Penalty Points

[Mike_5041089]

There have been many postings about the pro's & cons of Speed Cameras, and some pretty sanctimonious responses from some too.

I'm sure there is a direct correlation between the number of miles anually covered and the points people have got on their licenses.

I'm ashamed to admit that I have 9 points - all of them for exceeding the 60 or 70 mph limit by 10-12 mph by mobile speed cameras whilst travelling my 45000 miles pa trying to earn a crust.

I NEVER speed in towns and villages and strictly obey the 20,30 or 40 mph limits as children and animals could suddenly run out and I believe that Speed Cameras in towns/villages are very worthwhile deterrants.

Yes I have slowed down, so apologies to all other drivers who regularly break the limit on wide open A roads and M/ways as I must be holding them up on occasion.

So, go on admit it all of you, how many miles pa do you cover, and how many points do you have for speeding, and what speeds were you doing?

Anybody doing 40 in a 30 limit deserves to be caught as this is a killing speed to a pedestrian and is 33% over the limit, as for exceeding the higher limits by 10-12mph, just 8-9% above the limits seems really harsh to be awarded the same fine and points.

Yes, I've heard the arguement numerous times that if you don't speed you won't be caught, but can any of you honestly say that you have never ever broken a speed limit?

I await the brickbats!!

 

[354]

Why exceed the law to save a few minutes?

 

[GrahamW]

Mike

I have no problem in admitting my indiscretions, I got my first speeding points three days after my 16th Birthday, and have never had a clean licence since. I travel a similar milage to you annually (though it used to be twice what you travel) so its no wonder. Yes the points you gather are directly proportional to the mileage you do IMHO, so with about 1.5 million miles travelled so far in my driving life I really don't care about the points, its an occupational habit. What I am quite proud of however is that I have never had an accident or collission with anyone and most certainly never hurt anyone (including myself).

It is quite ironic I think that the only time I have ever been let off a speeding ticket was shamefully when I passed a Jam Butty car on the M6 at about 160mph. I think what saved me was the answer to his question " did you not see us" I replied " at that speed the only thing I am consentrating on is the road ahead". Much later in life I once got a camera ticket for 32mph so I guess we are even.

 

[GrahamW]

Mike

I have no problem in admitting my indiscretions, I got my first speeding points three days after my 16th Birthday, and have never had a clean licence since. I travel a similar milage to you annually (though it used to be twice what you travel) so its no wonder. Yes the points you gather are directly proportional to the mileage you do IMHO, so with about 1.5 million miles travelled so far in my driving life I really don't care about the points, its an occupational habit. What I am quite proud of however is that I have never had an accident or collission with anyone and most certainly never hurt anyone (including myself).

It is quite ironic I think that the only time I have ever been let off a speeding ticket was shamefully when I passed a Jam Butty car on the M6 at about 160mph. I think what saved me was the answer to his question " did you not see us" I replied " at that speed the only thing I am consentrating on is the road ahead". Much later in life I once got a camera ticket for 32mph so I guess we are even.

Sorry Lord B spelt concentrating wrong

 

[Stephen_5077753]

I do about 40k per annum too, quite a lot of this is personal mileage (visiting family) as well as business mileage. I always seem to have 3 points on my licence, as soon as one lot are clear I go and get another 3!! Been clean for a year now though, hope to keep it that way too!!

If you were doing 10-12 mph over 60/70 limits and been prosecuted you have either been driving a lot in South Wales or been extremly unlucky.

I have driven toward these mobile vans many times but have seen them far enough away to adjust my speed before its too late. I am to the opinion that although they are technically capable of getting you from a mile or more away (you cant see them at that distance) they generally only get those that are a few hundred yards away. The laser gun in them is only supposed to be used to confirm the operators prior opinion of your excess speed. Cant see in a million years how an operator could say you are doing more than X speed while been a mile away.

While I am driving along a motorway for example, I am always looking ahead for cars braking for no reason, oncoming traffic flashing (particularily HGV's flashing each other) and looking at the bridges for parked traffic. This, so far has stood me well.

