Not a happy Swift owner

[jag.19v]

Hello again everyone, and thank you for your comments.

There's been a major development! I had a call today, from a nice young man in the dealers service department. He said: "can you get your keys to me asap so we can have a look and let you know what's wrong". Their customer service has now gone up a million % in my estimation.

I wonder why they are suddenly so keen to get on with it? I know Swift read this forum, but do "said" dealer read it as well? At this rate I'll not be naming and shaming, but naming and praising. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Parksy]

I hope that the problems are resolved to your satisfaction Andy, it might help if you make a written list of the problems and go over them with the dealers representative.

You will both then know exactly what has been agreed to, who pays for what and there will be no room for excuses or misunderstandings.

Although this forum and most others (but less obviously so) operate under constraints on the naming of service providers in connection with complaints a forum post which gives details of a problem can still be very effective.

Internet forums are slowly but surely raising the bar for caravan manufacturers and service providers alike.

Build quality, equipment levels and actual methods of construction have vastly improved since caravan users and buyers began to exchange information on the internet via forums such as this one.

Consumer rights awareness has increased for the caravan buying public and problems can now be resolved more easily because of access to the vast pool of experience available on forums.

Swift Group pioneered caravan forum participation followed closely by Bailey Caravans.

We have in a relatively short time reached the point where Swift host their own forum through which problems with their products can be addressed directly to the manufacturer.

Customers have reaped the benefit from this direct interface and so have manufacturers who gain an instant ready made focus group who test their products in real time which identifies trends, desirability of products and problems without having to employ market research or wait for dealer network feedback.

 

[Guest]

Very nice comments Parksy.

However, they paint a rather rosy picture that seems to 'sidestep' the main thrust of the arguments.

The moderators of this Forum have repeatedly stated that any complaints are between customer and dealer, ONLY and that the manufacturer has no obligation. Some of us feel that as the 'creator' of the product it seems ludicrous that a manufacturer cannot be directly involved with any subsequent complaints, and to my mind, by getting involved with Forums the manufacturers are finally recognising that the existing set up is not working. Of course if many, but not all, of them would actually answer the communications addressed to them, then many problems would never even reach the stage of a Forum insertion.

There is also the point to consider that by publicising 'complaints' named manufacturers become aware of problems far more rapidly and by effectively stifling this, the PC Forum is not being proactive towards the very caravanners whom they profess to represent.

Nobody is suggesting for a moment a scenario composed of slander and innuendo, but if a customer feels they have a valid complaint and the normal channels of communication have drawn a blank, it seems sensible to request 3rd parties to try and assist. As an example I draw your attention to the various financial 'agony' columns in newspapers which seem to produce 'miraculous' results for frustrated customers. The power of the Press is indeed great, so why not use it? I have yet to see any litigation being addressed to these publications so I suspect Haymarket's fear on that score is misplaced. I am not suggesting for a moment that Haymarket appoints its own 'agony aunt', unless you are volunteering, but a more balanced approach may pay dividends. As an evaluator PC Magazine has a unique position within the caravan industry, which would carry far more weight if it was also perceived as being judgemental and this would pay dividends for both good suppliers and customers.

Far better for producers of substandard products and service to be identified sooner, rather than after many people have had their dreams shattered. Customers who receive support from a manufacturer will be repeat customers regardless of the inadequacies of a 'point of sale'. In politics I know it is accepted that 'any publicity is good publicity' but in the real commercial world we all know that is not the case. Just ask Gerald Ratner.

These are just my opinions based on 40 years commercial experience, but I accept others may disagree.

 

[Kelly_374557048]

JGZ yes, an e-mail address please. Would be good. Thanks

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy

Excellent eloquence in particular:-

Customers have reaped the benefit from this direct interface and so have manufacturers who gain an instant ready made focus group who test their products in real time which identifies trends, desirability of products and problems without having to employ market research or wait for dealer network feedback.

Swift have grasped the ever recurring Hartal door lock problem and are taking the matter up with their suppliers. They promise a statement soon on the outcome.

Well done Swift.

I hope Bailey et al do similar. See Swift Talk for more details.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Parksy]

Very nice comments Parksy.

However, they paint a rather rosy picture that seems to 'sidestep' the main thrust of the arguments.

