Newby questions Abbey, Bailey

[FORT]

Hi all. New to the forum and new to caravans too so be gentle. We are on the hunt for our first and its a minefield of fake adverts, damp, dodgy dealers etc.

We are on the hunt for a 4 berth sub £10k (ideally we'll below 10k) upto 1500mtplm and the wife says the shower cubicle must NOT have a toilet in it 🤣 so end bathroom.

We have come across one but it puzzles me. It's at a "dealer" but its a Abbey Freestyle 520 2011. Researching Abbey and It says Swift stopped Abbey in 2008? Is that correct and could the advert be wrong?

Also any advice on brands etc to avoid.

Thanks

James

 

[RogerL]

Hi all. New to the forum and new to caravans too so be gentle. We are on the hunt for our first and its a minefield of fake adverts, damp, dodgy dealers etc.

We are on the hunt for a 4 berth sub £10k (ideally we'll below 10k) upto 1500mtplm and the wife says the shower cubicle must NOT have a toilet in it 🤣 so end bathroom.

We have come across one but it puzzles me. It's at a "dealer" but its a Abbey Freestyle 520 2011. Researching Abbey and It says Swift stopped Abbey in 2008? Is that correct and could the advert be wrong?

Also any advice on brands etc to avoid.

Thanks

James

If it's the one I found on Autotrader near Doncaster it's mis-named - it's a Swift Freestyle - the badge on the front and name on the back give it away.

 

[FORT]

If it's the one I found on Autotrader near Doncaster it's mis-named - it's a Swift Freestyle - the badge on the front and name on the back give it away.

That makes more sense thanks.

 

[otherclive]

Coachman and Adria seem to have better quality than others. Hymer are also excellent but can be expensive and heavy compared to UK makes. Wouldn’t buy Lunar as they no longer exist. Whilst the equipment is the same as for other makes the body parts will be different and difficult to source if damaged. I have always gone by appearance. Does it look as if it’s been well cared for. Then full service records and a recent AWS damp check. Buying from a dealer gives good protection via CRA 2015, and using a credit card fir part payment Ie deposit, or dealer finance backs up that protection.

 

[FORT]

Coachman and Adria seem to have better quality than others. Hymer are also excellent but can be expensive and heavy compared to UK makes. Wouldn’t buy Lunar as they no longer exist. Whilst the equipment is the same as for other makes the body parts will be different and difficult to source if damaged. I have always gone by appearance. Does it look as if it’s been well cared for. Then full service records and a recent AWS damp check. Buying from a dealer gives good protection via CRA 2015, and using a credit card fir part payment Ie deposit, or dealer finance backs up that protection.

Thank you for the advice. Very much appreciated.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Don't totally dismiss any make as ALL makes can have problems. Some seem to feature more often on that score, but they are usually the high volume makes so there's more out there so numbers wise they can appear more troublesome But when percentages (faults per 100 say) then things will tend to even out.
At your price point I would be far more concerned with overall condition, and history, than I woukd ever be about the badge on the front. At that age your biggest concern will be damp, so ensure there is an up to date damp report. If buying fro.m a dealler, and they say the warranty doesn't cover damp DONT TOUCH IT WITH A BARGE POLE.

If you do get a warranty get your own damp check carried out a few weeks before it expires "just in case"

 

[ProfJohnL]

Don't totally dismiss any make as ALL makes can have problems. Some seem to feature more often on that score, but they are usually the high volume makes so there's more out there so numbers wise they can appear more troublesome But when percentages (faults per 100 say) then things will tend to even out....

Totally agree, but the difficulty is manufacturers do not publish their percentage failure rates, so that comparative method is unavailable to the consumer.

The nearest thing of which is in its self of limited value are the Customer satisfaction survey rates, which seem to show about 20% of caravans have problems big enough to make the customer have warranty claims, and even thats a distortion, becasue for many of the less serious issues, end users have often fixed it themselves, so the real failure rates are not known.

