Newbie Advice - Weights

[Pillbory]

Hi Everyone.
Just joined as I'm planning to take the 40's mid life plunge into caravan world. I am a long time tenter, and just too old battle the weather.

I would be greatful for a little advice. I don't have a granddad rights on my licence so stuck with total of 3.5 tons.

Would the following RIG be lawful? I think I got my numbers correct.

Grand Picasso as tow car :
Max Gross train weight GTW 3,499
MAX allowable Mass MAM 2,200
Kerb weight (no persons or luggage) 1,510

Van : Bailey Ranger 550/6
Bailey
Mass in running order 1058kg
Max permissable 1298kg

 

[Raywood]

Assuming your figures are correct, the outfit will be legal, provided there is no overloading, and should make a decent combination. If you add the MAM and the MTPLM you are 2 kg short of the licence limit and one short of the makers GTW which would be the legal limit for the car, so that is not a problem.
For newcomers it is recommended you try to get the MTPLM just below 85% if possible, but it is not a legal limit and frankly being a bit over is not normally a problem. You can add 75 kg to the kerb weight if it does not include the driver when doing the calculation, which gives you 1,585, which I would say is fine.
You do not say what engine the car has though so I cannot say how it will deal with the weight on the road. Being so near the makers limit might indicate it will possibly struggle a bit on the hills if both the car and caravan are near their full weight limits.
Hope this helps and enjoy your caravanning.

 

[Ads910]

Looks perfectly legal, I thought the 550/6 would have been heavier than that.

I’m on the same licence with a Nissan qashqai and the thing we struggle with is all the equipment that goes with it,

Obviously cant load too much in the caravan and then getting it all in the car is a struggle.

I’m thinking of doing the tow test an getting something bigger

 

[Pillbory]

Thanks for the reply. Just needed a second opinion to be confident.

On trips the car will have 2 adults and 2 kids. I reckon about an extra 220kgs for the kerb weight of car and I also plan to pack more in the car (obviously not taking it about the max allowed).

The car is a 1.8 petrol. The checks I made seem to agree with you a little. It will be a little slower up hill. Etc

Thankyou we are getting excited now. Going to see a 2008 model tomorrow that is going for just under £6k. ;-)

 

[Pillbory]

I too was surprised by how light it was. I do plan to do the test once I get some practice in as well. Open up our choices when we decide to upgrade.

Thanks.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Pillbory,

I agree with the advice already given your outfit is a go as far as your licence is required.

Can I just correct two points. Contrary to your assertion that you do not have Granddad rites, you do, but the rites are the ones you received when you passed your test. This means that when the Government decide to change the definition of Cat B, regardless of what they change it too you will retain the rights you were given.

And secondly, by adding load to a car such as passengers and luggage it does change the actual weight of the car but the Kerbweight is a figure of when the car is in its minimum road usable weight.

There is no legal requirement for manufacturers to provide a "kerbweight" figure as part of the whole vehicle type approval process, so there are a number of different definitions used by car makers.

Under no circumstances exceed the manufacturers load limits, they have legal implications, but caravanners tend to make use of the Kerbweight when trying to match their outfits in accordance with the caravan industries guidance for towing ratio, and whilst it can be an edifying exercise and a starting target its far from precise, and should only be considered as part of a range of targets. Its arguably more important to get the method of loading right even if the towing ratio is a little high.

Probably the biggest thing to affect safety, is teh way the outfit is driven. Remember that you are effectively doubling the length and weight of the car, which will affect the length of time it will take to get up to speed, and to pull out of junctions. You need more space on the road, especially for turning corners, and passing parked vehicles. If you can imaging driving a bus, then that's the sort of space and performance you can expect.

Both the caravanning clubs run towing courses to show you how to do it and to learn some useful techniques. Such things are also covered in the load Extension BE test course.

It all may seem daunting but lots of people manage it very successfully.

Good luck

 

[Ads910]

Our qashqai is a 2.0 petrol. I’m sure the Picasso will get the job done but like me you will find it just lacks the torque needed for towing.

On the motorway it’s fine once you are going, its just the pulling away at junctions An hill starts were you will notice it.

 

[Craigyoung]

Hi pillbory ,
Mid 4o's ? When did you pass your test as im 39 and past 97' , 3 days after they changed the ruling on the BE bit .
( and Prof , the busses i drive are gas and nippy at junctions )

 

[Dustydog]

Hi pillbory ,
Mid 4o's ? When did you pass your test as im 39 and past 97' , 3 days after they changed the ruling on the BE bit .
( and Prof , the busses i drive are gas and nippy at junctions )

I never knew the Prof drove a bus :evil:

 

[Craigyoung]

Probably just been cut up by many when they are trying to pull out at junctions !! There's drivers and then there's drivers

 

[DaveA1]

Thanks for the reply. Just needed a second opinion to be confident.

