Interesting how partial blame can be attributed to the hgv driver. so here is a scenario it happens daily you don't see it yourself mind but it does effect you. its called the knock on effect... thousands of vehicles each day wait till the last moment to switch lane push in so to speak because they cannot be bothered to queue like most do in slow moving traffic,unlike that caravaner most get away with it , often an innocent party further back in the queue is effected ,it does lead to shunts and longer stationary queues for everyone and you can argue everyone is responsible for their own actions. ie the shunts further back in the queue due to everyone having to break hard..but by the same token the caravaner in the clip is entirely responsible for his action and that accident. he knows exactly what he was doing .sad thing i bet even now he thinks it wasn't his fault...
yes Jonny it does happen everyday, and yes such inconsiderate drivers should be flogged at dawn, but there is such a thing as defensive driving ,[not letting some other idiot involve you in a accident] the caravanner is clearly one of the must in front of one more vehicle type, and should have got in lane long before the road split. but equally the van [or whatever it was driver] is one of those aggressive I'm not letting you in types, clearly depicted by the speeding up when the van was almost past and the colourful language at the end, you know the type don't care if you hit me as long as it's your fault. defensive driving is a lost art I'm afraid, everyone's in so much hurry, if the totally innocent [according to you] HGV driver had backed off when he saw the unit coming alongside with indicator on, " he did I assume SEE him in the mirrors, the incident would not have happened, so partial blame on him absolutely yes.JonnyG said:
5o / 5o blame . They both could off avoided the collision
with a bit common sense . Some right tools on the road these days !
with a bit common sense . Some right tools on the road these days !
I was going to try and edit out the bad language but failed 
hmy:
Assuming the guy filming it was an HGV driver then he should be ashamed of himself.
He's a tailgater and that kind of creeping up then braking is exactly what Jonny refers to. Some other person down the line gets caught up probably through their own fault.
Overall some abysmal driving. I guess the blokes blood pressure was sky high. The caravanner needs education too.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Why is it so many people don't want to give way. It's not like it's going to delay your journey B)
hmy:Assuming the guy filming it was an HGV driver then he should be ashamed of himself.
He's a tailgater and that kind of creeping up then braking is exactly what Jonny refers to. Some other person down the line gets caught up probably through their own fault.
Overall some abysmal driving. I guess the blokes blood pressure was sky high. The caravanner needs education too.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Why is it so many people don't want to give way. It's not like it's going to delay your journey B)
As one of the guys who would have sorted this out the answer is the caravan driver is entirely to blame. The lorry driver is in the correct lane and driving correctly. The caravan driver has left getting in lane far too late and has absolutely no right to pull in front of the lorry. When entering another lane it is entirely your duty to make sure it is safe to do so and if it is not you do not do it.
The lorry driver is under no duty legally to slow down and indeed if the caravan driver had realised he could not get in and braked to try and get behind it would only make the matter worse.
As for the query about shunts further back if someone pulls in and causes emergency braking further back it is the duty of a driver to be at a sufficient distance behind to allow you to stop if the driver ahead stops. If you cannot do this the fault is yours.
The lorry driver is under no duty legally to slow down and indeed if the caravan driver had realised he could not get in and braked to try and get behind it would only make the matter worse.
As for the query about shunts further back if someone pulls in and causes emergency braking further back it is the duty of a driver to be at a sufficient distance behind to allow you to stop if the driver ahead stops. If you cannot do this the fault is yours.
Yes from insurance claim, the blame would be with caravan.Raywood said:
Raywood said:
Yes
Raywood said:
Yes
Raywood said:
Yes
Raywood said:
Wrong. It states in the highway code that all road users have a duty of care to avoid accidents and possible harm to others. This includes braking if some idiot cuts up in front of you.
tenpole said:
I am not sure that everything in the Hghway Code is in fact the law of the land, but I tend to agree that the lorry driver was guilty of driving without due care and attention. From the video I got the distinct impression that he deliberately increased his speed to keep the caravaner from passing him which ended up in the collision.
