Yes come on Sarah let us all know, as Parksy says the forum is intended to share information for the good of all, and in this case could be a life or death situation and I am not making light of the situation when I say that.
If you have the definitive answer as to what went wrong it could be just that.
If you have the definitive answer as to what went wrong it could be just that.
sarah here, no expert and i did not say i was but i learnt towing and matches from father who was a top traffic cop,and has seen many accidents first hand also had to determine cause.any how it could of been caused by a hgv overtaking,and the van being pulled out of line,wind could of been a cause if side on, road surface could be a factor,lack of noseweight as not checked when hitched,75kg could be a bit light,was the van slighty nose down when hitched,sorrento has a fairly high nose weight limit,what is it for that car.was the layout a fixed bed with awning chairs under the bed,rear of axle,how was it loaded, as a new person would you know how to load seasonably,heavy items over axle,check nose weight and why,what is a stable tow,how to tell,how to spot a snake starting,
one has to start somewhere,we all make mistakes and learn from it.
i did suggest a towing course go through a club.
one has to start somewhere,we all make mistakes and learn from it.
i did suggest a towing course go through a club.
Parksy
Moderator
Most of the information mentioned by Sarah can be found in the Beginners link from the website Home Page which can be accessed by clicking on the home page tab on this forum page.
Advice about towing weights and can be found by clicking Towing Law also from the home page.
There is no requirement for the caravan to be 'nose down' when it is hitched. As long as the centre of the towball is between 350mm and 420mm on a fully laden vehicle but with the caravan unhitched the noseweight is correct and the vehicle is capable of towing the caravan legally and safely the nose up/ down attitude of the caravan has no bearing on the towing characteristics of a s/a caravan.
Sarah is correct when she suggests a towing course, both clubs run courses which would be of great benefit to new caravanners who are unused to towing.
Advice about towing weights and can be found by clicking Towing Law also from the home page.
There is no requirement for the caravan to be 'nose down' when it is hitched. As long as the centre of the towball is between 350mm and 420mm on a fully laden vehicle but with the caravan unhitched the noseweight is correct and the vehicle is capable of towing the caravan legally and safely the nose up/ down attitude of the caravan has no bearing on the towing characteristics of a s/a caravan.
Sarah is correct when she suggests a towing course, both clubs run courses which would be of great benefit to new caravanners who are unused to towing.
I have found that my caravan is less stable when towed slightly nose down, i have increased the nose weight from 80/85 to 90/95 to achieve the stability i had previously.
When the caravan was towed level i had no problems with passing vehicles.
When the caravan was towed level i had no problems with passing vehicles.
sarah and her 6dachshunds,
"ideally try to get a noseweight of 7% of the vans loaded weight, or you may need higher with a Sorento".
This is very bad advice, without taking account of the caravan chassis manufacturers noseweight limit.
I think Elddis use BPW chassis but I am not sure of the BPW noseweight limit, however most British caravans are built on Alko chassis which have a noseweght limit of 100kgs.Therefore advising caravanners to use 7% of the caravans maximum laden weight would mean that any caravan, of which there are many, with a maximum weight of over 1430kgs would be breaking the law.
The caravan noseweight limit overides the car towball limit,if the car noseweight limit is higher.
Parksys advice re the towing courses is good advice.
Hamer
"ideally try to get a noseweight of 7% of the vans loaded weight, or you may need higher with a Sorento".
This is very bad advice, without taking account of the caravan chassis manufacturers noseweight limit.
I think Elddis use BPW chassis but I am not sure of the BPW noseweight limit, however most British caravans are built on Alko chassis which have a noseweght limit of 100kgs.Therefore advising caravanners to use 7% of the caravans maximum laden weight would mean that any caravan, of which there are many, with a maximum weight of over 1430kgs would be breaking the law.
The caravan noseweight limit overides the car towball limit,if the car noseweight limit is higher.
Parksys advice re the towing courses is good advice.
Hamer
Sarah and her 6 dachshunds
"75kg could be a bit light,was the van slighty nose down when hitched,sorrento has a fairly high nose weight limit,what is it for that car.was the layout a fixed bed "
See all the earlier posts.
Sorento max noseweight is 112kgs for the model concerned.
Brian's caravan is an Elldis Avante 540. This is on a BPW chassis and has a rear end washroom and fixed double bed. He was running virtually empty apart from an awning and two chairs.
Cheers
Dustydog
"75kg could be a bit light,was the van slighty nose down when hitched,sorrento has a fairly high nose weight limit,what is it for that car.was the layout a fixed bed "
See all the earlier posts.
Sorento max noseweight is 112kgs for the model concerned.
