Possible wrong tyres

[Smurff]

Thanks guys for all your help, here we go I picked up my bailey pagent bratange 2007 series 6 a week ago from a very very large dealership, px my old van, I stipulated a number of things like new alko pads, etc plus brand new tyres, they put on ( triangle TR 928 cntt gls, reinforced, 195/70/R14, 95H dot 2vpn max road ratin 690,)
Dispatch team went through van with me, I made notes about torque, tyre pressures etc which they told me 62psi great as I put my tyrepals on, same as my last van, only when I got home and walking round my new toy did I notice bailey label saying 42 psi mtplm 1420 Miro 1195, now forgive me as I'm not great with figures and to be honest don't understand these either but I am a stickler for safety, always stop 2/3 miles after hitching up to walk round n check, even at services after returning from loo, loading van correctly, anyway my last van had 99H and if 690 max per tyre this still doesn't give me much confidence at Mtplm 1420,
To be blunt are these tyes safe/legal if not what or how should I approach these people ( what ammunition do I have ) is there a body I can contact, I really find it hard to belive that a main, very large dealership would put dangerous tyres on, after all you should be able to trust these people for the correct advice etc.
Once again guys thank you all for your input,

 

[otherclive]

The tyres are below the specification of your van and when loaded would certainly be illegal and render the van unroadworthy with your cars insurer unlikely to pick up a tab in case of accident where the tyres were the cause. The good news is that you have only had the van 6 weeks and the Sale of Goods Act works firmly on your side. The dealer has sold you a van that is not fit for purpose and is below the makers specified rating. Do you have the vans service book it clearly shows tyre size rating and pressure. When they realise their mistake I am sure they will change them for correct tyres. Although at 96LI the Bailey recommended ones are at max load. But the Dealer is only legally required to get you back to the Bailey specification. If they don't help try telling them you will reject the van or pursue a Small Claims Court case against them. trading Standars in your area may help too.

 

[Smurff]

Just found service book, tyres195/70/R14 Li96 !!!!!! What does that mean, is it speed rating which is 95H on my tyres if so does 96 n 95H make much difference, I'm sure I had 99 on my last van, they got the pressures wrong as well, telling me 62 psi when its 42

 

[Lutz]

A 95 load index is good for 690kg, a 96 is equivalent to 710kg. 99 would be 775kg.
An 'H' speed rating would allow 130mph, well in excess of the minimum required for a caravan.
An 'N' speed rating (= 87mph) is perfectly adequate.

 

[otherclive]

Now you have the book I would go and see the dealer and ask that they replace the tyres. Did they supply you a new spare as that will need to be checked for size, load index and age. If its over 5 years I would change it, but the dealer will be under no obligation to change the tyre on age grounds as there is no legal requirement. But if it is not the correct specifaction tyre then they could be deemed responsible under the Sale of good act. You seem a bit unsure on how to proceed but from the information that yoou have given you have a clear cut case for the dealer to fit some suitable tyres. And once they realise thier error I am sure they will do what is required. Howver if they wont exchange the tyres I would contact Citizens Advice who are really helpful and will talk you through the best way to proceed. They will open a case reference number so that you can call them back if required and by opening such a case file they begin to build up evidence against certain businesses and sectors which they can use to enforce trading standards or amend standards, but that is for the long haul. Here is Citizens advice link:
http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm
I would be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Smurf,

There has been some excellent advice given. SoGA applies to new or second hand retail sales But now it is apparent that you purchased the caravan second hand, there may be a concern regards the dealers responsibilities to you.

It is automatically assumed that when you purchase a product, you have satisfied yourself of the suitability of the product for you purposes before you hand your money over. With brand new products you can rely on the manufacturers specification, but with second hand products, unless the seller states its to manufactures spec's you have to be wary and check and ask before you purchase.

It may be that a previous owner had fitted unsuitable tyres, and these were fitted when you viewed it. Consequently when you agreed to purchase, it would be the case that you had accepted the tyres. Essentially you are confirming it is fit for the purpose you in tend to use it for.

Whilst I do feel the dealer should have used their expert knowledge to either advise on the correct tyres or simply fit them when asked, but if they are simply replacing with what was there they are acting under the instructions of the buyer.

 

[otherclive]

Surely the dealer has a duty of care especially as they have the specialist knowledge and should have warned Smurff of the unsuitability of the tyres. Smurff should talk to the dealer but first he'd be better to talk to Citizens Advice and seek their advice on how to proceed. Trying to give advice through a web forum is difficult when the facts aren't fully disclosed up front. At the end of the day three tyres of suitable spec or upgraded LI will cost less than £200 and give peace of mind.

 

[Smurff]

On my last caravan I had commercial van tyres rated at 99H these are rated 95H, although the size Is correct what makes these unsuitable is it the rating of 95 H and if so what does that mean, sorry to ask but I'm a bit confused where tyres n ratios come into it, anyway I have contacted bailey, will let u know the reply,

 

[otherclive]

Smurrf I am surprised that after so many questions and helpful replies you keep asking the same questions again. What make syour 95H tyres unsuitable is that the Load Index is below that required for your caravan's weight. Put bluntly if you load up you caravan to its full MTPLM you will overload your tyres. Even if you dont load it to its maximum load the tyers are below the LI recommended by Bailey. You wouldnt put low LI tyres on your car would you? The H is the speed rating as Lutz as answered above. H is for tyres that can be fitted to vehicles with a continuos speed capabilty of 130mph. Now I would think this would somewhat more than your caravan would require. Your Service Handbook tells you quite clearly what tyres are recommended by Bailey. They will have a lower speed rating than H and again as Lutz says would be N which is for a continous speed at their maximum load of 87mph. More than enough for most caravans I suggest. However, if you should upgrade your tyres to higher load index than 96 you will probably go for commercial van tyres (Transit etc) which will probably have a speed rating that is higher than N. My Firestone Vanhawks which I bought to replace the same size tyres as yours are 185/80/R14 with a speed rating of R which is good for 106mph. So if you get the right tyres for your caravan speed rating will always be more than enough for use in UK or Europe.

