PHEV as a towcar

[otherclive]

Its unlikely that anyone would buy a PHEV just as a tow car as it would invariably be used for solo use, just like most ICE tow cars are to one extent or another. The charging of a PHEV whilst en route is most unlikely as it can fall back on its ICE. But even ICE have different ranges depending on the tank size and economy of the engine and driver's style.. My current Subaru quite frankly has pretty poor economy and even solo on a long journey I may stop to top up the tank as when using motorways I like to keep it above 1/3 full.

But the discussion on fuel stations and integrating EV charging in with ICE fuel sales led me to think how my family's purchases of fuel have slumped right down since they entered the world of electric motoring. In February my daughter swopped her 2014 Focus 1.6 auto for a Corolla self charging hybrid and her fuel cost s have halved The Corolla uses its self charging to recoup wasted energy, it has an Atkinson cycle efficient petrol engine combined with CVT and it is lighter than the Focus. Yet her driving and journeys haven't changed. Net result a gain for daughter and loss to forecourt fuel sales.

In February my grandson took delivery of a BMW330 Touring PHEV. His private lease on a Vauxhall 1.7 turbo (veritable fuel guzzler in any mode) had ended and the BMW came via some company scheme where salary is deducted, but the cars had to be PHEV, or EV . He works predominantly from home with lots of short trips locally. Again his fuel costs have slumped, and the electric domestic electric is still low compared to fuel. In June he starts a new job and the BMW will go onto the used market and his new employer provides a company car, but it has to be EV. So by 2025 there will have been two cars ( SC and PHEV) being used that have had much reduced fuel purchases at forecourts. They will come onto the used market, possibly to replace a full ICE, whilst two new EVs will arrive in our family, as both daughter and grandson plan to go EV. Granddaughter unfortunately is looking for her first car and it can only be ICE.

If this is being mirrored across the community then forecourts are already seeing reduced fuel sales and will have to adapt or die. And 2025 is also the year that all things being equal we plan to join the kids and grandkids and as the song says come "Together in Electric Dreams".

 

[figbat]

There still seems to be an ICE mentality in this EV discussion. The concept of having a place to go to ‘fill up’ is ICE-centric. You have a forecourt with dispensers because it is a good idea to hold a large volume of dangerous liquid in a limited number of locations, refilled and operated by trained people and with robust infrastructure to safely hold and dispense the liquid. Since people are going there to fill up, the additional (and profitable) add-on shop is a sidebar.

Why though, should filling stations be adding EV charge points? There’s no compelling reason to go to a special place to charge, because electricity can be put anywhere. Sure a special dispenser is needed but these can almost anywhere. And the task of filling an EV is best done as a parallel process to something else, like shopping, eating, exercising, film-watching or simply being at home. Whereas ICE-filling is a primary task that requires 100% attention for a short time, EV charging requires a few seconds of focus followed by no input at all, but over a longer timescale. So don’t think of “going to fill up the EV”, think of “going to do [whatever] and charging whilst I do it”.

Of course on a journey where a charge is needed along the way then it becomes a primary requirement, but a small shift in mindset means that you plan your journey with a meal break, or other mid-route activity, and charge whilst doing it.

 

[Tobes]

Many years ago no one thought EVs could become the "in" thing to have. Who says that hydrogen will never become mainstream?

Anyway we all have differing views thank goodness as some are realists and others look through rose tinted specs. Eventually a middle ground is reached between both parties.

However the thread was about PHEVs as towcars. At that moment it is a bit impractical as one has to find parking for the caravan to be able to recharge the vehicle. Could be an issue for someone who is travelling solo as they will need to fit locks etc before leaving the caravan.

If you had exactly the same ICE vehicle as the PHEV would the ICE vehicle be just as economical to use as the PHEV as the ICE vehicle is not carrying the extra load of batteries therefore its range may be extended?

Why would you need to charge a PHEV while towing. That activity is pretty much only need for full Battery EV. The whole point of a PHEV is you can refill it with petrol or diesel?

 

[Buckman]

Why would you need to charge a PHEV while towing. That activity is pretty much only need for full Battery EV. The whole point of a PHEV is you can refill it with petrol or diesel?

Apologies my mistake not thinking clearly this morning! However will the equivalent ICE model without the weight of the batteries have approximately the same range as the PHEV? Also there is a cost difference that will need to be taken into consideration.

There still seems to be an ICE mentality in this EV discussion. The concept of having a place to go to ‘fill up’ is ICE-centric. You have a forecourt with dispensers because it is a good idea to hold a large volume of dangerous liquid in a limited number of locations, refilled and operated by trained people and with robust infrastructure to safely hold and dispense the liquid. Since people are going there to fill up, the additional (and profitable) add-on shop is a sidebar.

