No new diesel cars after 2030

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JTQ

May 7, 2005
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I will consider myself blessed if it does impact on me, enough so to happily fund adapting. It's going to be others problem.

Where I can't see EVs working are for owners living in the terraced Edwardian streets, how is the recharging infrastructure going to get there?
Sorting out just one local, albeit a trunk road, to go through a tunnel has taken a decade to get tentative approval, how will the thousands of inner city roads ever get right through and finished with overnight charging points in 10 years, I suspect even the planning stage will not be completed? Where will people go during the work phase? Or should we just write off these people joining in?
Set up a "park, charge & ride" shuttle bus serving all these inner city homes from a rural park?
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Connecting up millions of homes would take many, many years. BTW what happens if you miscalculate and before you can get to a charging station your battery is flat and you are on a motorway?
A very, very long time ago I ran out of fuel due to forgetfulness. Never again! :D
 
Jun 20, 2005
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A lot happens in ten years.
Politicians come and go.
The world benchmark must be America, Russia, China and India. When they say go all electric ok. Otherwise imo it’s all lip service.
Realistically thanks to Covid we have seen a massive boom in the caravan industry.
The required electric charging station infrastructure, charge in say five minutes , is pie in the sky. If I had to commute daily say 80 miles then yes a cheapo sparky will do.
Maybe caravans are dead as tourers and we will see long range electric motor homes rise to the occasion.

Where does all this electricity come from???
 
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Did I read about a nuclear power station likely to get the go ahead, site of it more or less decided on but can’t remember where it is and also some about Rolls Royce being involved with 5 smaller nuclear stations, I may have imagined all this but I think it’s been in the recent news.

BP
 
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i also agree Beehpee i have seen it about nuclear power station that got the go ahead
Rolls Royce plans 16 mini- nuclear plants for Uk
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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I will consider myself blessed if it does impact on me, enough so to happily fund adapting. It's going to be others problem.

Where I can't see EVs working are for owners living in the terraced Edwardian streets, how is the recharging infrastructure going to get there?
Sorting out just one local, albeit a trunk road, to go through a tunnel has taken a decade to get tentative approval, how will the thousands of inner city roads ever get right through and finished with overnight charging points in 10 years, I suspect even the planning stage will not be completed? Where will people go during the work phase? Or should we just write off these people joining in?
Set up a "park, charge & ride" shuttle bus serving all these inner city homes from a rural park?

How time flies. Since 1991 there have been 51 proposals for moving the A303 away from Stonehenge. The tunnel option started to be pursued seriously in 1995. Dont worry though the Uk Infrastructure Commission will see it through to completion, probably before HMG reveals their "oven ready" proposals for care of the elderly.:devilish:
 
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Hinkley point is the site for nuclear station being built, not sure about the 5 smaller sites.

BP

With the exception of Hinckley C no nuclear plants have been given approval to proceed elsewhere. Ones in Wales, Cumbria and Gloucestershire have had the private companies withdraw. The risk versus rewards aren't in balance. Discussions are going ahead for a EDF Hinckley style plant to be built at Sizewell, but that was going to require considerable Chinese investment and input, and the deal was going to then let China build a plant in UK as a follow on. Clearly that approach has hurdles to overcome. The problem of having too many diverse types of reactor is that design, build and support costs are higher than if a single design were pursued. Just look at the plethora of reactor types built under the aegis of CEGB.

The Rolls Royce Small Modular Reactors has a certain logic as they could e built within facility just like those currently fitted to submarines and then transported to site for assembly and commissioning. Rolls Royce have many years experience in this technology.

But like the Stonehenge A303 tunnel (until this week) the UK has been unable to come to a decision regarding nuclear waste depository other than storing it in Cumbria, pending decision. If it takes neigh on 30 years to decide on a road scheme..........
 
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Mar 14, 2005
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Lets take some of the point raised already:-

The 2030 ban on new vehicle sales only applies to cars and vans whose motive power is solely derived from petrol or diesel. The ban on hybrids is due to follow in 2035. It should be remembered this is only the ban on new sales, it's not banning pre existing or second hand vehicles.