The moderators of this Forum have repeatedly stated that any complaints are between customer and dealer, ONLY and that the manufacturer has no obligation. Some of us feel that as the 'creator' of the product it seems ludicrous that a manufacturer cannot be directly involved with any subsequent complaints, and to my mind, by getting involved with Forums the manufacturers are finally recognising that the existing set up is not working. Of course if many, but not all, of them would actually answer the communications addressed to them, then many problems would never even reach the stage of a Forum insertion.

There is also the point to consider that by publicising 'complaints' named manufacturers become aware of problems far more rapidly and by effectively stifling this, the PC Forum is not being proactive towards the very caravanners whom they profess to represent.

Nobody is suggesting for a moment a scenario composed of slander and innuendo, but if a customer feels they have a valid complaint and the normal channels of communication have drawn a blank, it seems sensible to request 3rd parties to try and assist. As an example I draw your attention to the various financial 'agony' columns in newspapers which seem to produce 'miraculous' results for frustrated customers. The power of the Press is indeed great, so why not use it? I have yet to see any litigation being addressed to these publications so I suspect Haymarket's fear on that score is misplaced. I am not suggesting for a moment that Haymarket appoints its own 'agony aunt', unless you are volunteering, but a more balanced approach may pay dividends. As an evaluator PC Magazine has a unique position within the caravan industry, which would carry far more weight if it was also perceived as being judgemental and this would pay dividends for both good suppliers and customers.

Far better for producers of substandard products and service to be identified sooner, rather than after many people have had their dreams shattered. Customers who receive support from a manufacturer will be repeat customers regardless of the inadequacies of a 'point of sale'. In politics I know it is accepted that 'any publicity is good publicity' but in the real commercial world we all know that is not the case. Just ask Gerald Ratner.

These are just my opinions based on 40 years commercial experience, but I accept others may disagree.

Scotch Lad

I had submitted a post in answer to your criticisms but for some reason I lost most of it when I went into the moderator edit to put right a technical problem with it. I'll try to re post it later on.

 

[Guest]

Parksy. My synpathies. There is nothing more frustrating to have composed what you feel is excellent prose, and you either delete it, or lose it. The 2nd effort never seems to be as good.

Please do not be concerned. With all this damn snow lying around nobody, at least up here, is going anywhere in a hurry. Also as it melts the ground is going to be sodden for a while. Just as well I had not planned to go away for Easter, but I do hope to maybe do so next week for the 1st trip of the season. My wife tells me it is all my fault, again, as I took the cover of the van last week.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Scotch Lad

This is my second attempt, at least it's kept me indoors to warm up after washing our caravan!

Your recent post seems to address the points that you think that I've missed but I'm afraid that you may be labouring under some slight misconceptions.

Please forgive me for quoting parts of your earlier post but in order to answer the points that you made I will quote your own point and try to answer it.

You opened your argument by saying that my comments 'paint a rosy picture that seems to sidestep the main thrust of the arguments'

I'm ever the optimist so perhaps one day my purple prose will win me a highly paid position in advertising!

I will use your own words taken from the post that you made to try to provide some answers.

You wrote:

'The moderators of this Forum have repeatedly stated that any complaints are between customer and dealer, ONLY and that the manufacturer has no obligation'

It's a fact that in consumer law a contract of sale only exists between the vendor and the consumer so in our case this is between a dealership or private individual vendor and a caravan buyer. In law the manufacturer indeed has no obligation. Moderators and forum members conversant with the SOGA and consumer rights often state this because it's a fact whether we agree with it or not. If our desire is to help an aggrieved caravanner we are bound to let him or her know that their starting point to get anything done has to be the vendor which in most cases is the supplying dealer.

'Some of us feel that as the 'creator' of the product it seems ludicrous that a manufacturer cannot be directly involved with any subsequent complaints, and to my mind, by getting involved with Forums the manufacturers are finally recognising that the existing set up is not working. Of course if many, but not all, of them would actually answer the communications addressed to them, then many problems would never even reach the stage of a Forum insertion.'

The manufacturer can be directly involved in subsequent complaints but only if they themselves choose to be involved. We can't force them to take part or become involved.

