trafiic and everyone will be fine.
By th time I get to a train station, pay a kings ransome for a ticket in a glorified cattle truck the strain is to much for me

before the darn thing has even turned a wheel. Forget the scramble for seats, delays, work on lines and grubby passengers poluting my space with Ipod overload. Just forget the trains.

 

[mullsy1]

Om you can have a given stretch of motorway where 100% of them are excellent drivers whether speeding or otherwise. How many of these people know when they will have a blow out or maybe a loose stone flies up and smashes their windscreen. There are many permutations of what construes an accident but I'd rather have a blow out at 60 than 80. Even so there's a good chance of there being a multiple collision with fatalities. Not all accidents are caused by speed, fast or slow. Excellent drivers are made of the same soft tissue as everyone else and are just as likely to die.
The last sentence could be debatable because I believe fast drivers, those who thrive on speed, also have hard tissue between their ears because they don't sense danger.
There, more people I've insulted ... heh! heh! heh!

I must keep up with the family motto.

There are plenty of fast drivers with clean licenses and accident free long term driving records Lord B. I think you'll find that Germany's un-restricted autobahn sections are ot littered with blow outs and nor is the accident record to bad compared to the UK.
Even when busy French twin lane motorway drivers handle 80mph plus driving ok. If UK police concentrated on bad driving practices rather than speed UK roads would be a far better place.

I went on quite a lot of coaches in the 60's and my best pals uncle owned a coach company, my dads 1200 Cortina wasn't exactly a road racers dream andI don't remember it getting bown in to the weeds by any coaches either

From my memory of many uncomfotable hours on 60's coaches I think it just felt that they were doing 90 when they were doing 45

The Ford Cortina ,one of my all time favourites and no need t worry about speeding because it barely could.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If the French can cope on busy twin lane motorways with 81mph there is no reason that the same is fine here with all the technology we have on our roads.
20 mph is a rediculous speed and is proving to be even more dangerous in places it's been used.

They also cope with their alcohol as well but we can't

I'm not sure what technology you mean though. Do you mean the gantries where it tells us that the maximum speed is 60 and to drive on the hard shoulders because the motorway is clogged up?

I agree 20mph is stupid and the antics of some cyclists leave a lot to be desired. They are a law unto themselves.

 

[Parksy]

I see that variable speed limits are to be introduced around the notoriously overcrowded M5 / M6 interchange where the use of the hard shoulder as an extra lane will soon be introduced.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/03/06/m6-drivers-to-test-out-four-lanes/

 

[JonnyG]

"Other than that , anyone who thinks they are good drivers and can drive how they like should have an 8" spike fixed to the centre of the steering wheel, ad ill bet you they slow down."
Why is it people group sentances togeather for effect?.
Has anybody stated they are a good driver and can drive how they like? No, indeed How can these two statements even be used in the same sentance?
surely it should be clear phil, that "good drivers"dont actually drive "how they like"!
What would be interesting though is as you said "think of others" If all cars came with an 8" spike fixed. What odds are you going to give that the first causalties of that type of draconian thinking will be someone "thinking of others"!

 

[Dustydog]

I see that variable speed limits are to be introduced around the notoriously overcrowded M5 / M6 interchange where the use of the hard shoulder as an extra lane will soon be introduced.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/03/06/m6-drivers-to-test-out-four-lanes/

So that will be 0 - 1 mph?

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

"20 mph is a rediculous speed and is proving to be even more dangerous in places it's been used. Pedestrians and Cyclists,Don't play with the trafiic and everyone will be fine."

Tell that to a child as he comes out of school and he runs out into the road to meet his best pal.
Sorry I'm all for 20 MPH in residential areas, outside schools etc.
wooops almost forgot car is King.

 

[Parksy]

Is road safety ever taught in schools nowadays?
Most of the roads outside schools around here where I live are subject to 20mph limits and the roads are festooned with humps and artificial narrow chicanes which slows motorists down ok.
This is just as well because from what I see on a daily basis schoolchildren and adolescents appear to believe that the roads are exclusively for pedestrian use. They saunter across, stepping straight off the pavement without bothering to look at all and they don't have a care in the world. A warning toot on the horn will often elicit a two fingered salute or a bovine stare as they casually wander around in the roadway.
Nobody deserves to be injured or worse whilst crossing the road but a wee bit of forethought and care from pedestrians wouldn't come amiss.