not far from where I live, is the main M1/M62 junction, millions of pounds has been spent on it with years of development to make it flow smooth, for 2 miles in any direction there are signs up telling you which lanes are which, and overhead markers telling you to get into lane from 1 mile out, yet where is the most lane changing done, [THE LAST 200 YARDS] it's like wacky racers at peak times, everyone does it, HGV's, coaches, white van man, solo cars, van towers, BMW drivers, and yes even police cars, it is the way people drive these days, no forethought at all, regarding the scenario posted, if one didn't expect this and lift off to let the morons in there would be a collision there every 10 minutes,
for Ray I say this it may not be one of the ten commandments to give way, when things like this happen BUT I will keep your comments in mind next time a HGV comes off a slip road with indicator on and no intention of stopping, while I'm rolling along in the inside lane, with nowhere to go, just keep going at the same speed, don't slow down to let him in, or move over to middle lane, then if he runs over my car it's his fault, 100% should be quite comforting to the kids to know it wasn't my fault while they are lowering the pine box into the ground.
for Ray I say this it may not be one of the ten commandments to give way, when things like this happen BUT I will keep your comments in mind next time a HGV comes off a slip road with indicator on and no intention of stopping, while I'm rolling along in the inside lane, with nowhere to go, just keep going at the same speed, don't slow down to let him in, or move over to middle lane, then if he runs over my car it's his fault, 100% should be quite comforting to the kids to know it wasn't my fault while they are lowering the pine box into the ground.
SteveW77 said:
The Highway code is what a judge will consult in a court of law. Change the scenario and have a kid in the back seat, glass in his face and permanently blinded for life. It would end up in court. You think a judge is going to be ok that the hgv COULD HAVE prevented the accident caused by idiot caravan driver but chose not too.
Edit: As Colin has said before I read his comment.
So what if the caravan towing driver was slightly over the drink drive limit so that his judgement was impaired?
The video clip is exactly the same .......you just have one extra piece of information to add to the scenario you are judging from the advantage of hindsight.
The video clip is exactly the same .......you just have one extra piece of information to add to the scenario you are judging from the advantage of hindsight.
Gafferbill said:
I don't understand the relevance of this other than it would explain his poor driving.
........the relevance is that in order to make an accurate judgement you have to be in possession of all the facts.
You can have the opinion that the driver with the camera was not observing the two second rule but that driver would point to the fact that he was in slowing moving congested traffic and he was maintaining progress where he could.
The car driver in the picture was also being squeezed and he clearly escaped the collision by accelerating away from danger. There is evidence that the driver with the camera tried to do the same.
The collision took place because two drivers wanted to place their vehicle on the same piece of road at the same time and a court would decide which driver had a right in law to that piece of road.
Ray has already explained the decision that any insurance assessor would have made and that would also be the decision taken by any court.
The towing driver entered prohibited road space as indicated by the road makings and the driver with the camera underestimated just how much of a suicidal driver he was contending with and by the time he realised, it was too late. He was definitely braking during the last moments because the actual collision was at a slow speed or it would have been much more violent.
You can have the opinion that the driver with the camera was not observing the two second rule but that driver would point to the fact that he was in slowing moving congested traffic and he was maintaining progress where he could.
The car driver in the picture was also being squeezed and he clearly escaped the collision by accelerating away from danger. There is evidence that the driver with the camera tried to do the same.
The collision took place because two drivers wanted to place their vehicle on the same piece of road at the same time and a court would decide which driver had a right in law to that piece of road.
Ray has already explained the decision that any insurance assessor would have made and that would also be the decision taken by any court.
The towing driver entered prohibited road space as indicated by the road makings and the driver with the camera underestimated just how much of a suicidal driver he was contending with and by the time he realised, it was too late. He was definitely braking during the last moments because the actual collision was at a slow speed or it would have been much more violent.
one thing you cannot see on that video is a rear view, now our lorries come with front, side and rear camera's we have hard drives fitted so the filming can be kept for weeks .. now that stretch of M6, well until a few months back it was a nightmare more so than normal. it is just where traffic staying on the M6 starts to speed up from its crawling speeds of the prior several miles.. so what we have is the chap towing is actually slowing down to an almost crawl in a lane where cars are travelling at 50 to 60 mph.!, now it might only be me, but even if he hadn't hit the lorry he was already driving with out undue car who knows its almost reckless. sorry he shouldn't be allowed out on the roads and with a bit of luck i hope that's what happened ..