The ban is only for the sale of new cars and vans, the will still be many other vehicles like busses and lorries that will still need liquid fuel so diesel (perhaps less so petrol) will still be needed for several decades after 2030 or HGV's and other heavy vehicles. Many ships will still be using fuel oil. I do predict the cost of both Petrol and diesel will rise above the rate of inflation makinging far less economical than it now is to push more people towards EV's including HGV's , civil engineering and agricultural equipment.

The scaremongers are out again claiming there will be insufficient power generation or the grid will buckle under all this charging load.
There might be some shortfall in power generation, but there are moves to increase renewables ( which even presently can meet a very significant percentage of our electrical needs) and new Nuclear.-
The National grid has stated several times that it can presently cope even if all our road travel vehicles were to go EV.

Not enough charging points - A fair assessment to-day but even without government incentives, there are many companies and some councils who are actively adding charge points in many areas so the network is growing at an increasing rate. Don't forget that many people will be able to charge at home overnight (and I do recognise there are also many people who may not have a dedicated parking spot), and increasingly business are allowing employees to charge at work. Also the way battery development is going, we will see faster charger rates, and capacities that might mean many people will only need to charge once a week or fortnight.

It would be wrong to think of the way we use transport to day will necessarily be same in 10 years time, We may not all have dedicated personal vehicles, we may well use something more like a taxi service.

Which is worse for the environment ICE or Nuclear? I have absolutely no doubt that ICE is worse, becasue the pollution is liberated into the environment by each ICE vehicle and it spreads through the weather, where as Nuclear waste, whilst it is highly toxic, it is managed and contained in ways that would be impossible for ICE exhausts.

Concerns are often raised about the materials used in batteries, and the extraction morally wrong and hurting the environment. Whilst there may presently be some contentious practices, battery developers are seeking to eliminate those materials from batteries. Whilst I can't defend any of those, I would point out that it's only fair to look at the cost to people and the environment brought about by the extraction crude oil, its transportations and refining, and its distribution. Fossil fuels are not angelic either.

Doomsayers tell us that car batteries don't last long - Why is it that may battery manufacturers put surprisingly long warranties on them? Some are giving them 8 years ! Yes there have been a few models where battery life is less than ideal, but that is usually down to a poor management programme or lack of cooling. The evidence is that batteries do lose some capacity, but the rate of lose is lower than predicted so they are actually lasting considerably better than expected.

Concerns are raised about "piles of worn out batteries" Again the doomsayers fail to recognise that when a battery is no longer suited to use in a car, many can be repurposed into other needs for energy storage. Even if a battery is unusable the fact is the materials are highly recyclable, and we will see more recycling plants arriving to deal with them correctly.

Fossil fuels are still going to be available for may years to come as there are plenty of other devices (Which are not cars or vans) that use ICE.

It won't be our current normal - it will be a new normal, and we are getting plenty of practice at dealing with change, thanks to Covid.
 
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PTA

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Apparently Bentley welcome the prospect of a 2030 deadline.

So, an all electric Bentayga will be on my shortlist

...........probably. ;)
 
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In reality I think we are seeing the end of the touring caravan industry as in practical terms it’s very unlikely that a suitable EV will be available to tow the types and weights of caravans we have become accustomed to.
Even if EV’s became available then in the majority of cases I imagine you would still need to recharge at least once enroute to your chosen site. Bad enough finding a suitable area ofmotorways etc to have a break at the moment let along trying to get access to a charging point.
And when you have got to your desired location is the site going to have suitable charging facilities. I cannot see Club Sites being equipped let alone CLs or CS’s. I don’t think a 10 or 16 amp hook up going to do the job?

it’s clear the government don’t want a home holiday market - those people drawn to join our ranks since Covid changed flying and foreign holiday prospects, will be dumping their caravans and jetting off to god knows where. And of course those planes won’t be creating any pollution will they?