On trips the car will have 2 adults and 2 kids. I reckon about an extra 220kgs for the kerb weight of car and I also plan to pack more in the car (obviously not taking it about the max allowed).

The car is a 1.8 petrol. The checks I made seem to agree with you a little. It will be a little slower up hill. Etc

Thankyou we are getting excited now. Going to see a 2008 model tomorrow that is going for just under £6k. ;-)

HI Pilbory
I may have misunderstood you, If I have sorry, But you can only use 75 kg for driver and tools, to count towards the kerb Weight. The rest counts towards the train weight.
On some cars, this extra weight comes off the towing limit, the Insgnia is an example. (my motor)
The towing limit on my motor is a lowish 1600 kg altough the kerb weight is stated as 1833 kg.
This applies to driver and passenger at 75 kg each. (driver only counts towards kerb weight) In the Towing specification it says "any extra weight, such as luggage and passengers should be deducted from the max towing weight".

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for the reply. Just needed a second opinion to be confident.

On trips the car will have 2 adults and 2 kids. I reckon about an extra 220kgs for the kerb weight of car and I also plan to pack more in the car (obviously not taking it about the max allowed).

The car is a 1.8 petrol. The checks I made seem to agree with you a little. It will be a little slower up hill. Etc

Thankyou we are getting excited now. Going to see a 2008 model tomorrow that is going for just under £6k. ;-)

HI Pilbory
I may have misunderstood you, If I have sorry, But you can only use 75 kg for driver and tools, to count towards the kerb Weight. The rest counts towards the train weight.
On some cars, this extra weight comes off the towing limit, the Insgnia is an example. (my motor)
The towing limit on my motor is a lowish 1600 kg altough the kerb weight is stated as 1833 kg.
This applies to driver and passenger at 75 kg each. (driver only counts towards kerb weight) In the Towing specification it says "any extra weight, such as luggage and passengers should be deducted from the max towing weight".

Renault used this approach too where Car load is deducted from towing weight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The last two replies about derating the towed load, does not affect the OP's proposed outfit. All the weights and allowances are within specification.

The only additional note I would add at this point would be to be careful about loading the caravan, as it is all too easy to overload the caravan without realising it.

 

[Pillbory]

Hi Craig. I was a late starter I think I did my test in 2001 so about 24. If only I pulled my finger out when I was younger!!!

 

[Pillbory]

Thankyou Prof. I bought a nose scale today (a calibrated one) so plan to make sure I have a good balance all round once I get my head round the figures. I have two 5 year olds that will be in the car, and that is my first and ultimate concern, so safety first.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thankyou Prof. I bought a nose scale today (a calibrated one) so plan to make sure I have a good balance all round once I get my head round the figures. I have two 5 year olds that will be in the car, and that is my first and ultimate concern, so safety first.

Oh Dear - You have mentioned "calibrated nose load gauges" :woohoo:

I advise you to take it back to the supplier and ask for your money back, becasue even "calibrated " nose gauges are unlikely to measure nose load correctly. Beacuse it does not guarantee settling to teh correct height for the measurement.

The correct method for measuring nose load is for the trailer hitch to be at the same vertical height from the ground as when it is coupled to the tow vehicle. It should be obvious the height of the tow ball will be affected by how much load is applied to it. If the trailer nose load is large, the tow ball will be depressed further than if the nose load is small.

To further complicate the issue is that it is a characteristic of caravans that the nose load will actual change if the hitch is raised or lowered, consequently the actual nose applied to the car is dependant on how high the the loaded coupling is from the floor. and vice verca. Consequently a measurement taken at any other height will not give the nose load.

The EU does stipulate that the loaded hitch must reside between 350 and 420mm from the ground to the geometric centre of the ball hitch.

The problem with all the domestic compression spring loaded measurement devices is they compress to a length dependant on the applied load. It's only luck if the settled height of the gauge matches the loaded ball height. Consequently it more than likely to give a false reading of the actual nose load when coupled.

You can do a better and at least as accurate job with a pair of bathroom scales sat on the caravan step and packed up with a few magazines to match the the loaded tow ball height.

Measurements must be done on a horizontal surface as any slope will corrupt the measurement.

 

[otherclive]

The last two replies about derating the towed load, does not affect the OP's proposed outfit. All the weights and allowances are within specification.

The only additional note I would add at this point would be to be careful about loading the caravan, as it is all too easy to overload the caravan without realising it.

Prof,
Neither Craig nor myself said that the comments affected the OP's circumstances, but could be relevant to someone with the Vauxhall or certain Renaults and if that caused them to recheck their own circumstances then it could be of benefit from legal or safety position. My daughter had Laguna which fortunately I found had this loading restriction when towing so she gave up on the idea of getting caravan when she had that car. That was before the days of internet forums too.

