New Toyota electric car

[JezzerB]

Road pricing.

 

[Tobes]

I wonder how much the government will be taxing EVs in 2030 onwards as they need to recoup billions lost in taxes which is used to fund organisations like NHS etc? Plus of course the cost of a kwh of electric?
Just to add although I am not keen on EVs the above post is just a normal question that none of us can answer.

It doesn't really matter. The treasury will make up the hole in its finances one way or another. But, if the government have (and continue to have) a plan to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, you can expect the cost to run an ICE to be even higher than that of an EV.

Road charging (which I think will be inevitable and necessary) will apply to ICE as well as EV, and probably on top of VED. EV will get more expensive, but the cost differential will remain.

 

[ProfJohnL]

However an EV requires several large batteries, but a hydrogen fuel cell probably only requires one cell? Overall the hydrogen powered vehicle will damage the environment less because it is lighter so no extensive wear and tear.

Presently using todays batteries EV's typically add about 500 kg or less to the weight of an equivalent car. More weight does equate to more wear and tear on our roads, but its not as simple as multiplying the wear by the increase in the weight of the vehicle, so if a vehicle weighs 50% more, it does not produce 50% more wear on the and other infrastructure.

In practice the EV's are are only producing very minimal increases in infrastructure damage. The major damage is being caused by the really big HGV's with ridged axles, and the general increase in the overall numbers of vehicles using our roads.

I am also thinking that the bonus is that many ICE vehicles can be converted to use hydrogen power and that is the biggest environmental; bonus.

Simply converting ICE to use H2 may reduce some of the emission's, but even burning H2 under pressure in side an IC engine still produces Nitrous Oxides. Less is obviously better, but its not quite as clean as some might have you believe.

You also have the other irreconcilable fact that ICE engines are typically only 25 to 30% efficient, which means for every usable kW of energy they produce they waste 2 to 3 times as much as heat.

In some case there may be no other reasonable alternative, but burning H2 in an IC engine is far from its best use.

It is far better to use H2 in a fuel cell. But even so its still needs far more supplementary energy (usually electricity) to produce the H2. It is still far more efficient to put the electricity into a BEV than to use it to produce a fossil fuel alternative.

 

[Buckman]

It doesn't really matter. The treasury will make up the hole in its finances one way or another. But, if the government have (and continue to have) a plan to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, you can expect the cost to run an ICE to be even higher than that of an EV.

Road charging (which I think will be inevitable and necessary) will apply to ICE as well as EV, and probably on top of VED. EV will get more expensive, but the cost differential will remain.

Agreed that road pricing may be the way forward, but will it work and generate enough income? During the week although we have 2 vehicles we do approximately 70 miles as we live in a rural area. I would think that many motorists are also low mileage motorists. It also needs to be a very brave government to introduce road pricing.
Possibly the issue here is that VED only makes up a small proportion of taxes gained from motorist. I would think that the majority of tax income comes from duty and VAT on fossil fuel followed by VAT on car spares and servicing?
That is one big hole to recover from motorists plus also financing road maintenance. If they do not keep the roads in good shape no matter what you drive you are going to have an issue as public transport in the UK is not very good in many areas.
Maybe if more electric generators were built it would help moving away from fossil fuel instead of relying on power from foreign countries. i.e. Russia. Is there perhaps a reason why the UK prefers to rely on energy supplies from foreign countries rather than build their own i.e. nuclear or gas powered generating stations?

 

[Tobes]

Agreed that road pricing may be the way forward, but will it work and generate enough income? During the week although we have 2 vehicles we do approximately 70 miles as we live in a rural area. I would think that many motorists are also low mileage motorists. It also needs to be a very brave government to introduce road pricing.

Thats is one of the very reasons that road pricing makes sense. Those that use the most, pay the most.

Possibly the issue here is that VED only makes up a small proportion of taxes gained from motorist. I would think that the majority of tax income comes from duty and VAT on fossil fuel followed by VAT on car spares and servicing?
That is one big hole to recover from motorists plus also financing road maintenance. If they do not keep the roads in good shape no matter what you drive you are going to have an issue as public transport in the UK is not very good in many areas.