Ray and Bill are correct from a legal liability point of view but I still believe some contributory negligence rests with the driver who didn't yield.
Yes the caravan driver clearly didn't use mirrors nor did he have any spacial awareness so he is 100%.
But I may try and say 20 % liability rests with the guy who wouldn't let the caravan in. However what you can't see is if the camera guy knew the caravan was trying to change lane.
Excluding the camera evidence the caravan guy is 100% liable imo.
Yes the caravan driver clearly didn't use mirrors nor did he have any spacial awareness so he is 100%.
But I may try and say 20 % liability rests with the guy who wouldn't let the caravan in. However what you can't see is if the camera guy knew the caravan was trying to change lane.
Excluding the camera evidence the caravan guy is 100% liable imo.
hi dusty.. i don't know if you know that section of the M6 ,but there is plenty of warning to tell you to exit for the M5 you should be in the right lane. indeed the right lane usually [when the roadworks was in full swing] ends up with a nice long mile plus tailback, where as the two outer lanes for carrying on on the M6 is free flowing at about 50mph . so that caravan must have passed by a very long queue getting on for a mile of very slow moving traffic ,queuing to leave the M6 and get on the M5 . before he thought it prudent to try to force another vehicle to almost stop so he could get off.. this happens all the time funnily for some reason hgv's seem to be targeted, i dont know if this is total stupidity on the part of the other party to try to squeeze in front of 15 or 20 tonnes of metal that could crush you, or a belief on the other party of the hgv driver being a supreme driver who;s only job is to keep a space open not for braking safely but for those Idiots to be able not to queue like everyone else... i drive an HGV occasionally, so yes of course that HGV driver knew the caravan was there you get used to it . but the question here is IF the video goes viral and IF morans see it then is there not a chance that some of them just might take note and god forbid move into the proper lane earlier rather than when the road runs out? lets be clear here that video was taken from the cab of an HGV so i will assume he/the company had no problem putting it on the net, so again i assume he was not found to be at fault by the police, one can assume that? surely they had to be called as the road was blocked. i'd go further side camera and rear camera evidence would only make it worse for the bloke towing the caravan ,it would show him taking over 100s of yards of queuing cars it could properly also show cars having to change lanes swiftly as the caravan slowed to almost a crawl... I had my lorry mirror hit by a van whilst i was queuing to cross over vauxhall bridge same sort of scenario car intentionally in wrong lane just to get past as much slow moving traffic as possible.. i had to get out and straighten mirror ,annoyed i phones the number on the back of the van and i got the normal nonsense response.. back at the depot reviewed all footage compared to the front camera footage the rear and especially the side view camera make for dramatic images that show the third party in an even worse light..makes insurance claims and non fault so much easier.. now all we need is for those idiots to realise this,then we will all be safer.. i have a front facing camera on my car ,but having seen side camera and rear camera footage wish i had that too it really does gives a far better all round picture of events .Dustydog said:
Fully agree with you Jonny.
I know the junction very well.SWMBO is a Brummie. We use this junction every month if not more returning home to Cirencester.
The video shows the junction was under repair or alteration ( again) hence only one lane was available on the M6 to join the M5 whereas before you could use the nearside and centre lane for departure onto the M5.
We are all tuggers on here and no way can I believe one of us would take such a stupid risks with our caravans. Maybe he was using Milencos
I know the junction very well.SWMBO is a Brummie. We use this junction every month if not more returning home to Cirencester.
The video shows the junction was under repair or alteration ( again) hence only one lane was available on the M6 to join the M5 whereas before you could use the nearside and centre lane for departure onto the M5.
We are all tuggers on here and no way can I believe one of us would take such a stupid risks with our caravans. Maybe he was using Milencos
Yes the caravan owner is at fault but the wagon driver has shown himself to be at fault also. At no time was he at a safe distance from the car in front, regardless of speed. Running through road works and on a junction you can assume that you will be cut up. The wagon also sped up when he could have held his speed and by covering the brake he could have avoided this incident.
I know that I could expect to be sacked for something like this, not just by the company that I drive for , but also the company that we haul for , as they monitor our behaviour on the road.