But the other factor that has to be borne in mind is that the fundamental problem with caravan manufacturers is the inconsistency of production, and consequently failures are spread across a wide range of features from poor body and fitting joints, to missing screws or other fixings.

The upshot is that its a lottery about what might be or go wrong in a new caravan, and the reason why two "identical" caravan constructed one after the other can be like Jekyll and Hyde.

One of the advantages of going for a secondhand caravan is hopefully the production failures will have been found and addresses by previous owners. But the older a caravan is regardless of make it is more likely to be prone towards damp problems.

Don't ask "is the caravan damp" ask "What its damp history is"

If your keen on a particular example, Don't agree to buy it immediately, Its money well spent to get it inspected by an independent caravan engineer (See AWS approved engineers who are often mobile)
If there is any hesitation by the seller to allow this, ask yourself why? and walk away.

 

[Jcloughie]

I just sold my 2015 Lunar Clubman. It had damp in the floor. But I was totally honest with the buyers. The van had no hint of a damp smell, and still doesn’t. It has had a lot of work done on it but the floor still has high readings.

The reason I write this is the buyers had a different outlook on it. They said if they only get 5 years use they will be happy.

6 months on, they are very happy with their purchase.

John

 

[Mr Plodd]

I just sold my 2015 Lunar Clubman. It had damp in the floor. But I was totally honest with the buyers. The van had no hint of a damp smell, and still doesn’t. It has had a lot of work done on it but the floor still has high readings.

The reason I write this is the buyers had a different outlook on it. They said if they only get 5 years use they will be happy.

6 months on, they are very happy with their purchase.

John

Your buyer is exceedingly rare as that's not an attitude many would take. I certainly wouldn't, an awful lot of rot can set in over 5 years.
As the OP is new to caravanning I would counsel that any damp should be treated like the plague and curtail any thoughts of purchase regardless of what any seller (private or commercial tells them.
Fort...
Damp is a real caravan killer, any rectification work, whether done by a workshop, or you, is an exceedingly time consuming, and if done by a third party, can be exceedingly expensive

 

[Hutch]

Your buyer is exceedingly rare as that's not an attitude many would take. I certainly wouldn't, an awful lot of rot can set in over 5 years.
As the OP is new to caravanning I would counsel that any damp should be treated like the plague and curtail any thoughts of purchase regardless of what any seller (private or commer

Maybe not as rare a buyer as you think, a lad round the corner from me, bought a caravan , a six berth oldish one, crack in the top of the rear panel, everything works, fridge, heater, toilet, shower,. It needs new Alko Friction pads, and tape over the crack in the panel. No damp above 20 %.
He bought it for £3500. He is not interested in getting it AWS serviced, wants possibly 3 or 4 two week holidays in it for himself and two kids. For a couple of years. So all good.

 

[otherclive]

Your buyer is exceedingly rare as that's not an attitude many would take. I certainly wouldn't, an awful lot of rot can set in over 5 years.
As the OP is new to caravanning I would counsel that any damp should be treated like the plague and curtail any thoughts of purchase regardless of what any seller (private or commercial tells them.
Fort...
Damp is a real caravan killer, any rectification work, whether done by a workshop, or you, is an exceedingly time consuming, and if done by a third party, can be exceedingly expensive

Not all damp is difficult or expensive to cure. The trick is to catch it early through regular damp checks. Over the years I adopted a regime based on annual AWS servicing and damp surveys. Then included six monthly AWS damp survey backed up with my own damp meter for other periodic checks. Owners new to caravanning need to be briefed on the importance of being proactive in the search for damp. Just as car owners should check oil and tyres and not rely on sensors to warn of problems.

 

[Jcloughie]

Not all damp is difficult or expensive to cure. The trick is to catch it early through regular damp checks. Over the years I adopted a regime based on annual AWS servicing and damp surveys. Then included six monthly AWS damp survey backed up with my own damp meter for other periodic checks. Owners new to caravanning need to be briefed on the importance of being proactive in the search for damp. Just as car owners should check oil and tyres and not rely on sensors to warn of problems.