The solution as I see it will be for al the major SUV manufacturers and the like to produce hoards of new cars prior to 2030. The dealers to pre register these and we carry on purchasing these as new vehicles years and years after 2030. Work by the manufacturers and their dealer network could scupper the governments plans overnight.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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If someone does buy an EV in 2030 who pays for the electrical connection in the home to charge the vehicle?
IMHO will be dead before it even gets off the ground as people will switch to the more environmental friendly hydrogen car.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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If someone does buy an EV in 2030 who pays for the electrical connection in the home to charge the vehicle?
IMHO will be dead before it even gets off the ground as people will switch to the more environmental friendly hydrogen car.
At present there’s a grant towards the charging connection. But as uptake increases I’m sure that the grant will be reduced. But like solar panels when feed in tariffs were reduced there was an outcry and predictions that the industry would collapse. But in fact prices fir domestic panel installation came down. The problem with grants and subsidies is that they can inflate prices lining the pockets of the suppliers . Look at help to buy. Subsidies for wind power were successful in priming the market and as the scale of the industry grew the subsidies reduced as competing companies offered ever lower prices for generating the power. That worked but unfortunately British companies seemed unable to reap the manufacturing rewards as they did for North Sea oil.

So in answer to you question; I guess you will be buying the home EV charging point for your EV car should you go that way, and by then there will be no subsidy on the car although relative prices may come down.
 
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So in answer to you question; I guess you will be buying the home EV charging point for your EV car should you go that way, and by then there will be no subsidy on the car although relative prices may come down.
Thanks for the answer. Even if we were able to afford or wanted an EV, we would not be able to have a charging point installed.
 
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I’d quite look forward to an EV when range and ease of charging are better, which is already moving ahead quickly. The joy of much increased reliability, no cam belts, no dpf, injectors, glow plugs, twin clutch gearboxes, reduced servicing costs etc and rocket ship acceleration. Motoring heaven ?? 😀
 
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If someone does buy an EV in 2030 who pays for the electrical connection in the home to charge the vehicle?....
... Even if we were able to afford or wanted an EV, we would not be able to have a charging point installed.

Ultimately the consumer pays for everything, though presently there are various schemes offered by car manufacturers and the government to help towards teh cost of installing the charge point at your house.

There is no change to the electrical supply to your property, and so the charger current available at your charger would be unlikely to exceed 7.5kw.

If you wanted a more powerful charger, you would have to fund the uprating of your domestic supply. Some people may run some form of business from their home and may already have a 3 Phase supply which will allow a more powerful charger to be fitted.

Bearing in mind the average commute in the UK is a round trip of about 30miles a single phase charger will easily supply enough to recharge overnight.

There are very few situations with domestic ground floor dwellings where a charger could not be fitted.

IMHO will be dead before it even gets off the ground as people will switch to the more environmental friendly hydrogen car.

The principle reason the government is pushing this is to improve air quality by reducing the quantity of emissions produced by road vehicles. Initially this will will enacted for private cars and light vans, but progressively it will will expand include all major forms of road transport. I also suspect it will spill over into other forms of transport such a rail and water and Agriculture and Civil Engineering, and there are already practical examples of where Battery driven tractors and earth movers are being manufactured and sold.

The background to this is how efficient a vehicle is at deriving motive power from the energy it
is supplied with. The government https://www.google.com/search?q=ene...33i22i29i30.7951j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 points to figures like :-
Internal combustion engines typically 13%
Hydrogen powered 22%,
Battery-Electric 73%,

What I don't know is if this represents when the vehicles are moving or where it also includes stop start conditions. but despite this uncertainty there is a very clear picture that EV's have a distinct advantage overall.

It's worth noting teh inherent inefficiency of ICE would be the same if petrol or diesel were replaced by Hydrogen, so the hydrogen line refers to a fuel cell approach.

So just on vehicle energy efficiency EV's win.

But there are other considerations also:-.