Brian's caravan is an Elldis Avante 540. This is on a BPW chassis and has a rear end washroom and fixed double bed. He was running virtually empty apart from an awning and two chairs.
Cheers
Dustydog
sarah, my sorento has self leveling suspension so attitude of the van would have appeared to be level, reguardless of the nose weight,if Brians is the same, this should never be taken as an indication of stability in the case of any towcars with self leveling suspension.
Advice is all well and good ,but if it happens to you the most natural thing to do is ..... freeze.
Most people ,without a lot of training are simply unable to react in the correct way.
Remember the ads of cars in the early days of ABS.... yes ,you can steer around the problem....
Have you ever had to stamp on the brakes and managed to steer around the danger ?
Its the same with snaking,if it happens and its bad and you dont have the correct training and practice.....
Most people ,without a lot of training are simply unable to react in the correct way.
Remember the ads of cars in the early days of ABS.... yes ,you can steer around the problem....
Have you ever had to stamp on the brakes and managed to steer around the danger ?
Its the same with snaking,if it happens and its bad and you dont have the correct training and practice.....
Sarah 6 daschunds posts about keeping the steering wheel straight.... ive got news for you... the car is getting thrown all over the road, what you end up doing is steering in the opposite direction ( because thats what we as humans are pre programmed to do),but your often to late to react,so what actually occurs is that you exacerbate the snake by inadvertantly steering into it .
I have not been in a major snake ,i have had a low energy ,long frequency snake and that was bad enough.
I have not been in a major snake ,i have had a low energy ,long frequency snake and that was bad enough.
Seems to me our Editor Nigel in conjunction with the experts should do a detailed article on the snaking issue. There are a lot of newbies who can benefit from correct advice and of course all the experiences on here.
Cheers
Dustydog
Cheers
Dustydog
There have been a lot of great replies on this thread, unfortunately I have been so busy this evening, lots of phone calls that Ive not been able to reply sooner.
To the poster who mentioned about not trying to steer he hit the nail on the head, When you feel the car being steered by the caravan towards the crash barrier you do try to correct it.
I didn't want to go Car first into the barrier wrecking both.
To Sarah who advised checking your mirrors to watch for a snake starting, I always check frequently to make sure the van wheels are central in the lane. When this snake started it started very quickly and it wasn't gradual. I can't stress this enough.
I took my feet off the pedals to slow down and fortunately I managed to hold off the inevitable for a distance which gave motorists behind a chance to slow down otherwise it could have beeen a lot worse. Eventually I had to break gently as I had lost control. I don't recall being overtaken by a HGV prior to the snake.
The awning poles were over the axle, two chairs in front stowage under seat and two gas bottles in boot.
The Van has a fixed bed at rear, bathroom is in front of bed.
Aqua roll & waste water was in car. I had not emptied the water from the heater but that is at front opposite side to battery.
Toilet had not been emptied ,but not had much use as we use site facilities and it was a one night stay
Brian
To the poster who mentioned about not trying to steer he hit the nail on the head, When you feel the car being steered by the caravan towards the crash barrier you do try to correct it.
I didn't want to go Car first into the barrier wrecking both.
To Sarah who advised checking your mirrors to watch for a snake starting, I always check frequently to make sure the van wheels are central in the lane. When this snake started it started very quickly and it wasn't gradual. I can't stress this enough.
I took my feet off the pedals to slow down and fortunately I managed to hold off the inevitable for a distance which gave motorists behind a chance to slow down otherwise it could have beeen a lot worse. Eventually I had to break gently as I had lost control. I don't recall being overtaken by a HGV prior to the snake.
The awning poles were over the axle, two chairs in front stowage under seat and two gas bottles in boot.
The Van has a fixed bed at rear, bathroom is in front of bed.
Aqua roll & waste water was in car. I had not emptied the water from the heater but that is at front opposite side to battery.
Toilet had not been emptied ,but not had much use as we use site facilities and it was a one night stay
Brian
may be noseweights could be re worked to run more heavy in no this is not pc but a lot of people run heavy and say it tows better.
Hello Brian,
I am sorry to read about your experience, I am very grateful to see that no one was hurt. I sincerely hope that you can all get over the incident and feel able to return to caravanning.
It may seem a little churlish to bring this up, but you state that the "gas bottles were in the boot", and by this I assume you mean they were not secured in the spaces provided in the caravan front locker.
For reasons that have been describe several time on this forum, it is unsafe to carry gas bottles in a car simply because of the potential for gas leakages.
But just consider the possibility that the caravan had not separated from the car, and not only the caravan overturned but the car also. Loose gas bottles are formidable projectile flying around the inside of a car, with the potential for them to do serious injury and valves being damaged and starting to leak gas or liquefied gas - inside the car!