All that makes excellent sense. But my caravan did not play ball. 6 completly dry servicing years. Followed by the 7th with extensive floor damp. But walls all still dry. I had a lot of work done, but it would not dry out. I suspect this was because moisure was traped under the lino. If only manufacturers would fully bond the lino. I think there would be less problems. Perhaps they don't know about capilary attraction 🤭.

It might be that the sealing that was done has worked. But fully drying out is taking forever.

John

 

[otherclive]

All that makes excellent sense. But my caravan did not play ball. 6 completly dry servicing years. Followed by the 7th with extensive floor damp. But walls all still dry. I had a lot of work done, but it would not dry out. I suspect this was because moisure was traped under the lino. If only manufacturers would fully bond the lino. I think there would be less problems. Perhaps they don't know about capilary attraction 🤭.

It might be that the sealing that was done has worked. But fully drying out is taking forever.

John

But how often were you checking it and where were you checking. Via my approach I found a leaky window seal in a 9 year old S5 Pageant Bordeaux. Cost to repair only £250 in 2014. Prior to that the caravan had never suffered damp.

 

[FORT]

Thanks everyone for great advice. Would aluminium framed be better than timber. Looked at a few Bailey Pageants around 2007 but if I stretched the budget to close to the 10k there are the 2010 pegasus that I believe are aluminum?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have usually suggested that new caravanners should steer clear of caravans with a history of damp especially from private sellers, This is because all to often unscrupulous sellers (and there are far too many of them) have failed to disclose a caravan's history or problem hoping to off load the timebomb onto unsuspecting novice buyers.

That might be doing a disservice to to the many honest sellers, but if novices are to be given safe advice, then being hard nosed about damp issues has got to be the sage approach.

But I have to acknowledge that a caravan with a damp history that has been repaired professionally properly could actually be a safer bet, but how is a novice going to be able to spot the difference?

Ultimately its the caravan manufacturers failure to make reliable caravans that has led to this level of uncertainty and the precariousness of the second hand market.

Cynically I do wonder if the manufacturers do so little to improve caravan design and construction to create opportunities for degradation or obsolescence to support the sale of new caravans.

 

[Jcloughie]

But how often were you checking it and where were you checking. Via my approach I found a leaky window seal in a 9 year old S5 Pageant Bordeaux. Cost to repair only £250 in 2014. Prior to that the caravan had never suffered damp.

By meter, only yearly. But constantly by observation.

Catching early has to be best. Without doubt. But mine had severe failure quickly. None in any wall. And everything smelt and felt fine, and still does acording to the new owners. I gave them my nice new meter with the van. I am not convinced that the repairer got it right. Just educated guesses.

John

 

[FORT]

So I've seen a 2010 Bailey Pegasus 514 locally for a reasonable price that I've enquired about. He mentioned they are prone to damp floors in the corners which this has in the rear left corner but only a few mm. He mentions it's not expensive to repair if required but so far has been no need and is happy for it to be inspected. My question is it a common issue, is it expensive etc. I will get it inspected but don't want to waste my money doing so if its a major issue to resolve. Thanks

 

[Dustydog]

The one Roger quotes looks good on line. So check out the FSH and annual damp surveys.If you think it fits the bill get an AWS engineer to give it a full survey on your behalf. He will tell you the truth so you buy or walk away! Good luck

 

[otherclive]

By meter, only yearly. But constantly by observation.

Catching early has to be best. Without doubt. But mine had severe failure quickly. None in any wall. And everything smelt and felt fine, and still does acording to the new owners. I gave them my nice new meter with the van. I am not convinced that the repairer got it right. Just educated guesses.

John

That’s the problem with damp is that it can get a good hold before you can see any visible signs, If you can smell it then you have a major problem.

 

[Dustydog]

That’s the problem with damp is that it can get a good hold before you can see any visible signs, If you can smell it then you have a major problem.