Why though, should filling stations be adding EV charge points? There’s no compelling reason to go to a special place to charge, because electricity can be put anywhere. Sure a special dispenser is needed but these can almost anywhere. And the task of filling an EV is best done as a parallel process to something else, like shopping, eating, exercising, film-watching or simply being at home. Whereas ICE-filling is a primary task that requires 100% attention for a short time, EV charging requires a few seconds of focus followed by no input at all, but over a longer timescale. So don’t think of “going to fill up the EV”, think of “going to do [whatever] and charging whilst I do it”.

Of course on a journey where a charge is needed along the way then it becomes a primary requirement, but a small shift in mindset means that you plan your journey with a meal break, or other mid-route activity, and charge whilst doing it.

Some very interesting and valid points raised, however the discussion should be about PHEVs and not EVs. I admit that the Corolla Cross hybrid when it gets to our shores does appeal to us as a town car and for the very occasional long journey. The Yaris Cross is just that bit too small.

I wonder how long it will be before the greenies start saying Hybrids, PHEVs and also EVs are all bad for the environment and the government once again changes its mind about the type of vehicle we should be driving.

 

[otherclive]

Quite a long while ago a member was posting about his Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV being a good all purpose car for towing and solo use, so as the market has further developed there are clearly more PHEVs to choose from than when the Outlander singularly set the standards.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...I wonder how long it will be before the greenies start saying Hybrids, PHEVs and also EVs are all bad for the environment...

There is no question, Hybrids, PHEVs and also EVs all have an environmental impact and no sane person would suggest otherwise. The point is their impact is less than ICE vehicles. and whilst zero impact would best, the practicality is we can reduce our environmental rather than continuing with ICE.

Moving towards EV's is not the sole solution to our survival, but it can and should be part of our overall strategy. Edit Untill something better comes along.

 

[Tobes]

Apologies my mistake not thinking clearly this morning! However will the equivalent ICE model without the weight of the batteries have approximately the same range as the PHEV? Also there is a cost difference that will need to be taken into consideration.

A PHEV will probably be more expensive than a pure ICE version of the same car. It will also likely have a shorter ICE only range. But buying a PHEV as a pure tow car (or even 99%) would be daft. PHEVs work best when the majority of their journeys are short, and when they are charged over night, every night. If you are buying a car as a pure tow car, buy an ICE (or pure EV if the weight and range is suitable), or a camper van / motorhome.

Realistically though, no car is a pure tow car. So what you buy depends on the mix of tow, solo, short and long range, as @otherclive eloquently points out.

Some very interesting and valid points raised, however the discussion should be about PHEVs and not EVs. I admit that the Corolla Cross hybrid when it gets to our shores does appeal to us as a town car and for the very occasional long journey. The Yaris Cross is just that bit too small.

I wonder how long it will be before the greenies start saying Hybrids, PHEVs and also EVs are all bad for the environment and the government once again changes its mind about the type of vehicle we should be driving.

The "greenies" aka "scientists" have already said that anything that uses fossil fuel is bad for the environment. I.e. Hybrids, PHEVs and yes EVs. The message is minimise your consumption of fossil fuels, where possible by not using them at all, or if they have to be used, in the most efficient way possible. EVs are not perfect. But they are better than fossil fuels. PHEVs and Hybrids are also not perfect, and are better than ICE, but not as good as EV for CO2 emissions.

 

[figbat]

Since it was me that opened this thread about PHEV as a tow car I’ll chime in a bit more. We currently have one ICE and one EV. The ICE is a XC40 T4 AWD Auto - it was chosen to be a family workhorse with towing capability. We subsequently got the MINI Cooper SE which now does most of the short journey stuff. We still need a car capable of towing but aren‘t able/ready to get a towing-capable EV, hence the thought of a PHEV, which would do most of its driving as an EV throughout the year but would have the capability to tow the load and range we require. Whilst I’d love a second EV, to get one that’ll pull our current caravan (and whatever it is replaced by) would mean a significant outlay. A Rivian R1T would be nice though…

 

[Buckman]

Since it was me that opened this thread about PHEV as a tow car I’ll chime in a bit more. We currently have one ICE and one EV. The ICE is a XC40 T4 AWD Auto - it was chosen to be a family workhorse with towing capability. We subsequently got the MINI Cooper SE which now does most of the short journey stuff. We still need a car capable of towing but aren‘t able/ready to get a towing-capable EV, hence the thought of a PHEV, which would do most of its driving as an EV throughout the year but would have the capability to tow the load and range we require. Whilst I’d love a second EV, to get one that’ll pull our current caravan (and whatever it is replaced by) would mean a significant outlay. A Rivian R1T would be nice though…

I am not sure, but wouldn't a PHEV have very limited range on electric if any when towing? If so, there does not seem much point in buying one which will be used mainly for towing due to the price difference and the fact you may not be able to sue electric when towing?
I don't see an issue with a PHEV for around town and short journeys. Our towns do need clean air. I can still remember the smell of leaded fuel in built up areas as it stunk!

