Pitched next to a ticking time bomb!

[Dustydog]

We are the only tourer pitched in a row of four seasonals.
A new Fendt Diamond is next to me using a free standing 47kg propane cylinder.
The scantily clad lady summoned me saying her gas was hissing. What an understatement!
Someone had joined the flexible pipe from the caravan to a 24 inch piece of pipe fastened to the cylinder with the older style spanner connection.
The “joint” used a 8mm piece of copper pipe clamped to the point of maximum compression with two jubilee clips which had almost wound around themselves. The propane was pouring out in pure liquid form from the failed joint.
Words fail me! I told her in the nicest way to get her husband to remake the joint with approved materials. The gas tank is now turned off!
Spooky seeing the disasters some people unwittingly do :woohoo:

 

[ProfJohnL]

A very serious risk indeed, and you should report it to the site warden.

But another part of your comment also concerns me; "The propane was pouring out in pure liquid form from the failed joint." I presume the cylinder had the valve at the end of the cylinder and it was standing vertically. In which case you could not possibly see pure liquid propane coming from the unmade joint. as the valve is above the liquid and in the vapour volume of the cylinder.

You could only get pure liquid if the valve is blow the level of the liquid in the tank, and that would need the tank to be tilted or lying down.

What you are more likely to have seen is concentrated vapour escape, and becasue of its density and
temperature its refractive index makes it bend light and it can look a bit like liquid. The actual liquid is more like water and you can see it in transparent cigarette lighters sloshing around inside. The only difference is lighters use butane which is easier to compress into a liquid and keep in a plastic container where as Propane has much greater vapour pressure and could split a plastic lighter container.

Either way the leak is a very dangerous matter and should be treated with teh greatest respect.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks Prof.
The cylinder was vertical. Even after I had turned off the cylinder isolation valve the gas was in liquid form, wetting my hands but evaporating swiftly. The “liquid “was clearly coming back from the caravan end which is lower than the joint which itself was lower than the valve. When the owners go to work I’ll take a photo.
Believe me Prof this was liquid not vapour or gas escaping.
I’ll see the husband tomorrow and get him to have the entire pipe replaced professionally.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

I don't know what liquid you saw streaming from the fault but I strongly suspect it was not propane. I'm not claiming it's safe far from it, professionals do gas soundness test as they are not allowed to let gas escape.

There must be something very wrong with the gas system in that caravan, and Id be tempted to move as far away from it as possible, until its been declared safe by a professional. The site operator should also be very interested, as they have a duty of care to their customers to protect them from dangers such as this. This is a strong argument for site operators to insist on seeing a current gas and electrical safety certificate before allowing a caravan to pitch.

If there was liquid propane being expelled at the faulty coupling, it would almost certainly have been frosting up at the area of leak as the liquid will be grabbing as much heat from the area of the fault to vapourise its self.
And for the same reasons if you had been getting liquid Propane on your skin, it is very likely to cause quite severe cold burns, as the liquid will try to rapidly evaporate, and could take the temperature of the skin almost instantly to -40 degrees (the boiling point of propane). Given temperatures we have been experiencing recently the possibility that the propane would be in its liquid phase in the pipes is really minimal.

 

[Dustydog]

Morning Prof,
What really matters here is the fact that the owner relied on a “caravanners “friend to join two flexible gas pipes together usong the wrong coupling. It never ceases to amaze me why those who don’t know offer to do Heath Robinson fixes. I hope this experience will illustrate to others the importance of using correctly designed approved parts for gas joints.
Like this
https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/quick-release-gas-coupling/2032. Used with appropriate fasteners

 

[VicMallows]

Dusty,
Your initial post suggests that this was a high-pressure connection to a fixed regulator in the caravan. In that case the quick-release connector in your link, even with good hose clamps, would not IMHO be suitable. It should really be one complete made-up pigtail, although a proper screwed connection extension pigtail would be acceptable.

 

[Dustydog]

I agree Vic. The single connectors cost circa £1.00.

 

[Kevin2306]

Slightly off topic but I was considering the connecting of a portable BBQ to my external swift gas point, Ive had a quick look and it appears to be some sort of bayonet fitting?
Nothing in the manual.

Kevin

 

[chrisn7]

Its probably a Bullfinch fitting, which has a push and twist action to retain it in place more securely than the older push in type.

So now, anyone tripping over the BBQ hose will certainly fall flat on their face, pulling the Barbie on top of them, whereas before the connection came out spewing gas everywhere instead...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Its probably a Bullfinch fitting, which has a push and twist action to retain it in place more securely than the older push in type.