No one has yet devised a simple and cheap way of producing hydrogen in the quantities that are needed to run a car. Presently it has to be done on an industrial scale, and the technology needed to compress and distribute hydrogen to filling stations where it needs to be stored is vastly expensive. Currently it is uneconomic, though that might change if there are any breakthroughs in producing Hydrogen, and I know there companies who are continuing to look at this.

It is possible to fuel an ICE type with hydrogen, but by doing so you still have all the moving mechanical parts of an engine with there frictional losses and lubricants and thermal considerations and their liability to failure just as much as a petroleum based engine. Another advantage of EV is the reduction of moving parts both in the motor and in the transmission. These typically need far less servicing, and run at lower temperatures, and don't produce any waste gasses or liquids.

It is comparatively easy to produce regenerative braking in an EV, something you can't do with ICE or a fuel cell. unless they use hybrid technology.

Hydrogen might have a place for fleet services such as busses or postal deliveries or taxi's where they operate from a central garage, but the cost of installing the hydrogen infra-structure, will be beaten every time by the lower cost of installing charging points for battery drives.

Until there is breakthrough in Hydrogen production and storage costs, I do not see a widespread future for Hydrogen private travel.
 
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Ultimately the consumer pays for everything, though presently there are various schemes offered by car manufacturers and the government to help towards teh cost of installing the charge point at your house.

There is no change to the electrical supply to your property, and so the charger current available at your charger would be unlikely to exceed 7.5kw.

If you wanted a more powerful charger, you would have to fund the uprating of your domestic supply. Some people may run some form of business from their home and may already have a 3 Phase supply which will allow a more powerful charger to be fitted.

Bearing in mind the average commute in the UK is a round trip of about 30miles a single phase charger will easily supply enough to recharge overnight.

There are very few situations with domestic ground floor dwellings where a charger could not be fitted.



The principle reason the government is pushing this is to improve air quality by reducing the quantity of emissions produced by road vehicles. Initially this will will enacted for private cars and light vans, but progressively it will will expand include all major forms of road transport. I also suspect it will spill over into other forms of transport such a rail and water and Agriculture and Civil Engineering, and there are already practical examples of where Battery driven tractors and earth movers are being manufactured and sold.

The background to this is how efficient a vehicle is at deriving motive power from the energy it
is supplied with. The government https://www.google.com/search?q=ene...33i22i29i30.7951j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 points to figures like :-
Internal combustion engines typically 13%
Hydrogen powered 22%,
Battery-Electric 73%,

What I don't know is if this represents when the vehicles are moving or where it also includes stop start conditions. but despite this uncertainty there is a very clear picture that EV's have a distinct advantage overall.

It's worth noting teh inherent inefficiency of ICE would be the same if petrol or diesel were replaced by Hydrogen, so the hydrogen line refers to a fuel cell approach.

So just on vehicle energy efficiency EV's win.

But there are other considerations also:-.

No one has yet devised a simple and cheap way of producing hydrogen in the quantities that are needed to run a car. Presently it has to be done on an industrial scale, and the technology needed to compress and distribute hydrogen to filling stations where it needs to be stored is vastly expensive. Currently it is uneconomic, though that might change if there are any breakthroughs in producing Hydrogen, and I know there companies who are continuing to look at this.

It is possible to fuel an ICE type with hydrogen, but by doing so you still have all the moving mechanical parts of an engine with there frictional losses and lubricants and thermal considerations and their liability to failure just as much as a petroleum based engine. Another advantage of EV is the reduction of moving parts both in the motor and in the transmission. These typically need far less servicing, and run at lower temperatures, and don't produce any waste gasses or liquids.

It is comparatively easy to produce regenerative braking in an EV, something you can't do with ICE or a fuel cell. unless they use hybrid technology.

Hydrogen might have a place for fleet services such as busses or postal deliveries or taxi's where they operate from a central garage, but the cost of installing the hydrogen infra-structure, will be beaten every time by the lower cost of installing charging points for battery drives.