 

[otherclive]

I am not sure, but wouldn't a PHEV have very limited range on electric if any when towing? If so, there does not seem much point in buying one which will be used mainly for towing due to the price difference and the fact you may not be able to sue electric when towing?
I don't see an issue with a PHEV for around town and short journeys. Our towns do need clean air. I can still remember the smell of leaded fuel in built up areas as it stunk!

But Figbat says the Volvo ICE is the family work horse and a towing vehicle too. Changing that to a PHEV could eminently make sense as the electric element would cater for short and even longer solo journeys. The PHEV towing range on electric is almost irrelevant as it would use its charge quite quickly. But the towing journey would be predominantly ICE. The “ penalty “ if you want one would be the smaller fuel tank in the PHEV which may require a fuelling stop on the journey. Not really a deal breaker against the other facets of PHEV ownership if your motoring needs align with that choice.

 

[JezzerB]

I think the phev model is great for towing as a start until battery tech and charging catches up-or should I say comes down in price; fuel save s you stopping for a charge-when you get to destination your battery does the local tourist journeys in the main. However I'm still with Figbat; I desperately want a Rivian!

 

[otherclive]

I think the phev model is great for towing as a start until battery tech and charging catches up-or should I say comes down in price; fuel save s you stopping for a charge-when you get to destination your battery does the local tourist journeys in the main. However I'm still with Figbat; I desperately want a Rivian!

I can only but dream or hope a premium bond comes good 🤞

 

[Tobes]

Our Volvo V60 D6 PHEV is an excellent tow car. Tows up to 1800kg, Will tow 180 to 200 miles on diesel, does about 350 on diesel solo. But when used in PHEV mode still gives 20 to 25 miles electric range. Recently that has been nearly 80mpg (which is a stupid measure as it ignores the electrical input).
It's nearly 300hp combined and has 400nm for torque. It's AWD when you need it to be.
If you have the right journey mix (lots of local, and the occasional long tow) then it makes lots of sense.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The idea behind a PHEV is

I am not sure, but wouldn't a PHEV have very limited range on electric if any when towing? If so, there does not seem much point in buying one which will be used mainly for towing due to the price difference and the fact you may not be able to sue electric when towing?
I don't see an issue with a PHEV for around town and short journeys. Our towns do need clean air. I can still remember the smell of leaded fuel in built up areas as it stunk!

Yes - a PHEV will, just like any other car EV or ICE, have reduced range when ever its towing regardless of the fuel its using, and especially PHEV's the electric only range ( depending on the size of the battery)may only be 50% or so of its solo range. But electric only may not be the best use case when towing.

As with all hybrids, the electric element is there to provide that extra grunt to reduce the need to use a lot of extra dino juice to accelerate or to climb hills. By using the battery drive to even out the load on the ICE, improved MPG can be achieved solo or towing compared to ICE only.

To make any hybrid (or PHEV) work the battery needs to be charged. This can be from harvesting what would otherwise be wasted energy whilst braking which would otherwise be lost as heat. With modern electronics such energy collection is achieved and you barely notice it's happening. In a normal hybrid (self charging) all that energy comes from the car needing to reduce its speed, which means the driver has accelerated to a speed above what was actually needed in the first place, So ultimately all the electrical energy has come from the dino juice, via all the conversion inefficiencies of the ICE.

The PHEV still principally operates in basically the same way, but the battery can be pre charged using a low cost (and low emissions ) from mains. This means there is already some charge ready to be used from the beginning of a journey which has not come from the dino juice in the cars tank. Manufacturers have also made the batteries a little bigger in PHEV's which means they can have some practical electric only range.

Edit... Most PHEV offer the driver a driving mode where it will sap some of the IC engines power to directly recharge the battery, this is not the most economic way of operating, but it may be necessary on some occasions prior to entering a restricted are where the use of IC engines is prohibited.

A PHEV can make a lot of sense, Consider a family where they only need one car to meet all their motoring needs, but they need it to the daily driver and to towing duty at holidays. Presently an EV would suit their daily needs, but it would not provide the range or towing capacity needed for holidays.

Conventionally you would need to get the vehicle capable of towing, and have to live with its inefficiency during the week. Or get an EV that does the weeks duties, and perhaps hire a tow vehicle for holidays- which is not alway easy

Or have two vehicles and incur all the road tax servicing and insurance costs for both.

In this situation PHEV makes a lot of sense, you can get the low cost electric running locally, and you have the grunt to tow.