There are Drivers and Drovers out there !
I know that I could expect to be sacked for something like this, not just by the company that I drive for , but also the company that we haul for , as they monitor our behaviour on the road.
There are Drivers and Drovers out there !
absolutely agree, Turbo, from what some have written you would think the truck driver had no choice regardless of the circumstances, if anyone thinks the collision was unavoidable from the truck drivers point of view, go look in the mirror you are that driver.
in any set of circumstances there is a point where a collision COULD BE AVOIDED the truck driver did not take it, but blindly carried on knowing he was going to help close the junction for a couple of hours to all other traffic. that point was at 1.58 seconds when the caravan was half way passed and it was obvious he wasn't going back on to the M6. he could have should have lifted off and slowed down braked hard if required, and as a last resort gone over to the left hand lane over the cones[there only rubber and can be resited] pulled up and phoned the police for assistance, yes he may have lost 1/2 hour of journey time but not doing so ended up being off the road after the collision.in a major incident, can some of you not see that.
from the video clip which had decent sound on it did anyone else notice the absence of any horn being sounded at all at any time a good blast would probably have scared the old giffer into staying on the M6,
in any set of circumstances there is a point where a collision COULD BE AVOIDED the truck driver did not take it, but blindly carried on knowing he was going to help close the junction for a couple of hours to all other traffic. that point was at 1.58 seconds when the caravan was half way passed and it was obvious he wasn't going back on to the M6. he could have should have lifted off and slowed down braked hard if required, and as a last resort gone over to the left hand lane over the cones[there only rubber and can be resited] pulled up and phoned the police for assistance, yes he may have lost 1/2 hour of journey time but not doing so ended up being off the road after the collision.in a major incident, can some of you not see that.
from the video clip which had decent sound on it did anyone else notice the absence of any horn being sounded at all at any time a good blast would probably have scared the old giffer into staying on the M6,
Well done Colin. I am getting fed up with all the "but it is the caravaners fault".
Yes we know. That is not the point we are arguing. I stating the accident could have been avoided.
Only watched it on my phone and never noticed a horn being sounded.
Yes we know. That is not the point we are arguing. I stating the accident could have been avoided.
Only watched it on my phone and never noticed a horn being sounded.
Most haulage companies nowadays, due to insurance restrictions mainly, and in particular if the firm has a poor accident record, will send their drivers either on a safety course, such as the ROSPA one, or a defensive driving course. Anybody that had driven a truck, been an examiner on one of those courses, or any transport manager being totally honest, will tell you that although it wasnt the truck driver that caused the situation, he could have, and should have avoided that accident. Legally it wasnt his fault? Maybe. But he still has a moral duty to avoid the accident if possible.
One you take the HGV test, or LGV as it is now, the one thing you are taught, taught and taught again is mirrors. They will even tell you that FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE TEST, looking in your mirrors isnt enough, the examiner has to actually see you doing it, i.e. moving your head. That is drummed into every professional driver. If he didnt see the caravan, he should have. In truth he has more mirrors to look in than a supermodel. However, I firmly believe that not only did he see the caravan, but he deliberately speeded up and closed the gap. This from somebody that would usually support the professional driver. He is driving a vehicle that is potentially lethal and has amazing destructive power. He has a moral responsibility to drive it safely. His actions in not giving way directly put at risk everybody around him. Nobody likes to give way, but I bet he wouldnt have been so anti driving his own car!
The standard of driving across the caravan world is generally poor. Many caravanners have always driven a small to medium sized car, and often their real driving experience is the commute to work and the occasional holiday. Then retirement arrives, and with very little prior experience they shoot out, buy the biggest 4x4 they can find, sitck a caravan on the back and away they go, with the same mind set as when they were driving the family Ford Focus.
This brings me to licenses. We all know the situation, pass your test before a certain date, pass your test afterwards and you need a small test. I would be in complete favour of everybody having to take a test to tow a caravan. Its ludicrous to have double standards. Passing your test before a certain date does not make you more competant than anybody else.
