Overturned Caravan

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Mar 14, 2005
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Sheer weight could have been an issue if the caravan was well over the MTPLM limit. There are specific models of ATC in steps of 200kg to 300kg so if the model in question was already close to the MTPLM limit of MJT's caravan it could have been unable to cope with a really excessive load. However, I think that this is unlikely unless the load was exceeded significantly, say by well over 100kg as there should be a reasonable safety margin incorporated in the ATC design to cope with some overload.
Weight distribution could also have been a contributing cause (noseweight much too low or too many heavy items in overhead lockers or at the ends of the caravan, for example) although MJT claimed that care was always taken in this respect, or loose things shifting about inside.
The report talks about a deflated tyre, not one that was pulled off the rim. It is difficult to comment on this. There are a number of possible causes.
Yes, one should feel a tug at the back of the car as the ATC applies the caravan's brakes.
 
Jul 15, 2008
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MJT........I admire the fact that your accident has not put you off towing a caravan.

I have met several Motor caravaners who told me an accident such as yours put them off towing for good!
I spent nearly 30 years driving an articulated truck and witnessed 3 accidents such as yours over the years.
That is where a car towing a caravan becomes unstable due to wind turbulence, when overtaking a large truck at a small speed differential.
In the accidents I witnessed the caravan threw the back end of the towcar around which such severity nothing would have prevented the ensuing rollover and destruction.
The wind turbulence around a large truck or coach is enormous and overtaking when there is also a crosswind is fraught with danger.
I would not have carried out the manoeuvre you describe in those conditions with a caravan I had not towed before.
I suspect the speed differential between your outfit and the truck was not that great.

When driving my truck I used to drop 5mph when being overtaken by a car/caravan outfit simply to avoid being caught up in an accident!
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Hi,

Interesting reading MJT's post. Is it coincidental that we were both towing with a Kia Sorento ?. I still am not sure what the cause was of my mishap. NW was a bit light I know but just wondering if there is something inherently unstable with the Kia rear suspension. Being a novice tower I have nothing to compare it against. I know the reviews for the Kia have been good thats why I bought one, just asking the question. Any one else tow with a Kia Sorento ?

I had booked to have ATC fitted on my replacement caravan but the fitter came with the wrong wiring loom so its been put back. I will not take the van out till its been fitted. It was hoped it would be a confidence booster as well as a safety device but MJT's post makes me wonder.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Brian_374582181 said:
Hi,

Interesting reading MJT's post. Is it coincidental that we were both towing with a Kia Sorento ?. I still am not sure what the cause was of my mishap. NW was a bit light I know but just wondering if there is something inherently unstable with the Kia rear suspension. Being a novice tower I have nothing to compare it against. I know the reviews for the Kia have been good thats why I bought one, just asking the question. Any one else tow with a Kia Sorento ?

I had booked to have ATC fitted on my replacement caravan but the fitter came with the wrong wiring loom so its been put back. I will not take the van out till its been fitted. It was hoped it would be a confidence booster as well as a safety device but MJT's post makes me wonder.
Hi Brian
I've towed with a Sorento for the last 5 1/2 years with no issues. The Sorie has self levelling rear suspension and in all respects is a solid beast. However all things mechanical can wear.Was your suspension ok?
There's loads more info on "uksorento.com".
It may be worth you telling your story there as there are some real boffins who know every nut and bolt of the Sorie.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Thanks Dusty dog, for the reply. I did get my suspension checked out afterwards at a local garage who found no faults at the time. As you say probably be worth looking on the Sorento forum when I get chance. Lifes a bit busy at the moment
 

mjt

Feb 21, 2009
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Thank you folks for taking the trouble to read my saga and for the comments raised by Lutz, Prof John L, Dustydog and Gafferbill.
I did originally say I was trying to keep a long story short and I am not expecting anyone to come up with a conclusive judgement on what went wrong. This is the first time I have related this story in ‘public’ and it is interesting to hear your views. Bearing in mind it all happened 2 yrs ago and is now just a nasty memory, I will respond as best I can – most of it is covered in the Alko report anyway.
First, thank you for your concern, I am glad to say we escaped physical injury although pride was a little hurt. I am in agreement with Brian, you do feel a bit of a prat at the time!
We now have a smaller 2 berth van which is the only way I could persuade my wife to continue. I think she was influenced by my concerns about the 19’ body length of the Lunar (compared with our previous 4 berth Swift at 17’) and that a decade or so ago that would most certainly be a twin axle and, since the introduction of rear fixed beds, I have been of the opinion that it would be too easy to overload the rear.
Brakes.
Alko examined, but found no fault with the caravan braking system or the ATC pushrod adjustment. They did find that the overrun damper was not working – no force in or out. They reckon this was due to the accident otherwise I would have been aware beforehand of the caravan banging into the rear of the car under braking.
Awareness of ATC operation.
I was questioned about what was happening at the time by Alko MD. I described there being three separate events in quick succession “The first time the caravan went in to a violent snake which appeared to damp down. It then happened again, and then the third time we hit the central barrier”. Alko interpret that as being evidence that the ATC was working.
MTPLM & Payload
All bulk items were removed on the day including gas, battery, fridge contents, bedding, pots & pans, clothes, awning, water & waste carriers.
The items left for removal later where appropriate included:- box of Solar lights(1kg); Fan heater(1kg); Drinking glasses in plastic box(0.9kg); TV hook-up lead & standby ali aerial(2.2kg); Food stock (8.2kg); Steps (4.9kg); Caravan mover (30kgs – included in payload calcs); 2ltrs of flushing water in loo (the wife insists)(+some fluid added on the M11!);Awning hanging LED lamp; 2 x rush beach mats; Teapot; Tupperware boxes; tea & coffee containers; a few bits of plastic crocs; condiments; Bathroom toiletries; maybe a few other odds & sods. (These latter items were initially weighed within various bulk lots). Say the total left and included in the Alko weighing to be 50kgs.