So now, anyone tripping over the BBQ hose will certainly fall flat on their face, pulling the Barbie on top of them, whereas before the connection came out spewing gas everywhere instead...

:evil: choose your fate :evil:

 

[Dustydog]

https://gasproducts.co.uk/bullfinch-caravan-bbq-gas-point.html?currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7PC107322wIVpbXtCh2TZAjhEAQYAiABEgK-8fD_BwE
One of these kits Chris complete with fittings.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Morning Prof,
What really matters here is the fact that the owner relied on a “caravanners “friend to join two flexible gas pipes together usong the wrong coupling. It never ceases to amaze me why those who don’t know offer to do Heath Robinson fixes. I hope this experience will illustrate to others the importance of using correctly designed approved parts for gas joints.
Like this
https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/quick-release-gas-coupling/2032. Used with appropriate fasteners

Your absolutly right it's the faulty workmanship that's the crux of the issue. And I also agree its the well meaning DIYEr who probably is not even aware of the dangers of this type of work, which is one reason I so often point them out.

I have seen more than my fair share of botched jobs with gas appliances and installations some have caused harm, and some had the potential to be lethal.

I know my doggedness on these matters annoys some, but if it stops someone from making a literary fatal mistake it's worth the brick bats.

 

[Dustydog]

Morning Prof,
What really matters here is the fact that the owner relied on a “caravanners “friend to join two flexible gas pipes together usong the wrong coupling. It never ceases to amaze me why those who don’t know offer to do Heath Robinson fixes. I hope this experience will illustrate to others the importance of using correctly designed approved parts for gas joints.
Like this
https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/quick-release-gas-coupling/2032. Used with appropriate fasteners

Your absolutly right it's the faulty workmanship that's the crux of the issue. And I also agree its the well meaning DIYEr who probably is not even aware of the dangers of this type of work, which is one reason I so often point them out.

I have seen more than my fair share of botched jobs with gas appliances and installations some have caused harm, and some had the potential to be lethal.

I know my doggedness on these matters annoys some, but if it stops someone from making a literary fatal mistake it's worth the brick bats.

Maybe this incident exonerates you Prof

 

[otherclive]

Hello Dusty,

I don't know what liquid you saw streaming from the fault but I strongly suspect it was not propane. I'm not claiming it's safe far from it, professionals do gas soundness test as they are not allowed to let gas escape.

There must be something very wrong with the gas system in that caravan, and Id be tempted to move as far away from it as possible, until its been declared safe by a professional. The site operator should also be very interested, as they have a duty of care to their customers to protect them from dangers such as this. This is a strong argument for site operators to insist on seeing a current gas and electrical safety certificate before allowing a caravan to pitch.

If there was liquid propane being expelled at the faulty coupling, it would almost certainly have been frosting up at the area of leak as the liquid will be grabbing as much heat from the area of the fault to vapourise its self.
And for the same reasons if you had been getting liquid Propane on your skin, it is very likely to cause quite severe cold burns, as the liquid will try to rapidly evaporate, and could take the temperature of the skin almost instantly to -40 degrees (the boiling point of propane). Given temperatures we have been experiencing recently the possibility that the propane would be in its liquid phase in the pipes is really minimal.

I suspect that there is an extremely low incidence of gas and or electrical safety incidents, otherwise the HSE or Fire Authorites would be seeking to regulate caravan gas and electrical safety. So whilst I can understand some who call for mandatory certification such a change should only be considered after rigorous cost benefit analysis, which at present I doubt would support such regulatory changes. Suggesting that site owners should ask for certificates would lead to a real mixed bag approach. My caravans have never had gas safety certificates, neither does my house. Do such things exist for caravans? I get the annual service sheets for the caravan which shows gas sytem integrity. But that could change first time out on the road after the service. It’s a fact of life that in all areas some will attempt work for which they are not competent or get others to do it for them who are also incompetent. But penalising the majority for the errant very small minority smacks of my time in school.

 

[Raywood]

I have not been faced with anything similar but I feel I would be sorely tempted to advise the site operator who hopefully would monitor the situation and make sure safe connection was fitted. I am pretty sure most operators would want to make sure they did not have a major explosion with all the implications of that.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Clive,

I did say " I" have seen more than my fair share of such incidents, but that is because that was part of my job. and it is through that type of experience that I know that even the of intentioned DIYers , who may be great with some technical items can really screw up when it comes to gas.