One of the major concerns of the emergency services is the preservation of life, and to avoid fire. If the gas bottles are not where they should be, it endangers you and the fire fighters, as how do they know what they are dealing with?
Never carry gas bottles in the car.
I am sorry to read about your experience, I am very grateful to see that no one was hurt. I sincerely hope that you can all get over the incident and feel able to return to caravanning.
It may seem a little churlish to bring this up, but you state that the "gas bottles were in the boot", and by this I assume you mean they were not secured in the spaces provided in the caravan front locker.
For reasons that have been describe several time on this forum, it is unsafe to carry gas bottles in a car simply because of the potential for gas leakages.
But just consider the possibility that the caravan had not separated from the car, and not only the caravan overturned but the car also. Loose gas bottles are formidable projectile flying around the inside of a car, with the potential for them to do serious injury and valves being damaged and starting to leak gas or liquefied gas - inside the car!
One of the major concerns of the emergency services is the preservation of life, and to avoid fire. If the gas bottles are not where they should be, it endangers you and the fire fighters, as how do they know what they are dealing with?
Never carry gas bottles in the car.
Hi Brian,firstly I hope everything is soon sorted out for you,& I'm pleased no one was hurt.
I also say thanks for the first hand report you have supplied
I have been towing for many years & I am a stickler for making sure that load,tyres,noseweight ect are all correct.
I have no comment's to make, as subject to your description of the circumstances I can think of no plausable explanation that might help. But thanks to your post i will also be keeping a dam good eye on the road surface as well
TD 42
I also say thanks for the first hand report you have supplied
I have been towing for many years & I am a stickler for making sure that load,tyres,noseweight ect are all correct.
I have no comment's to make, as subject to your description of the circumstances I can think of no plausable explanation that might help. But thanks to your post i will also be keeping a dam good eye on the road surface as well
TD 42
Hi Prof,
Sorry, the gas bottles were both in front locker and secured with straps. I was just making the point they were adding to the nose weight
Sorry, the gas bottles were both in front locker and secured with straps. I was just making the point they were adding to the nose weight
Damian
Moderator
I have been following this topic with a great deal of interest and it is a very sobering thought that despite seemingly taking every sensible step to load a van correctly, and driving at sensible speed, a situation such as Brians can overtake us in the briefest passage of time, and totally change our lives for ever.
Thankfully no one was hurt, and thankfully following drivers had the sense to stay back and save a much worse situation.
It makes me wonder that those who take no interest in loading, weight distribution, car/van ratio, speed etc get away with it?
But we see it every day, badly matched outfits travelling at speed, and on arrival at site, the amount of "goods" crammed into every space available.
I would like to thank Brian for sharing his experience and taking the time and effort to explain everything in the amount of detail he has.
I also wish him and his family well in the future and hope that they wil soon be back on the road with a nice new caravan, and no more nasty surprises.
Thankfully no one was hurt, and thankfully following drivers had the sense to stay back and save a much worse situation.
It makes me wonder that those who take no interest in loading, weight distribution, car/van ratio, speed etc get away with it?
But we see it every day, badly matched outfits travelling at speed, and on arrival at site, the amount of "goods" crammed into every space available.
I would like to thank Brian for sharing his experience and taking the time and effort to explain everything in the amount of detail he has.
I also wish him and his family well in the future and hope that they wil soon be back on the road with a nice new caravan, and no more nasty surprises.
Damian
Do you think having the caravan tyres balanced makes any difference to the handling?
Cheers
Dustydog
Do you think having the caravan tyres balanced makes any difference to the handling?
Cheers
Dustydog
Damian
Moderator
I know that balanced wheels save a lot of other damage to internal appliances and fittings, and must have a beneficial effect on handling as you have removed the bounce from a wheel which is inherently unbalanced.
To equate the massive difference between balance and no balance, try driving a car with unbalanced wheels and see how violently the wheels bounce.
Shock absorbers also make a huge difference to the handling o the van
To equate the massive difference between balance and no balance, try driving a car with unbalanced wheels and see how violently the wheels bounce.
Shock absorbers also make a huge difference to the handling o the van
...my approach to caravan towing safety is one of accepting that a caravan is an inherently unstable vehicle.
Only motorbikes and bicycles are more unstable for obvious reasons.
Any stability a caravan has at speed is imposed on it by the tow car and ultimately by the actions of the driver. The greater the speed the greater the instability despite any precautions, such as loading correctly, that we may take.
These facts are not new.
They have long been recognised in the following advice.