Back to the accident, it was completely avoidable, it occured beacuse of nothing more than aggressive driving by both parties. At the very least, the caravanner should have been charged with "driving without due care". Possible even a "reckless drivng" though harder to prove. And had I been the truckers transport manager, he would have been on a "written warning".
One you take the HGV test, or LGV as it is now, the one thing you are taught, taught and taught again is mirrors. They will even tell you that FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE TEST, looking in your mirrors isnt enough, the examiner has to actually see you doing it, i.e. moving your head. That is drummed into every professional driver. If he didnt see the caravan, he should have. In truth he has more mirrors to look in than a supermodel. However, I firmly believe that not only did he see the caravan, but he deliberately speeded up and closed the gap. This from somebody that would usually support the professional driver. He is driving a vehicle that is potentially lethal and has amazing destructive power. He has a moral responsibility to drive it safely. His actions in not giving way directly put at risk everybody around him. Nobody likes to give way, but I bet he wouldnt have been so anti driving his own car!
The standard of driving across the caravan world is generally poor. Many caravanners have always driven a small to medium sized car, and often their real driving experience is the commute to work and the occasional holiday. Then retirement arrives, and with very little prior experience they shoot out, buy the biggest 4x4 they can find, sitck a caravan on the back and away they go, with the same mind set as when they were driving the family Ford Focus.
This brings me to licenses. We all know the situation, pass your test before a certain date, pass your test afterwards and you need a small test. I would be in complete favour of everybody having to take a test to tow a caravan. Its ludicrous to have double standards. Passing your test before a certain date does not make you more competant than anybody else.
Back to the accident, it was completely avoidable, it occured beacuse of nothing more than aggressive driving by both parties. At the very least, the caravanner should have been charged with "driving without due care". Possible even a "reckless drivng" though harder to prove. And had I been the truckers transport manager, he would have been on a "written warning".
I agree with every word that Thingy has written..... I speak as a retired owner driver /operator of a 38 ton artic.
I just think there is a huge difference between being given a written warning by your employer and being found guilty in a court of law.
On the evidence shown on the video the fault as applied by the law lies with the driver towing the caravan.
I think my own driving is improved by only expecting other drivers to drive lawfully.
I do not expect other drivers to be experts at defensive driving and allow for any mistakes I may make.
I hope that this attitude may make me a better driver.
I just think there is a huge difference between being given a written warning by your employer and being found guilty in a court of law.
On the evidence shown on the video the fault as applied by the law lies with the driver towing the caravan.
I think my own driving is improved by only expecting other drivers to drive lawfully.
I do not expect other drivers to be experts at defensive driving and allow for any mistakes I may make.
I hope that this attitude may make me a better driver.
Parksy
Moderator
When I was driving artics for a living the loads often consisted of bright steel bar which was coated in oil to prevent rust. A fully freighted trailer would have the bars on timber baulk all down the flatbed with layer on timbers bridging the two. The load would be dogged down tightly with chains and chain stretchers, all sheeted and roped.
Loads like that elevated defensive driving to another level! :dry:
The caravanner was and probably still is a dangerous numpty of worst type who was entirely at fault.
If I'd been driving the truck I'd probably have cursed the idiot loud and long but professional pride would never have allowed me to continue in such a bloody minded manner until there was a collision.
Ask yourselves, if you were going on holiday, driving lawfully in the correct lane at a low speed in heavy traffic and a similar situation arose, would you do the same thing as the lorry driver and speed up to close the gap with the risk of a collision and a ruined holiday? ..........Seriously?
Loads like that elevated defensive driving to another level! :dry:
The caravanner was and probably still is a dangerous numpty of worst type who was entirely at fault.
If I'd been driving the truck I'd probably have cursed the idiot loud and long but professional pride would never have allowed me to continue in such a bloody minded manner until there was a collision.
Ask yourselves, if you were going on holiday, driving lawfully in the correct lane at a low speed in heavy traffic and a similar situation arose, would you do the same thing as the lorry driver and speed up to close the gap with the risk of a collision and a ruined holiday? ..........Seriously?
Dont think he may have accelerated his learning curve then? :lol: If he hasnt learned from that, he probably never will.
Judging by his attitude after the accident he did not think he had done anything wrong. On that basis I do wonder if he learned anything although his future premiums might make him think again.
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