The costs need to cover the duty and tax that are associated with sale of fossil fuels for sure. Electricity at home is 5% so that is covering some of the costs associated with spares and servicing. Electricity at public chargers is 20%VAT

Maybe if more electric generators were built it would help moving away from fossil fuel instead of relying on power from foreign countries. i.e. Russia. Is there perhaps a reason why the UK prefers to rely on energy supplies from foreign countries rather than build their own i.e. nuclear or gas powered generating stations?

The UK owns the vast majority of the electricity generation that we need. The spource energy (gas) is piped in from elsewhere (Norway and Eastern Europe, as well as the North sea). But Gas is a global commodity. When the price changes in on the global market, gas prices everywhere are impacted, not just for the source where the constraint exists.
The UK plan is to increase our wind generation capacity (on-shore and off-shore) and which reduces our reliance on external sources and lowers the cost of our base supply. (Offshore wind is the cheapest form of generation per kWh available).

 

[Buckman]

s everywhere are impacted, not just for the source where the constraint exists.
The UK plan is to increase our wind generation capacity (on-shore and off-shore) and which reduces our reliance on external sources and lowers the cost of our base supply. (Offshore wind is the cheapest form of generation per kWh available).

They got to off their tiny little rockers if they think wind power is going to make up any difference in addition to the damage it does to the environment plus the pollution associated with them.
Off shore wind may be the cheapest if the wind is blowing. It must also be remembered that the UK population is expanding and we will need even more electric than ever before.

 

[Tobes]

They got to off their tiny little rockers if they think wind power is going to make up any difference in addition to the damage it does to the environment plus the pollution associated with them.

What environmental damage and pollution do you mean? Just wondering if you have seen the impact of a gas generation plant? Or a Nuclear plant?

Off shore wind may be the cheapest if the wind is blowing. It must also be remembered that the UK population is expanding and we will need even more electric than ever before.

So - if we need lots and lots of power, would you advocate for a form of generation that is more expensive? You want the bills to go up more? confused

 

[Buckman]

What environmental damage and pollution do you mean? Just wondering if you have seen the impact of a gas generation plant? Or a Nuclear plant?

So - if we need lots and lots of power, would you advocate for a form of generation that is more expensive? You want the bills to go up more? confused

Transporting the unit to the location and then erecting. Pollution is eye pollution as they are ruining our countryside.
I am not advocating anything, just pointing out some observations.

 

[Tobes]

Transporting the unit to the location and then erecting. Pollution is eye pollution as they are ruining our countryside.
I am not advocating anything, just pointing out some observations.

Off-shore wind is - off shore. Not much country side used up. But perhaps a nuclear plant in a national beauty spot would be a better option? If it spoils the view, have a drive around the old coalfields of south wales and see what that damage looks like. But we have been here before - I like the look and sound of wind turbines, but thats just my opinion. I enjoy watching fossil fuels not being burned.
Transporting a unit to its location (onshore or offshore) is a drop in the ocean in terms of pollution compared to running any non-renewable generation plant.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The transportation and erection of turbines for wind farms produce a fraction of of the pollution compared to the construction and continual resupply of fuel to a conventional fossil fuel power station.

I would argue that Power stations with cooling towers and their plumes of water vapour and smoke and have a much bigger effect on the environment are a bigger eye sore than a wind farm.

This is now moving away from the root of the thread....

 

[Parksy]

Transporting the unit to the location and then erecting. Pollution is eye pollution as they are ruining our countryside.
I am not advocating anything, just pointing out some observations.

Off-shore wind is - off shore. Not much country side used up. But perhaps a nuclear plant in a national beauty spot would be a better option? If it spoils the view, have a drive around the old coalfields of south wales and see what that damage looks like. But we have been here before - I like the look and sound of wind turbines, but thats just my opinion. I enjoy watching fossil fuels not being burned.
Transporting a unit to its location (onshore or offshore) is a drop in the ocean in terms of pollution compared to running any non-renewable generation plant.

This thread is again becoming a pro / anti niggle fest.
Protagonists need to agree to disagree because the thread is going nowhere.
If there's nothing further to add that's new, I'm about to lock this thread.