- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Icarus & Dusty
What may seem obvious to you and me may not be perceived in the same way by a novice caravanner, and what so often seems to be overlooked is that many novice caravanners may well look at this forum for advice or hints. So I strongly suggest that all contributors think carefully about what they write before posting on the forum.
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Unfortunately the way Ray's composed his comment clearly linked the path the trailer would to speed, not the radius of the bend, and the implication was that by some magical reason the caravan would take a different path depending on the speed. To some novice caravanner's that might seem a plausible explanation.
Whilst I am reasonably confident that is not what Ray meant, it is what he wrote and it is factually wrong so a reexplanation was required for accuracy.
Another possible connotation of Ray's comment is that it could give the impression that less care may be need when negotiating bends when travelling at speed.or indeed when pulling out of junctions. many years of historical practice have shown that the Laws of motion and the geometry of towing do apply to caravans! Even when dogs are driving
What may seem obvious to you and me may not be perceived in the same way by a novice caravanner, and what so often seems to be overlooked is that many novice caravanners may well look at this forum for advice or hints. So I strongly suggest that all contributors think carefully about what they write before posting on the forum.
.
Unfortunately the way Ray's composed his comment clearly linked the path the trailer would to speed, not the radius of the bend, and the implication was that by some magical reason the caravan would take a different path depending on the speed. To some novice caravanner's that might seem a plausible explanation.
Whilst I am reasonably confident that is not what Ray meant, it is what he wrote and it is factually wrong so a reexplanation was required for accuracy.
Another possible connotation of Ray's comment is that it could give the impression that less care may be need when negotiating bends when travelling at speed.or indeed when pulling out of junctions. many years of historical practice have shown that the Laws of motion and the geometry of towing do apply to caravans! Even when dogs are driving
- Nov 11, 2009
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I run noseweight at 70-75kg and checked my Milenco noseweight gauge against the bathroom scales method. Couple of kilograms difference with Milenco being slightly higher than scales. So err in right direction. The scales are very accurate when compared to airport checked in weights if we are flying with luggage. Now use Milenco for all noseweight checks. And usage is not that heavy that the spring will have “sagged”. Even take Milenco on some trips too.
- Nov 11, 2009
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Buckman said:
I think Prof is questioning the 140kg which seems high for a caravans A frame hitch load, when most are 100kg maximum.
- Nov 11, 2009
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- Mar 14, 2005
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Buckman said:
The fundamental method measurement of nose load requires the hitch to be at the same height as when it is coupled to the tow vehicle. Any measurement system that fails to observe that fundamental requirement does not measure the nose load.
Using a spring loaded nose weight gauge is better than nothing but it is not the correct way to measure. and the degree of error cannot be determined. The so called calibration of one manufacturers nose gauge only confirms that when it is loaded with a particular load it will give a consistent reading, it does not guarantee any convergence with the height of the tow hitch. This is particularly important with twin axle caravans where the rate of change of nose load with hitch height is very large.
You will get just as good if not better results from using bathroom scales and teh method I have given - without the cost of buying a piece of kit which actually does not do the job it is sold to do.
I am not aware of the clubs endorsing any particular make of gauge. If they are Then you should ask them to justify their endorsement.
- Nov 11, 2009
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Looking at the Milenco website is says the gauge is good for 130kg only. I know that the Reich electronic gauge is accurate but has the disadvantage that it doesn't have the correct location for the towball and tow hitch as the gauge separates them. How critical this is isn't clear in terms of accurately measuring the noseweight.
The other electronic load cell gauge that I am aware of is a German one made by AT Sensotec the STB 150kg which has an adjustable height between 340 and 430mm.
Perhaps a PC technical review of the various types of gauge and their sensitivity to height would be very useful and help bring clarity to the topic.
The other electronic load cell gauge that I am aware of is a German one made by AT Sensotec the STB 150kg which has an adjustable height between 340 and 430mm.