I did not question the methodology or accuracy of the measured weights at the time. They did note the plated MTPLM of 1413kgs so I imagine that would have triggered some doubt on their own measurements if there were any – they were pretty thorough on everything else.
Assuming them to be correct and, adding the remaining payload that was removed, gives a travelling ALW of 1572kgs. – 159kgs, 11.25% above the plated MTPLM!!
The ATC fitted (by Lunar) was suitable for a weight range 1301- 1500kgs (Alko figures).

You can see why I raised this with Lunar and probably why they choose to remain silent.

Tyre Deflation
The n/s rear tyre was indeed off the rim at the bottom (and that’s not intended to be a joke as per “it’s only flat at the bottom”!) There was absolutely no indication of running flat or a blow-out ie damaged tyre walls etc. This was no ordinary sideways skid; the car turned to the offside, nose into the barrier, and was pushed sideways with some considerable downward force by the van. The angle between car and van ended up less than 90degrees and the ‘A’ frame ended up under the o/s rear corner of the car. The swan neck tow ball was seriously bent to the o/s. I remain convinced this is what took the tyre off the rim.
Wind & overtaking
I had been trailing the HGV’s for 15miles up the M11 from the M25, it was only when I had to change lanes to go straight ahead at J8 that I began to overtake the HGV’s that were branching left, it was not a specific overtaking manoeuvre. The crosswind was only moderate and I didn’t really notice it until I was standing inside the central reservation. In any case, isn’t this situation one of those that the ATC is supposed to guard against? See their Web site.
 

mjt

Feb 21, 2009
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Hello Brian.
Despite the accident I remain fully confident of the Sorento otherwise I would not have replaced it with an identical model. Take heart with the fact that vehicles such as the Range Rover and Discovery have had similar mishaps and I don’t think anybody would doubt their towing ability.
Also, I did specify an ATC on my new van – it seems tempting providence not to! Perhaps that’s a good Alko marketing ploy, or perhaps I am getting a bit cynical in my old age!
Regards.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Hi MJT,
Thanks for your last reply. My wife is extremely nervous of going out again hence the requirement for the ATC. I dare not show her the first post you made on this thread as I think that would finish it for her. Personally I am a little apprehensive but feel a need to prove something to myself. Tell me after 2 years does it still affect your confidence ?
 

mjt

Feb 21, 2009
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Hello Brian, I confess I initially had a lot of trepidation and do still have a little anxiety which I am sure is to be expected. I am less keen to overtake HGV’s than before and rarely reach the 60mph speed limit. I think Gafferbill’s caution about overtaking HGV’s is sound advice. I have not been on any trips longer than 60miles since but this is due mainly to circumstances unconnected with the accident, we are in our early and late seventies and unable to do the hill walking we used to so now we are happy to visit “local” CL’s although we do hope to get further afield this year. We were booked in at Malvern last Sept but had to cancel, so we may try again.
Please don’t be put off by anything I have said – caravanning is a wonderful past time and you should get back into it ASAP. Good luck.
Regards.
 
Jul 15, 2008
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Collyn Rivers has written what is for me is the best article I have seen explaining caravan instability.

Working on the principle that knowledge is a good thing and may help I post a link below........
It is written with an Australian influence (eg: reference to a 10% noseweight) and is necessarily technical but spells out exactly what happens and why.

I acknowledge his copyright and here is a link.......

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/pdf/vehicle_dynamics_complete.pdf
 
Mar 14, 2005
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lutzschelisch.wix.com
Interesting article, Gafferbill. I would concur with most of what it says. I do have reservations, however, about the Weight Distributing Hitch that is referred to. The loads that such a hitch impart on the towbar are uncontrollable and probably exceed the design capability of the average underbody structure, at least that of a typical European towcar. I would imagine that most car manufacturers here would not accept warranty liability if such a feature were fitted.
The article also suggests that AlKo invented Automatic Stability Control and that it applies the brakes differentially left and right. That is not the case. Firstly, such a system was on the market already in 1994, well before ATC appeared. In fact, AlKo were involved in a patent rights issue until this was resolved. Secondly, as can be seen from the photograph in the article, the actuator beam is balanced between the two brake cables, so that the brakes on both sides are applied simulatneously (unlike ABS or ESP on a car)
 
Jul 15, 2008
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.
Lutz........ all your points are accepted by me and agreed with.

The writer of the article (who as I pointed out lives in Australia) can be forgiven for getting facts about Alko and their ATC system wrong.
Likewise the Weight Distributing Hitch is another Australian feature designed for the much stronger chassis that they have on their caravans and towing vehicles.
 

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