 

[Philspadders]

" 20mph is more dangerous" , where are your statistics?, where do you get your facts from?

Germany had 4154 road deaths in 2009. the UK 2538.

you may want to have look at this link.

http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm
20 years ago i witnessed a fatality. A 13 year old boy ran into the road, outside his school to retreive a foot ball. It was a stupid thing to do. The car that him was doing around 38mph in a 40 zone. The boys head hit the cars windscreen, but that did not kill him. He then flew over the top the car and landed around 30' behind the car.
What killed him was his head being split open as it hit the tarmac.
I can still see it know.
At the inquest the coroner asked the police about the speeds involved.
If the car had been travelling at 30mph there was a chance he would have survived the impact wth a broken legs and pelvis simply because he would not have been thrown so high intom the air.
If the car had been travelling at 20mph he would have survived with a broken leg , cuts , grazes.

The driver was not at fault, and the boy was trying to stop his football hitting a car.
I remember at the inquest that the driver had been unable to work since the incident.
I suspect the driver has had nightmares ever since.
Im very pleased that most schools now have 20mph zones. I dont find it annoying at all and i expect the kids to be all over the road.
Kids dont think much further ahead than what they are doing at that moment, they are full of bravado,arrogance, cheek, and a sense of imortality, but so did i when i was that age. Consequences of our actions rarely came into the decision making process. This comes with time, age and experience, and a sense of our own mortality, which sadly seems to evaporate the moment we get behind the wheel of our little steel boxes.

 

[SteveW77]

Germany had 4154 road deaths in 2009. the UK 2538

Germany also has a lot more roads than the UK, Germany is some 43000 square miles bigger than the UK and their population is over 84 million, so I would expect a higher figure.

Steve W

 

[JonnyG]

Phil that link is from 2000,and the data is a 3 year programme? so 1997-2000. Some of that data is mileage based and not vehicle based,so you might not understand the difference but company cars and company business ie lots of miles done daily by the business class[sale reps] will effect the accuracy ie Britain has a huge huge data base of company reps charging up m/ways compared to say Italy France ect. Or rather it did a decade ago when those figurers were done.and this will be used to distort things.But thankfully its nice to know we are seemingly a pretty save country for road deaths.
I believe the US used the same statistical trick to assure its people that the average age of soldiers being killed in Vietnam was NOT 19!.

Never nice to see anything nasty happen to kids,but i detest the uses of stories,and statements to try to justify things you know," had the car been going 20mph... BLA BLA BLA everything would have been ok"! Rubbish.. the car that hit my son sitting in the passenger seat of a Peugeot 306, had an impact speed of 20mph! or so it was reported.He wasnt ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Kids dont think much further ahead than what they are doing at that moment, they are full of bravado,arrogance, cheek, and a sense of imortality, but so did i when i was that age. Consequences of our actions rarely came into the decision making process.

.... and here lies the problem. Who is failing who? Parents, government, teachers?
I would say all three starting off with parents and parental responsibilty which some parents, because of their busy lives, seemed to have absolved to the state these days.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

" 20mph is more dangerous" , where are your statistics?, where do you get your facts from?

UK Department of Transport reported October 2010
Re 20 mph speed limits
"The number of people killed or seriously injured on affected roads actually went up, not down, after the limit was lowered"
" an analysis of the UK's first city-wide scheme - in which the limit was lowered from 30mph to 20mph on all residential streets in Portsmouth, at a cost of £500,000 - found that it has not brought any significant reduction in the number of accidents.
The number of people killed or seriously injured on affected roads actually went up, not down, after the limit was lowered.
Motorists' groups said the findings cast doubt on the case for city-wide 20mph schemes."
It also said
"only 15 per cent of fatal crashes and 5 per cent of all accidents are caused by speeding."

 

[Dustydog]

" 20mph is more dangerous" , where are your statistics?, where do you get your facts from?

UK Department of Transport reported October 2010
Re 20 mph speed limits
"The number of people killed or seriously injured on affected roads actually went up, not down, after the limit was lowered"
" an analysis of the UK's first city-wide scheme - in which the limit was lowered from 30mph to 20mph on all residential streets in Portsmouth, at a cost of £500,000 - found that it has not brought any significant reduction in the number of accidents.
The number of people killed or seriously injured on affected roads actually went up, not down, after the limit was lowered.
Motorists' groups said the findings cast doubt on the case for city-wide 20mph schemes."
It also said
"only 15 per cent of fatal crashes and 5 per cent of all accidents are caused by speeding."