I completely agree that those manufacturers or service providers who chose to get involved with forums are recognising that there has to be a better way to treat their customers.

'There is also the point to consider that by publicising 'complaints' named manufacturers become aware of problems far more rapidly and by effectively stifling this, the PC Forum is not being proactive towards the very caravanners whom they profess to represent.'

I'm sorry Scotch Lad but I strongly disagree with the latter part of this statement. Manufacturers do indeed become aware of problems far more rapidly through forum participation which is exactly what I wrote in my earlier post which painted a what you described as a 'rosy picture'.

Practical Caravan forum has never knowingly stifled complaints about caravans in which manufacturers are named. A casual browse around most sections of this forum will prove beyond doubt that complaints in which manufacturers are named are regularly aired and along with Caravan Talk forum Practical Caravan forum was amongst the first to welcome and encourage forum participation by caravan manufacturers. We continue to actively support and encourage forum participation by manufacturers, dealers, site owners and indeed any representative of a service provider in connection with leisure caravan usage.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Scotch Lad

This is my second attempt, at least it's kept me indoors to warm up after washing our caravan!

Your recent post seems to address the points that you think that I've missed but I'm afraid that you may be labouring under some slight misconceptions.

Please forgive me for quoting parts of your earlier post but in order to answer the points that you made I will quote your own point and try to answer it.

You opened your argument by saying that my comments 'paint a rosy picture that seems to sidestep the main thrust of the arguments'

I'm ever the optimist so perhaps one day my purple prose will win me a highly paid position in advertising!

I will use your own words taken from the post that you made to try to provide some answers.

You wrote:

'The moderators of this Forum have repeatedly stated that any complaints are between customer and dealer, ONLY and that the manufacturer has no obligation'

It's a fact that in consumer law a contract of sale only exists between the vendor and the consumer so in our case this is between a dealership or private individual vendor and a caravan buyer. In law the manufacturer indeed has no obligation. Moderators and forum members conversant with the SOGA and consumer rights often state this because it's a fact whether we agree with it or not. If our desire is to help an aggrieved caravanner we are bound to let him or her know that their starting point to get anything done has to be the vendor which in most cases is the supplying dealer.

'Some of us feel that as the 'creator' of the product it seems ludicrous that a manufacturer cannot be directly involved with any subsequent complaints, and to my mind, by getting involved with Forums the manufacturers are finally recognising that the existing set up is not working. Of course if many, but not all, of them would actually answer the communications addressed to them, then many problems would never even reach the stage of a Forum insertion.'

The manufacturer can be directly involved in subsequent complaints but only if they themselves choose to be involved. We can't force them to take part or become involved.

I completely agree that those manufacturers or service providers who chose to get involved with forums are recognising that there has to be a better way to treat their customers.

'There is also the point to consider that by publicising 'complaints' named manufacturers become aware of problems far more rapidly and by effectively stifling this, the PC Forum is not being proactive towards the very caravanners whom they profess to represent.'

I'm sorry Scotch Lad but I strongly disagree with the latter part of this statement. Manufacturers do indeed become aware of problems far more rapidly through forum participation which is exactly what I wrote in my earlier post which painted a what you described as a 'rosy picture'.

Practical Caravan forum has never knowingly stifled complaints about caravans in which manufacturers are named. A casual browse around most sections of this forum will prove beyond doubt that complaints in which manufacturers are named are regularly aired and along with Caravan Talk forum Practical Caravan forum was amongst the first to welcome and encourage forum participation by caravan manufacturers. We continue to actively support and encourage forum participation by manufacturers, dealers, site owners and indeed any representative of a service provider in connection with leisure caravan usage.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I will not make any further comment as I do not wish to impede your impending trip, and hope that it is an enjoyable one.

Let me just say that we can agree to disagree.

 

[paul_374239978]

having over the months read several tales of woe from dissapointed new and indeed used van owners, would it not have been sensible for the purchaser to pay part of the price (min

 

[Huw_374475043]

This is of great interest to me, as it tallies with my own experience of trying to get warranty work done recently. The nearest approved dealer to me couldn't look at the problem on my van for 3 months when I enquired and the saga with my current dealer is detailed in another thread on here. I have been told by various people that this is 'the norm' - is this the case in other readers experience?