 

[Craigyoung]

:blink: ? What'd i say ?! :dry: :huh:

 

[otherclive]

:blink: ? What'd i say ?! :dry: :huh:

Sorry it was DaveA1. Mea Culpa

 

[DaveA1]

:blink: ? What'd i say ?! :dry: :huh:

Sorry it was DaveA1. Mea Culpa

T'was Me !

 

[Raywood]

Not sure I would worry about pulling out from junctions. Whatever you tow with you need to allow for this and soon get used to it. With a petrol engine though you do not get the low down torque you get with a diesel engine and the real difference is on hills when you will need to change down rather more but they manage.
The other point to watch is at slow speeds the caravan will cut in a bit on bends so you need to take the bends a bit wider but you soon get used to that.
If you want help for hitching, siting and leaving sites there are several good videos on u tube which are worth checking out.

 

[Craigyoung]

And like ray said , if you get stuck on a site hitching up or something goes wrong , go and ask someone next door to you or around to you , someone will always help , maybe know what to do . I have asked before , don't be shy !

 

[ProfJohnL]

Not sure I would worry about pulling out from junctions. Whatever you tow with you need to allow for this and soon get used to it. With a petrol engine though you do not get the low down torque you get with a diesel engine and the real difference is on hills when you will need to change down rather more but they manage.
The other point to watch is at slow speeds the caravan will cut in a bit on bends so you need to take the bends a bit wider but you soon get used to that.
If you want help for hitching, siting and leaving sites there are several good videos on u tube which are worth checking out.

Oh Ray,

I was travelling at 50mph along the A5 towards Telford a few months ago the car in front was at least 600 yards head. Just as it had passed a junction on the near side, a car started to pull out to turn east bound for Cannock, and I could see it was struggling becasue it was towing a caravan. I started to slow down with the expectation the outfit wold have cleared my side of the road when I reached it. But it hadn't and I had to stop whilst it completed the manoeuvre.

The point is it took a lot longer than the drive expected to be able to pull out fully, so you should always be aware of how much longer it takes with a caravan in tow, adn taht applies to all outfits not just the OP's.

And the other important error I need to correct is that speed has no bearing on the path the trailer will take (unless its so fast that centrifugal force causes the caravan to slide out) A trailer will always take an inner path to the tow vehicle and the driver needs to allow for it when taking any bend at all speeds.

 

[Craigyoung]

Even when I am driving with the caravan on the back my wife criticizes my driving for going too wide with the unit and thinks she still thinks I am driving the bus ! Better safer than sorry, I'll admit I may clip the odd curb with a Bus tyre but they are a fixed unit and slightly longer than what we tow but I'm damn sure I haven't hit a curb yet with a caravan tyre
:lol:

 

[Icaru5]

Not sure I would worry about pulling out from junctions. Whatever you tow with you need to allow for this and soon get used to it. With a petrol engine though you do not get the low down torque you get with a diesel engine and the real difference is on hills when you will need to change down rather more but they manage.
The other point to watch is at slow speeds the caravan will cut in a bit on bends so you need to take the bends a bit wider but you soon get used to that.
If you want help for hitching, siting and leaving sites there are several good videos on u tube which are worth checking out.

Oh Ray,

I was travelling at 50mph along the A5 towards Telford a few months ago the car in front was at least 600 yards head. Just as it had passed a junction on the near side, a car started to pull out to turn east bound for Cannock, and I could see it was struggling becasue it was towing a caravan. I started to slow down with the expectation the outfit wold have cleared my side of the road when I reached it. But it hadn't and I had to stop whilst it completed the manoeuvre.

The point is it took a lot longer than the drive expected to be able to pull out fully, so you should always be aware of how much longer it takes with a caravan in tow, adn taht applies to all outfits not just the OP's.

And the other important error I need to correct is that speed has no bearing on the path the trailer will take (unless its so fast that centrifugal force causes the caravan to slide out) A trailer will always take an inner path to the tow vehicle and the driver needs to allow for it when taking any bend at all speeds.

I don’t believe there is an “error” or correction needed here Prof, as although Ray made reference to “slow speeds”, I’m sure he wasn’t suggesting that during normal driving, the speed at which a manoeuvre is executed has any bearing on the path of the van with respect to that of the car, but rather that the type of manoeuvres that result in a significant difference between the path of the car and that of the van are those that are indeed low-speed manoeuvres.

The magnitude of variation of the two paths is determined by the largest magnitude of the angular delta between that of the front wheels of the car and the wheels of the caravan during the manoeuvre. The greatest delta will of course always occur during low speed manoeuvres, such as those performed at junctions, or roundabouts, i.e, at “slow speeds”. Of course attempting to execute manoeuvres which result in such magnitudes of angular delta at “high speeds” will undoubtedly cause the caravan to “slide out” as you mention, due to the fact that the magnitude of centrifugal force is greater than that of the centripetal force (the sum of the frictional forces acting between the caravan tyres and the road surface). This would not occur during what one would consider to be “normal driving”, or at least I hope not