A very fast stretch of the A419 between Cirencester and Swindon regularly kills the innocent.
Two problems.

There are breaks in the central reservation allowing right hand turns and U turns.
The turning driver under estimates the speed of the approaching vehicle.
The A419 driver is easily cruising at 90 mph approx and doesn't see the turning bloke early enough.

They all pay with their lives.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

A very fast stretch of the A419 between Cirencester and Swindon regularly kills the innocent.
Two problems.
There are breaks in the central reservation allowing right hand turns and U turns.
The turning driver under estimates the speed of the approaching vehicle.
The A419 driver is easily cruising at 90 mph approx and doesn't see the turning bloke early enough.
They all pay with their lives.

Your point is ?
What has bad road layout and design on an 'A' road got to to with motorway speed limits?
We lived 100 yards from a primary school for over 20 years, 30 mph limit and I doubt that we or 99.9999999999999% of drivers ever pass it at more than 20 mph without any speed humps or 20mph signs.

 

[chrisbee1]

You would be very lucky to attain a speed of 20MPH outside my local primary school. With parents cars parked on the pavements both sides of the narrow road, doors being opened without looking, cars pulling out without looking and adults stepping into the road without looking I would think the average speed of passing motorists is nearer 10MPH.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

It was outside a school that I had an accident. Mother had parked up in her LR Freelander on the wrong side of the road. Like Crisbee said, there was no chance of speeding and only enough room to drive down the middle of the road. As I was passing the LR the door flew open and out stepped a 5 year old girl. Luckily I was going slow, missed her, but crunched the door and my front offside. Thankfully I'm not one of those who go off ballistic, cussing and arm waving. It's happened and the raising of ones blood pressure isn't going to put it right. Besides, my time was now taken up trying to console a blubbering mother and child.
This was the only front end bump I've had apart from hitting a deer in the early hours. All my other bumps have been rear end, five in all, and every time I was stationary

 

[Dustydog]

A very fast stretch of the A419 between Cirencester and Swindon regularly kills the innocent.
Two problems.
There are breaks in the central reservation allowing right hand turns and U turns.
The turning driver under estimates the speed of the approaching vehicle.
The A419 driver is easily cruising at 90 mph approx and doesn't see the turning bloke early enough.
They all pay with their lives.

Your point is ?
What has bad road layout and design on an 'A' road got to to with motorway speed limits?
We lived 100 yards from a primary school for over 20 years, 30 mph limit and I doubt that we or 99.9999999999999% of drivers ever pass it at more than 20 mph without any speed humps or 20mph signs.

The point Om is that a lot of people seem to have trouble judging the speed of an approaching vehicle.
A not so good driver travelling at 90 on the M1 may misjudge his closing distance on a slower vehicle in front . Another rear ender.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

The point Om is that a lot of people seem to have trouble judging the speed of an approaching vehicle.
A not so good driver travelling at 90 on the M1 may misjudge his closing distance on a slower vehicle in front . Another rear ender.

Your scenario has little to do with judging speed Dusty, anyone travelling at 90mph legally or illegally on a road with the layout you describe is bonkers! And the authorities are even more bonkers not to have changed the road layout.
The fact that so many choose to ignore is that many driver are travellin on the M1 and other motorways at 90mph+ there are some accidents and speed is not the contributing factor in very many of them. Drivers across the world travel on roads with igher speed limits than the UK and German Autobahns and other counties roads are not littered with bodies and nor are they a grave yard for elderly drivers doing 100mph + as a Lord B post suggested.
Somebody here said that they often get passed by mad drivers going fast and end up alongside them further down the road. OK they got caught in traffic or behind some plonker hogging a lane. But obviously all those "mad" drivers got to the same point as safely as the dawdler

Last season we came dow the M1 from Yorkshire, caravan in tow, cruise sat at 60 mph, our friends left us behind on the slip road as they were solo. They got home 3 hours earlier than us as they were moving faster they missed the 3 hold ups we encountered. If they'd stayed at 60mph with us that would have been another car in the queues

 

[Dustydog]

Cutting the chase Om
It seems to me you are advocating high speeds have nothing to do with accidents