Tow a caravan that is the lightest and smallest for your needs. (Fixed beds?)
Look upon the 85% towing ratio as the minimum. (Often derided as outdated?)
Look after your caravan tyres as if your life depended on it because it does.
Keep your speed down. (Often quoted "my car does not know it has a caravan in tow")
Assuming Brian did everything correctly and I am sure he did, it seems likely that a gust of wind was enough to wrench the caravan from his cars control.
Caravans (balanced trailers) ARE unstable!
Glad you are OK Brian.
Only motorbikes and bicycles are more unstable for obvious reasons.
Any stability a caravan has at speed is imposed on it by the tow car and ultimately by the actions of the driver. The greater the speed the greater the instability despite any precautions, such as loading correctly, that we may take.
These facts are not new.
They have long been recognised in the following advice.
Tow a caravan that is the lightest and smallest for your needs. (Fixed beds?)
Look upon the 85% towing ratio as the minimum. (Often derided as outdated?)
Look after your caravan tyres as if your life depended on it because it does.
Keep your speed down. (Often quoted "my car does not know it has a caravan in tow")
Assuming Brian did everything correctly and I am sure he did, it seems likely that a gust of wind was enough to wrench the caravan from his cars control.
Caravans (balanced trailers) ARE unstable!
Glad you are OK Brian.
I wondered what the 'leeway was' with such rules for safe towing. I know in future for, me I will adhere rigidly to them.
I'm sure some people will not take them as seriously as they should. I just hope they read this thread. I admit I had not heard of the 7% guidline.
Just like to mention a couple of motorist jeered as they went past. This was most upsetting, and just shows their ignorance. They probably thought I was speeding with my fancy 4x4. I actually bought the Kia because it is a good stable tow car and I wanted the protection they afford in case of an accident
I'm sure some people will not take them as seriously as they should. I just hope they read this thread. I admit I had not heard of the 7% guidline.
Just like to mention a couple of motorist jeered as they went past. This was most upsetting, and just shows their ignorance. They probably thought I was speeding with my fancy 4x4. I actually bought the Kia because it is a good stable tow car and I wanted the protection they afford in case of an accident
That's terrible, Brian - ignorant bu**ers. Must have added to your distress. Let's hope it never happens to them! (We wouldn't be so wicked as to hope it does, would we?).
As others have said, thank goodness you're ok and I hope it's not put you off of having another caravan.
As others have said, thank goodness you're ok and I hope it's not put you off of having another caravan.
I've been towing a very long time, but would still not call myself an expert, I'm fortunate enough not to have had a snake, I'm sure by luck rather than expertise.
No one above I don't think has mentioned the dumbell effect. You may have the correct nose weight and overall weight but this could be distributed at the front and rear giving a dumbell effect which is more difficult to stabilise.
No one above I don't think has mentioned the dumbell effect. You may have the correct nose weight and overall weight but this could be distributed at the front and rear giving a dumbell effect which is more difficult to stabilise.
hi all.
I too have been following this thread with great interest and congratulate Brian on his detailed description of events surely a lesson to us all I am very glad no-one was hurt and wish him a speedy resolution to his problems so he can be back on the road with his van enjoying a hobby that is worth all the problems that may be associated with it.
as a caravanner with what must be nearly 40years worth experience of towing all sorts of trailers for hundreds of thousands of miles without ever experiencing a snake still accept that despite every precaution possible these things do happen when and if a combination of events and circumstances come together to produce a snake of the variety Brian reported.
despite all the efforts made to minimise instability with "varying degrees of success" it must allways be remembered that trailers and in particular caravans are inheritly unstable to begin with so no formula will be 100% effective, having said that experience does give one a insight as to where things are not quite right and steps taken "sometimes unconventionally" do make a difference to the annoyance of some purists might I add but each to their own I suppose.
colin
I too have been following this thread with great interest and congratulate Brian on his detailed description of events surely a lesson to us all I am very glad no-one was hurt and wish him a speedy resolution to his problems so he can be back on the road with his van enjoying a hobby that is worth all the problems that may be associated with it.
as a caravanner with what must be nearly 40years worth experience of towing all sorts of trailers for hundreds of thousands of miles without ever experiencing a snake still accept that despite every precaution possible these things do happen when and if a combination of events and circumstances come together to produce a snake of the variety Brian reported.
despite all the efforts made to minimise instability with "varying degrees of success" it must allways be remembered that trailers and in particular caravans are inheritly unstable to begin with so no formula will be 100% effective, having said that experience does give one a insight as to where things are not quite right and steps taken "sometimes unconventionally" do make a difference to the annoyance of some purists might I add but each to their own I suppose.
colin
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