I have a reputation as a consumer rights campaigner and broadcaster (and am not bound by the - quite understandable - constraints that Haymarket are under) so would be interested in taking this a bit further.

Would I be allowed to place an email address on here that people could contact me on with aftersales/warranty woes?

Thanks in advance.

I am in agreement with you about obtaining information about dealers and manufacturers re warranty work. I have kicked around the same idea on another forum. To contact others within this forum is difficult and you may have to look at others to achieve you goal

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Paul,

Whilst in theory using a credit card to undertake part of the purchase would cause the credit card company to become involved, you would have to see the terms and conditions of your card provider to see if their liability is is invoked for partial purchases.

 

[jag.19v]

Hello again everyone.

Further to the my previous posts, the dealer inspected my 'van, took it into their workshop and repaired it! They then placed it back in their storage compound for me. How's that for customer service. A million percent improvement.

I don't know what prompted their sudden urgency, but I am very grateful to staff at Lowdham Leisurworld for sorting out a potentially dangerous fault. In reply to previous posts that is why I keep going back to buy from them, because when do pull out the stops they can do it.

I suppose I will now be torn to shreds by the forum "wolves" for "jumping the queue" or something similar, but I still believe manufacturers and dealers should prioritize warranty work. Had it been a broken flyscreen or something trivial I would expect to wait my turn, but a fault that could have destroyed the 'van is, I think, I bit more urgent.

I've now changed from "not a happy Swift owner" to a happy one. Well done LL.

 

[JGX]

Hi there,

Following my above post, could you please send any tales of woe to:

caravanservicestories@googlemail.com

Please try to be as specific as possible - naming dealers (contact numbers if possible), year, model and make of van and also state if the faults/problems were resolved to your satisfaction or whether they are still on-going.

A website should hopefully be online in the next month or so which will allow us to take matters further and heighten this issue.

Thanks in advance for the Mod's understanding on this and I appreciate your letting me place the email address on here.

JGX

 

[JGX]

Hello again everyone.

Further to the my previous posts, the dealer inspected my 'van, took it into their workshop and repaired it! They then placed it back in their storage compound for me. How's that for customer service. A million percent improvement.

I don't know what prompted their sudden urgency, but I am very grateful to staff at Lowdham Leisurworld for sorting out a potentially dangerous fault. In reply to previous posts that is why I keep going back to buy from them, because when do pull out the stops they can do it.

I suppose I will now be torn to shreds by the forum "wolves" for "jumping the queue" or something similar, but I still believe manufacturers and dealers should prioritize warranty work. Had it been a broken flyscreen or something trivial I would expect to wait my turn, but a fault that could have destroyed the 'van is, I think, I bit more urgent.

I've now changed from "not a happy Swift owner" to a happy one. Well done LL.

Glad to see all was resolved Andy - this is what Customer Service SHOULD be!

Have a great BH weekend.

 

[Dustydog]

Are you only interested in tales of woe?

I firmly believe there should be a table of the goodie two shoes so us poor punters can at least spend our hard earned cash with a company who will make owning a caravan a pleasure rather than a disaster.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[JGX]

Dustydog,

Yes, the idea is that ideally the site will end up like the JD Power of the caravan world with the 'heroes and villains' receiving equal treatment. At the offset, however, we need starting point ammunition to go to the dealers and manufacturers and say "these are the problems we are getting in trying to get our caravans fixed in a reasonable amount of time, what do you intend to do about it?"

The only reason that car manufacturing standards have improved in recent times is because of the massive growth in car magazines, newspapers and TV programmes where poor service or bad design is absolutely not tolerated. This simply doesn't happen in the caravan world, there's no 'Honest John' no 'Agony Aunt's Corner' and so the idea is to create a totally independent channel, free from the constraints of advertising pressures, to fight the corner of the caravanner at the coal-face.

JGX

 

[Guest]

Sounds an excellent idea. Nobody is wishing to just shout for the sake of it, but unless some pressure is put on dealers and mnaufacturers who are not giving an expected service, then the customer loses all round. It is also not good for us as a nation as it makes more and more people buy elsewhere and, as I fully admit to being one, it was because the UK market just did not offer anything like what I wished, and the European one did. Plus, I can also admit that after 5 years the product is as good as new (well, almost as I did break the odd thing). I just note how many UK manufacturers sell models overseas, that are not changed so much to suit the market that they are unrecognisable from what is available here. In the other direction usually the addition of a stupid oven is all that it takes.