Construction has moved away from timbers to composites. This bond that bond alustik have been around a while now. Yes they still leak but where does the water ingress damage happen? The floor? Can damp readings be easily taken?

 

[otherclive]

Construction has moved away from timbers to composites. This bond that bond alustik have been around a while now. Yes they still leak but where does the water ingress damage happen? The floor? Can damp readings be easily taken?

Not easily, and for some modern construction techniques I understand that at service damp meter readings are not taken. Perhaps if we had fully impermeable floors water would just come in and exit without any damage 😱

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Fort,

The only way to know if a caravan is a sensible investment is to have it independently assessed by an AWS engineer. If there is any damp it needs to be inspected by someone who knows what to look for, and who can personally do the necessary checks, that's something we cannot do through a forum, it needs hands on inspection. Consequently no- one on the forum can put your mind at total rest.

Bear in mind it's in the dealers interests to move the caravan off his forecourt, so he is likely to paint a rosy picture, so you do need a professional unbiased opinion, especially as damp has already been found - and disclosed, but has it all been disclosed.

If it's such a simple job, ask yourself why hasn't the seller already had it repaired? It would needed a very hefty discount to sweeten the deal to take on an unknown damp repair.

You can never know how badly affected the structure is until the affected area has been fully exposed. And only then can a firm estimate of cost to repair can be made. An AWS inspection could save you buying a money pit.

 

[Woodentop]

A friend just down the road decided to give up caravanning in about March and sold his Bailey Pegasus GT85 over night for cash. In June they decided to get another van. They got a 2-berth Pegasus 462 2010 for less than 7K in very good condition. They have cleaned it inside and out and polished it and it looks like new. There are a few small items needing attention but the dealer says they can be easily sorted.
For the record the Bailey Pegasus was top of the range in 2010 but took second place when they introduced the Unicorn in 2011. As a result the Pegasus (of which we also had a 2010 462) had all the bells and whistles such as alarm, full Tracker, kitchen skylight extractor fan etc which are now in many cases (expensive) extras. The only downside was that it tended to be a bit nose heavy so putting a goodly part of the payload into the wardrobe in the end bathroom was necessary - and it never caused any tail-wag. There was an issue with damp in the front external outside lockers due to poor sealing on the grab handles but that was easily cured as was a bit of damp on the outside of the O/S/F corner of the floor.
Not having a 'toilet in the shower' does not mean you need an end bathroom. I think what SWMBO means is that she doesn't want a bathroom that has both a shower and toilet in it with the shower being isolated by a nylon curtain. Our present Bailey Unicorn S4 Seville has a toilet in the (rather cramped) bathroom but has a separate shower cubicle, The bathroom is fitted in the offside rear corner. The end bathroom in the 462 is big enough to hold a party!

 

[Beachball]

So I've seen a 2010 Bailey Pegasus 514 locally for a reasonable price that I've enquired about. He mentioned they are prone to damp floors in the corners which this has in the rear left corner but only a few mm. He mentions it's not expensive to repair if required but so far has been no need and is happy for it to be inspected. My question is it a common issue, is it expensive etc. I will get it inspected but don't want to waste my money doing so if its a major issue to resolve. Thanks

Before you have it inspected does it come with service history and is it stamped up also when was the damp check done what was the readings on the floor . and good luck

 

[otherclive]

So I've seen a 2010 Bailey Pegasus 514 locally for a reasonable price that I've enquired about. He mentioned they are prone to damp floors in the corners which this has in the rear left corner but only a few mm. He mentions it's not expensive to repair if required but so far has been no need and is happy for it to be inspected. My question is it a common issue, is it expensive etc. I will get it inspected but don't want to waste my money doing so if its a major issue to resolve. Thanks

Early Alutech did have that problem I think caused by condensation. Perhaps the Bailey Owners club could be a source of info. Other forums including CMHC seem to have quite a lot of posts discussing the alutech. But like so many not easy to come to a definitive view. An AWS technician may have an objective view based on a breadth of experience.