I am also to the opinion that any of these operators with any sense would see that someone doing 85 mph initially but seeing the speed trap from a good distance away is driving more safely (as they are showing good advance observation of the conditions ahead, ie other cars braking for no reason etc) than a motorist driving at 70 mph, seeing the van from 50yards away and braking for absolutly no reason at all. How many times do you see the Gatso white lines on the road with no Gatso, yet people still brake on them?? Which would you describe yourself as? One that sees the trap from miles away or only sees it when its too late?

I do also use a Snooper S4. This gives me 1000m advance warning of GATSO's etc, as well as some of the likley mobile trap locations/black spots. Also detects laser, but if it detects laser then there is a good chance its too late, although a few weeks back on the A92 in Fife it went balistic cos I didnt see the Mobile trap (obscured on approach by a HGV, and wasnt concentrating on the road enough) until too late. I braked to 70ish as quick as I could. Never got the ***. Dont know if he couldnt get a clear view of the car, or if I had slowed down enough, quickly enough. Will never know.

That incident just shows we all have to pay attention to the road for all hazards.

Its also handy knowing the law/regulations on the speed traps. For instance, ACPO guidlines state that they cant be located within 50m of a RF hazard (mobile phone mast etc), the operator cannot use/have switched on his mobile phone, police radio while speed checking. Also, if they are on a motorway bridge they can only look for motorists in the lane they are parked above. If parked above L2 they cant do L1 or L3. So if your in L2, then move to L1 or L3 and slow down. Make a note of your lane position and there lane position, If you get done then ask for a piccy to show they shouldnt of got you.

Steve

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Sorry Lord B spelt concentrating wrong

Tut! Tut!

 

[colin(bridgend)]

I must agree with Del -why speed? Whether you agree with the law is another matter - the law is there and if you break it you deserve to get caught. There will be no sympathy from me. Incicently I now only do about 10k per annum having retired but prior to retirement I would average about 20k per annum. Never had any points on my licence - the last misdemenar was an endorsement in 1974. Lord B as a human dictionary I apologise for typographical error before you have the chance of pulling me up.

 

[jon_5062082]

i probably only do 10-12k a year and have done for the last 20 years and have never had any points on my license.

Im not saying i never speed but it is very rare nowadays , its too easy to get caught out and certainly NEVER speed in a built up area.sod all the heroes that sit cursing on my boot lid as i do bank on the limit in a 20,30 or 40 zone.

you speed you expect to get caught sooner or later.

now when i was a boy racer in the 80s in my souped up mk2 escort i got a couple of producers for driving like a tit but never got cautioned.

 

[CliveV]

Our local paper (Salisbury Journal) broke the news that minutes of a meeting that were leaked confirmed that camera activity was to be increased due to a brave ladies successful campaign against illegally sited cameras on the A303.

This has resulted in thousands of prosecutions being rescinded and rebates issued.

The cost is high. Now the law states that these cameras are NOT to be used to raise revenue. But this leaked memo confirms absolutely that revenue increase by increasing speed camera activity is the reality of which we should be aware.

 

[rayc]

The claim that speed cameras and the activities of the camera partnerships saves lives is completely hollow.

The Chief Constable of Durham claims that in his county that less than 3% of accidents involve vehicles exceeding the speed limit. Nobody has disputed his figures and they are considered to be typibcal of the remainder of the UK.

Nobody should be surprised that the number deaths are relatively constant despite the partnership activities, they are targetting less than 5% of the causes of accidents.

 

[Stephen_5077753]

In response to Jon who says he sits at 20,30 or 40 while in that zone, that does not say you are driving safely. Anyone can drive at those speeds and think that they are "safe" as they are within the law. There is that much emphasis on not speeding these days, other mtoring skills seem to be forgoten. Im sure though, Jon you are observant,considerate, etc too.

I will also slow down while in town or where I feel the need to do so in other areas (even if the limit is higher). Most of my speeding is done on motorways and other NSL roads when and only when the conditions are good.

The amount of people I will follow through a NSL (60) stretch of road doing 40 to 45 for miles on end. They think they are deiving safe cos the are 20 mph below the limit. Problem is many of them carry on driving at that speed through the towns/villages that the road will pass through (A77 for example).

In Fife where I stay, they dont use GATSO's, they have a few mobile vans (not sure how many) and these are parked up on the areas that they see as been the blackspots. They do advertise there general location in the local rags. This system seems to work, better than having fixed GATSO's that people know where they are located.