Forums do try hard but as the owners are usually funded by the industry they are obviously not independent.

I wish you well in your endeavours. By the way, how do you intend to get round the issue mentioned by Parksy, namely being chased by litigation?

 

[JGX]

Hi Scotch Lad,

The answer to your question about litigation always arises at the start of every campaign that I've been involved in and so long as one strictly adheres to the rule "veracity is an absolute defence" then you are immune from litigation.

The idea is to broadcast well researched, well documented, LEGITIMATE complaints. If someone approaches me and their complaint is no more than "XYZ Caravans of Anytown are a bunch of crooks", then their complaint will be filed straight into the trash folder. If someone, however, approaches me with the complaint that "ZYX Caravans of Yourtown have failed to carry out my repairs, here are the letters I've sent to them, these are the calls they've ignored" then I can look into it and if the case warrants further investigation and subsequent broadcasting.

I've been a consumer rights campaigner for some time now - I have the ear of national news networks (TV, Radio & press) and regularly broadcast or write articles for them. I firmly believe that this is a case that needs to and should well be highlighted. But it can only be highlighted with the support and help of fellow caravanners. I appreciate that there are a very great number of dealers and manufacturers out there who give an outstanding level of service and they must be congratulated but, conversely, there are a number who routinely give appalling service and it it they who must be wheedled out and told that they cannot continue to do so for the sake of us all.

Jonathan Greatorex AKA JGX

 

[Douglas_374404558]

HI! Andy get onto the Swift forum i had a few teething problems with my van ,can,t praise Swift highly enough they have been absaluitly brilliant with technical help .well done Andy,Ash and forgot the rest of the guys names. give it a try.

cheers Duggie

 

[Guest]

Jonathan,

As mentioned good luck with what you are trying. However, you will have to be careful in editing your dossier, even apart from the usual 'I hate Bloggs & Co because..'

All businesses have good and bad periods or even instances. I could praise a dealer to the rooftops because i did indeed get excellent service,. however the next day somebody else may get the bloke who is having a very bad day because his wife has just left him, and his enthusiasm is really not into ensuring your brakes are correct. Once he has resolved his personal problems, then the work may be back to standard. You will need to find repeated instances to justify that any business, as a whole is not up to par, and if possible try and track it down to individuals to see if that is possibly where the problem lies. We need all the available enterprises to support us, so just condemning them is not necessarily good for us all.

One area you could also look at, if it is within your remit, is the actual Service Schedule offered to caravanners. Bluntly it is not a Service Schedule at all, merely a box ticking exercise and an expensive one at that. Even our motorhome friends do not have it, theirs is called a Habitation Check, which sums it up a lot more accurately. To my mind having to pay someone to tell me that ' my toilet flap is working' is not something I see value in. I would rather pay for the relevant work to be done more effectively.

Anyway, as mentioned, good luck

 

[JGX]

Hi Scotch Lad,

Thanks for you kind words of support, if you are able, send me an email on the above address, I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts.

Re the"off day" - this is the thing I find difficult to deal with. When one is paying good money for a service, there should be no 'off days'. Away from caravaning and campaigning, I am a pilot, and even if the wife has kicked you out, the bank repossesed the house and the mistress in a strop - an 'off day' is out of the question and as such I have little tollerance for poor standards in any area where I am paying for work to be done.

Regards,

JGX

PS Apologies in advance if this post (or any others over the next few days) appears a bit strangely - am posting from my mobile and this forum seems not to like such instruments!!!

 

[stationmaster1]

I can confirm that my "well known East Nottingham Dealer" has not improved it's customer service one iota, its now May 2012 and I am having problems in getting warranty work carried out on my 2011 Challenger 530. I have found that Customer Service Staff do not appear to have much knowledge about caravans and/or caravanning, they make promises to deal with a problem or contact you with information and never ring back and their management seem totally dis-interested in customer complaints. I would also add the Swift are not much better either!

 

[forestgump]

thats why i didnot buy another swift?