Perhaps a PC technical review of the various types of gauge and their sensitivity to height would be very useful and help bring clarity to the topic.
- Jul 18, 2017
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ProfJohnL said:
I don't understand your first paragraph which has gone over my head. Why would you want to measured the noseweight to the last gram? When we first got the Milenco we measured it up against bathroom scales and the difference was less than 5kgs so IMHO the Milenco is satisfactory on a level pitch. I never said that either of the clubs recommended a particular nose weight gauge however I did say that they recommended using one to determine nose weight.
- Nov 11, 2009
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- Mar 14, 2005
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Well blow me down,
A new nose wight gauge claiming to be calibrated. and with 400kg capacity
The picture shows the nose weight gauge under the hitch with the jockey wheel down!
And the advertising hype claims its the "Further improvements include the fact we made the Ball Weight Gauge the same height as your caravan, so you do not need to block it up to use it."
Yet when you look at the picture it clearly has a gauge with a length of at lest 150mm, So it has to change length to make a measurement, That means it will be only luck if its compressed load length matches your loaded ball hitch height. The EU Directive which defines the permitted range of loaded hitch heights to be between 350 and 420mm which is a range of only 70mm.
So yet again it fails to take the correct measurement in most cases.
It is also interesting to see that the manufactures own advertising is so inaccurate becasue BS 7691:1994 Methods for testing resistance to environmental conditions of electronic equipment used in agriculture and horticulture.
BS 7961:2004 Specification for a device for measuring the static vertical mass (noseweight)at the coupling point of the towed vehicle.
Its good to know the manufacture knows their stuff.!
It is also nice to get a bit pf information about the standard which is quoted as "accurate to within 8 kilos (as required by BS7691)." So is that +/-8kg or +/-4kg?
And if it is "calibrated" where is the calibration certificate with the record of the uncertainty?
Sorry but its all advertising hype designed to give punter false hope.
A new nose wight gauge claiming to be calibrated. and with 400kg capacity
The picture shows the nose weight gauge under the hitch with the jockey wheel down!
And the advertising hype claims its the "Further improvements include the fact we made the Ball Weight Gauge the same height as your caravan, so you do not need to block it up to use it."
Yet when you look at the picture it clearly has a gauge with a length of at lest 150mm, So it has to change length to make a measurement, That means it will be only luck if its compressed load length matches your loaded ball hitch height. The EU Directive which defines the permitted range of loaded hitch heights to be between 350 and 420mm which is a range of only 70mm.
So yet again it fails to take the correct measurement in most cases.
It is also interesting to see that the manufactures own advertising is so inaccurate becasue BS 7691:1994 Methods for testing resistance to environmental conditions of electronic equipment used in agriculture and horticulture.
BS 7961:2004 Specification for a device for measuring the static vertical mass (noseweight)at the coupling point of the towed vehicle.
Its good to know the manufacture knows their stuff.!
It is also nice to get a bit pf information about the standard which is quoted as "accurate to within 8 kilos (as required by BS7691)." So is that +/-8kg or +/-4kg?
And if it is "calibrated" where is the calibration certificate with the record of the uncertainty?
Sorry but its all advertising hype designed to give punter false hope.
- Nov 16, 2015
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But Prof, the Unit in the picture is Serialised and has a recalibration date of 2025, so at least 7 year between calibrations , that's a very long time. Maybe it has a screwable rod at the top to ygive a variable length.
I will stick to my old way of bathroom scales and up or down by 2 inches on my tow hitch makes about 1 kg difference on my scales, with the length of our caravan and keeping the C of G low in the van.
And I only got the scales as The wife says they weigh , 10 kg heavy.
I will stick to my old way of bathroom scales and up or down by 2 inches on my tow hitch makes about 1 kg difference on my scales, with the length of our caravan and keeping the C of G low in the van.
And I only got the scales as The wife says they weigh , 10 kg heavy.