Steve

 

[rayc]

I do not want to turn a caravan forum into a speed camera forum as there are plenty of those, but I would like to comment on Stephen's reference to ACPO Guidlines. These are actually an ACPO Code of Practice which lays down strict rules for the operation of speed detection equipment, especially laser and radar hand held equipment which are known to produce errors if not used as per the Code. In practice when a case goes to court and the defendant argues that the equipment was not used in accordance with the Code of Practice the prosecution argues that they are only guidlines. To save opening a can of worms the court accepts that if the equipment has home office approval and the operator is trained in its operation that the case has been proved.

Make no mistake it is about money and the system is quite happy to see innocent people prosecuted.

I am not against speed enforcement by trained Police Officers, who can use discretion and are answereable for their actions, but completely against the Camera Partnerships and hypothecation ( paying for themselves out of the fines generated). Justice cannot be impartial when all enforcement agencies: the Police, prosecutors and magistrates are all part of the same partnership.

 

[Viking1]

I have no point on my yet I used to have 3 but that was for going frown a red light.

One that get me is on last week Top Gear the person who drives there mid rang car was so think to do with speeding cams. Yet he had 9 Points on is. I think he should not have the job.

Mark

 

[Lol1]

I'm not going to tell anyone that I have never had any points on my licence, because sure as eggs are eggs if I do, tomorrow I will take the car out and get hit several times with a camera. Admittedly, I have been lucky; I do exceed speed limits when not towing, and if I'm confident with the road conditions. Sometimes I drive slower than the speed limit, due to it being a populated /built-up area. I believe that if your having to concentrate hard on your driving, you're going too fast. I have the speed camera database on my satnav so I know when one is coming up, however I still manage to miss the warnings and then have to brake at the camera. I'm not the only one, and this act of braking late causes more accidents than the camera prevents. So what are we left with, a device that makes money from the motorist, that doesn't catch drivers that are drunk/untaxed/uninsured/illegally driving, that is ignored once you get past it and can cause an accident to boot! We need more traffic police that can use discretion at an incident, not a flash.

 

[Mike_5041089]

Thanks to all who've responded - very reasonably. To those mainly private motorists who have not yet been caught and advocate slowing down to the speed limit on out of town A roads and M/Ways I would offer the following scenario:- If, like many business drivers, you have to do about 30,000 business miles per annum, then speed and time is of the essence. At a constant 60 mph, this will take 500 hours to cover, at a constant 70mph, this will take about 428 hours to cover - 72 hours less which equates to 9 working days - nearly 2 weeks work!! Who can afford to throw that away every year? Having said that, my car's trip computer tells me that my average speed in the last 125000 miles is only 48mph!! Obviously, for the private motorist he/she does not have to worry about such matters as they can take all the time they want to at weekends/evenings/holidays etc.

Stephen - no I wasn't caught in S Wales. Once was a mobile unit on the A30 near Exeter - 81mph on a 70mph dual carriageway - I didn't see him due to the string of heavies in the nearside lane. The 2nd time was on the A35 Dorchester bypass dual carriageway - 82mph on a 70mph limit - small black box on road with no prior warning, 3rd time was on the A303 Ilmister bypass - 70 on a 60mph limit - by a fixed camera which I had forgotten about!!

The trouble with the 60mph National limit is that most HGV's truck along at close to this speed, even though they're only supposed to do 50mph on single carriageway A roads - fine on the level, but as soon as you start to climb any hill their speed is rapidly eroded to 30-40mph, so you have to break the limit where it's safe to do so to overtake them or get very delayed.

As others have said we need more Traffic Police to stop the appaling standards of driving and to use their discretion.

 

[MikeP]

Sorry Mike, but your argument makes no sense to me.

Using your figures, you seem to be claiming that speeding is saving you 72 hours per year. Assuming that you work for 48 weeks, that is 1.5 hours per week, or 18 minutes per day.

Surely spending an extra 18 minutes per day "working" and avoiding penalty points and fines is a good investment?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I cannot agree that there is a correlation between the number of miles travelled and the number of points drivers have "earned" on their licences. The number of points reflects the number of times you have been caught transgressing the law and been prosecuted.