Until there is breakthrough in Hydrogen production and storage costs, I do not see a widespread future for Hydrogen private travel.
Evening Prof
We’ve done this debate to death over the years.
Technology is moving at a pace way beyond my comprehension. Remember the Eagle comic and Man On The Moon!
I am struggling to understand how any Government, all here for the short stay, can so categorically write off an entire Industry, caravans, sites and all the supplementary supporting businesses etc just to, be green. My Wife‘s Kia diesel is tax free it is so clean 👍. Have we taken the he wrong fork or maybe missed the crossroads?
 
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This drive for lower emissions has two thrusts. One for cleaner exhaust emmisions (particles and NOX) which should bring health benefits particularly in cities or areas adjacent to heavy traffic flows. An EU6 diesel has good performance in this respect. How long it will take for health data to show an improvement I don’t know but where traffic has been reduced outside of schools benefits have been seen quite quickly in pupils with asthma.

The second thrust is to reduce CO2 to combat global warming. Whilst IC engines have got more efficient net vehicle emissions have increased. Hence the EU legislation embodied in U.K. law to progressively reduce CO2 which follows through from agreements made at the various Climate Change Conferences.

Of the two thrusts I would see the efforts to tackle climate change as being the more important to many more people than PM/NOX. and I’m considering global communities around the world as well as the world we leave to our children and those not yet borne. Unfortunately it’s we who have to start to respond to the problem. Before anyone says “ what about China?” In 2018 of 425000 electric buses worldwide 421000 were in China. The USA had 300 electric buses. The Chinese drive to reduce the growth of C02 is remarkable even as their economy continues to expand. Their figures on EV cars are just as astonishing.
 
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Before anyone says “ what about China?” In 2018 of 425000 electric buses worldwide 421000 were in China. The USA had 300 electric buses. The Chinese drive to reduce the growth of C02 is remarkable even as their economy continues to expand. Their figures on EV cars are just as astonishing.

Which is impressive, However, how are the busses charged?

See here.

Two sides to every coin🥴


John
 
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Which is impressive, However, how are the busses charged?

See here.

Two sides to every coin🥴


John
I’ve not opened the link but I bet it’s about coal power stations. But I did say it was still a developing economy. Look at the Chinese rate of building nuclear plants and solar plants and their declared programme for reducing reliance on coal.

Edit The link will not open using Safari. “URL not found”
 
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Which is impressive, However, how are the busses charged?

See here.

Two sides to every coin🥴


John
It's not perfect I know, And its not as simple as your suggestion makes out. The emissions from a power station have rather different properties to those from and ICE. When fuels are burnt in highly compressed states (A la ICE) the products contain a of smaller and potentially more harmful particulates. I'm not claiming the flue gases from a power station are clean, but they are less harmful than those from ICE., And the overall efficiencies in power stations mean that for the same distance travelled the emissions will be lower than for the equivalent ICE.
 
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I’ve not opened the link but I bet it’s about coal power stations. But I did say it was still a developing economy. Look at the Chinese rate of building nuclear plants and solar plants and their declared programme for reducing reliance on coal.

Edit The link will not open using Safari. “URL not found”

Don‘t know why that link did not work. Hope this one does.

You are correct, it’s about coal fired power stations but also their abandonment of their own climate policies.

But of course it could well be a false and jaundiced view, I don’t know, but it makes the point that there are indeed more than one way of looking at things.

John

PS it works now, don’t know why it didn’t before.
 
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It's not perfect I know, And its not as simple as your suggestion makes out. The emissions from a power station have rather different properties to those from and ICE. When fuels are burnt in highly compressed states (A la ICE) the products contain a of smaller and potentially more harmful particulates. I'm not claiming the flue gases from a power station are clean, but they are less harmful than those from ICE., And the overall efficiencies in power stations mean that for the same distance travelled the emissions will be lower than for the equivalent ICE.

I wasn’t suggesting anything except what I stated about there being differing points of views.

John
 

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