- Jun 20, 2005
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I have to agree with the Prof that for me over the last 40 years the Milenco type spring gauges are a waste of space and highly inaccurate. Why? Well apart from the height issues which should be obvious to anyone I and others have shown that once under load the lightest of added or reduced weights over the hitch can cause massive different readings on the spring Guage.
A number of technically able Woosies have constructed substantial pieces of welded kit which hold the bathroom scales and allow adjustment for height to measure the nose load accurately. This is of course subject to accepting the scales are accurate in the first place.
Where I and the Prof differ is my use of the Reich T A guage.
I can say with consistency even though my Reich may be measuring 25 mm higher than the bathroom scales with the caravan set at its towing height the variance is less than 1kg. That’s good enough for me. But the ultimate control should still be the Prof’s scales method. Practice says for me the Reich is great but I do compare it once a year with the scales.
the scales with caravan level
A number of technically able Woosies have constructed substantial pieces of welded kit which hold the bathroom scales and allow adjustment for height to measure the nose load accurately. This is of course subject to accepting the scales are accurate in the first place.
Where I and the Prof differ is my use of the Reich T A guage.
I can say with consistency even though my Reich may be measuring 25 mm higher than the bathroom scales with the caravan set at its towing height the variance is less than 1kg. That’s good enough for me. But the ultimate control should still be the Prof’s scales method. Practice says for me the Reich is great but I do compare it once a year with the scales.
the scales with caravan level
- Nov 11, 2009
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When I first checked noseweight on the drive I used bathroom scales and the Milenco gauge and varied the heights around and couldn’t say there was any significant difference, a couple of kilograms. Which is fine by me because if an outfit weighing around 3500kg is critical to that extent then I’d seriously think of giving up caravanning.
So I now use the Milenco and take it with me in case I have to rebalance the caravan for any reason. But to be honest I have never had to do so.
So I now use the Milenco and take it with me in case I have to rebalance the caravan for any reason. But to be honest I have never had to do so.
- Mar 14, 2005
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EH52ARH said:But Prof, the Unit in the picture is Serialised and has a recalibration date of 2025, so at least 7 year between calibrations , that's a very long time. Maybe it has a screwable rod at the top to ygive a variable length.
I will stick to my old way of bathroom scales and up or down by 2 inches on my tow hitch makes about 1 kg difference on my scales, with the length of our caravan and keeping the C of G low in the van.
And I only got the scales as The wife says they weigh , 10 kg heavy.
Having worked in a business where all measuring equipment had to be calibrated before it could be used, there are certain minimum standards of identification that each piece of equipment must carry. A unique identity and a indelible indication of when the item had been calibrated, its calibration status (i.e. Passed or failed) and the expiry period or date. Documentary evidence was also required to demonstrate the history of the item, and any repairs etc. Overkill for a caravan nose load gauge may be, but if a manufacture chooses to use the language of calibration and conformance to standards, then they should carry it out completely.
I am not prepared to shell out nearly £100 to purchase a copy of the BS 7961:2004 standard, but if the Milenco product does conform to all aspects of the standard then I question the suitability of the standard for measuring nose load.
Just as a foot mote. Standards are certainly things that business should aspire to, but they represent the MINIMUM set of criteria for a product, But in some instances being compliant to a standard does not necessarily mean the product is fit for a particular purpose only that it complies with a standard.
Iit should be every designers and manufactures goal to check a product is fit for purpose and exceeds any relevant standards.
- Jun 20, 2005
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Amazing :woohoo:
In this day and age of internet access etc the good old British Standard people do not publish on line but want more than £100 for a copy of what must be a very important document.
No wonder there is little interest. But why is it made so difficult for us guys to access such important information If it is so important it should at least be available as a reference document.
In this day and age of internet access etc the good old British Standard people do not publish on line but want more than £100 for a copy of what must be a very important document.
No wonder there is little interest. But why is it made so difficult for us guys to access such important information
If it is so important it should at least be available as a reference document.TRENDING THREADS
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Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.
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