For those who claim they have to speed to meet the targets for work, then if that reason legitimises speeding then, surely, other professions can claim it is legal to commit fraud or charge too much or even murder! What absolute rubbish, Show me your job description that says you should speed!

The fact is that if an employer sets unreasonable targets for travelling such that the only way to meet them is to speed or ignore the statutory breaks for HGV drivers, then they should be charged with unfair contract misdemeanours.

You may not agree with the set speed limit but if you break it then you must expect to be caught and prosecuted.

As a driver you are required to confrom to the speed limits or within the prevailing road conditions which ever is lower.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Not only could the employer be charged with unfair contract of employment, they could also be charged with aiding and abetting the felony. What has happened is that many company reps are paid on commission - the more they do the more pay they get and ultimately end up being greedy. There should be no excuse for breaking the law in any form - itis there for the sake of society in general. I must admit however that there are little skeletons in my wardrobe - I do not profess to be whiter than white.

 

[jon_5062082]

the original post was about penalty points for speeding was it not ?????

 

[jon_5062082]

I cannot agree that there is a correlation between the number of miles travelled and the number of points drivers have "earned" on their licences. The number of points reflects the number of times you have been caught transgressing the law and been prosecuted.

For those who claim they have to speed to meet the targets for work, then if that reason legitimises speeding then, surely, other professions can claim it is legal to commit fraud or charge too much or even murder! What absolute rubbish, Show me your job description that says you should speed!

The fact is that if an employer sets unreasonable targets for travelling such that the only way to meet them is to speed or ignore the statutory breaks for HGV drivers, then they should be charged with unfair contract misdemeanours.

You may not agree with the set speed limit but if you break it then you must expect to be caught and prosecuted.

As a driver you are required to confrom to the speed limits or within the prevailing road conditions which ever is lower.

i agree.the lad who lives next door to us has 6 points for speeding and he only commutes a couple of miles a day.

some people are just serial speeders and wont change.

 

[Mike_5041089]

Mike P, What I am saying is that in this completely hypothetical case, a driver would be saving 72 WORKING HOURS per annum, hence the nearly two weeks. Impossible to achieve of course due to Motorway hold ups and too much congestion etc.

But I stated it to try to illustrate a point.

 

[MikeP]

There seem to be two distinct camps -

1. People who get caught and try to justify their speeding - job pressure, empty road, being late, I'm such a good driver and I drive at a speed appropriate for the conditions whether or not it is above the limit, brakes/tyres have improved but speed limits have not increased, the limit is higher in other countries so why not here, etc etc.

2. The abstainers - I don't speed and have therefore never been done for speeding.

For the record, I am 95% category 2.

The point I want to make here is that I can't see much common ground, so I doubt that there will ever be agreement on this matter. A bit like the * x * debate (I dare not mention those numbers!)

 

[Guest]

To look at the issue of speed in another way, maybe a re-look at the Highway code and the section on stopping distances would throw some light onto why speed limits are important. At 30 mph it takes the length of 4 average cars to stop, at 70 mph it takes 24 car lengths, and that is in dry conditions. That is why they are imposing 20 mph limts around schools, at 30 you will probably hit the child, and regret it for the rest of your life. Also look at the average 'pile up' on a motorway, and it is usually exactly that...a pile up of cars and trucks. And these are all going the same way, except for the poor soul that has gone through, or over the central barrier.

 

[rayc]

Scotch lad, Why do they impose the 20mph limits near schools 24 hours a day 7 days a week? Why not impose them with flashing lights etc only at the beginning and end of school day? It is not possible to do 20mph near a school round here when pupils are going to and from the school. The amount of traffic, usually parents dropping off and picking up, limits it to snail pace. That doesn't worry the camera partnership they set their traps at times when school is out.

 

[Guest]

Ray,

I don't about where you live but up here they are flashing boards that are only active during school entry and exit times. However, a lot of drivers have been ignoring them and driving the usual 30 mph, so the local constabulary have been asked by our masters to take a closer interest. They have made a lot of bookings as a result, but these are using police held cameras, not fixed. Actually, the Police have been wery decent about it, and usually only given verbal warnings. However, if it continues I am sure they will get tougher.

I agree the point about congestion by parents, but you don't want to anywhere near that one, very touchy subject.