Here is a link that expalins Load Index and Speed Ratings. http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating
I really think that you should be talking to your dealer by now.

 

[Smurff]

I am very very gratefull for the help I've Recieved and if you want an apology for being a pain then so be it, but as I explained this is really doing my head in with figures n weight index etc, I will be contacting the dealer but before he blinds me with science and says they are fine I need to fight back eg know what I'm talking about !!!!, ok I gave you my sizes of 195/70R14 which is the correct size so I presume the 95 with h being the speed rating must have rung alarm bells, talking to another dealer 95 would give me a max weight of 1380 and 96 1440,

 

[otherclive]

If you look at the link to Blackcircles you will see all of the LIs shown against the weight. 95 is 690kg which gives a max caravan load of 1380kg. 96 is 710kg which gives a load of 1420kg, so your second dealer got it wrong too. If you write down the full facts and what is fitted to your van even the dealer should be able to understand the problem. You also have your Bailey Handbook which shows the correct tyres. Dont let him fob you off that 95 is adequate by such commenst as' well its nearly 1420' or 'you never fully load the van'

 

[RogerL]

There used to be a policy, implemented by several UK caravan manufacturers, that the MTPLM could exceed the Load Index (LI) by up to 10% because the UK towing speed limit was lower than the maximum speed rating of the tyres used - I never understood or agreed with that policy so "don't shoot the messenger".
Subsequently, UK caravan manufacturers, started using tyre LI which exceeded the MTPLM by 10% minimum to give a safety margin - this is my understanding of the current situation - so LI 95 tyres are fine for a caravan MTPLM of 1242kg (690 x 2 x 0.9) - LI 100 tyres are good for 1440kg MTPLM (800 x 2 x 0.9).
That doesn't help Smurff get his head round the figures - sorry!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Surely the dealer has a duty of care especially as they have the specialist knowledge and should have warned Smurff of the unsuitability of the tyres.

Clive I do agree, And I don't excuse the dealers poor attention to detail, but I have to point out how SoGA may view the circumstances as being a customer instruction, rather than a decision necessary for a legal sale.
But the chances are the dealers tea boy was asked by the purchasing office, " what size ties are fitted Mr Smurf's van?" So he dutifuly collects the data from the exsisting tyres, and the office orders the same size. The decision probably never went through the hands of a model savy technician with knowledge of tyre ratings and caravan weights.
For what's its worth I do hope the dealer takes a positive attitude and exchanges the tyres for the correct size and rating.

 

[Smurff]

If you look at the link to Blackcircles you will see all of the LIs shown against the weight. 95 is 690kg which gives a max caravan load of 1380kg. 96 is 710kg which gives a load of 1420kg, so your second dealer got it wrong too. If you write down the full facts and what is fitted to your van even the dealer should be able to understand the problem. You also have your Bailey Handbook which shows the correct tyres. Dont let him fob you off that 95 is adequate by such commenst as' well its nearly 1420' or 'you never fully load the van'

Blimey who can you trust if another dealer gets it wrong as well, this is my delema being told different things by so called experts, ( how many brain cells do you need to be a dealer) joking aside some of this expert advice could turn out dangerous, anyway think I'm getting the just of it boys, sorry to banter on, will go through all your input, arm myself with reliable info then go for the juggler, as long as I can get my point over I don't think I should have any problem, after all I didn't specify these particuler tyres just as part of the deal told dealer the alko pads and tyres must be checked and if need be replaced,

 

[otherclive]

Stick to your position and good luck

 

[Surfer]

BTW if you are at your maximum MTPLM and stopped by VOSA you will nto be able to proceed until the tyres are changed. Unfortunately removing some items from the caravan does not change the MTPLM of the caravan. However having said that, the MTPLM is not recognised in law, so they will weigh the unit and if it exceeds the load rating on the tyres, the caravan is going nowhere which coudl mean an expensive fix at the side of the road.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

On my last caravan I had commercial van tyres rated at 99H these are rated 95H, although the size Is correct what makes these unsuitable is it the rating of 95 H and if so what does that mean, sorry to ask but I'm a bit confused where tyres n ratios come into it, anyway I have contacted bailey, will let u know the reply,

hi Smurff,
it is not suprising that one can get confused with some answers, as the forum is full of very knowlegable people, and therefore can carry some very detailed technical content,
but in simple terms, all of the answers above are correct. all that should consern you is that the dealer has fitted the wrong tyres for your model of van, (size and speed rating aside) the only issue is the load index,
with a MTPLM of 1420kg the minimum rating should be 96 and that allows nothing of a safety margin, personnaly I would not use anything less than 99's for your weight of van.
95 load index tyres are just not good enough for your van !!! just pop down to the dealer and make him aware of the mistake in 99% of cases he will change them FOC as the cost issue is irrelevent for a main dealer,
only if he refuses should you take futher action.
ps, take with you the service book and a print out of the tyre guide as ammo.

 

[Gafferbill]

Colin I agree with you ..... and in my posts I tried not to get too technical.

However the important point for me is the OP's caravan/tyre combination is illegal to use on the public highway.
It is this fact that should spur him to contact his dealer and get the matter put right straight away.
The dealer should be horrified at their mistake ..........which is a road safety issue serious enough for it to be legislated against.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

The dealer should be horrified at their mistake ..........which is a road safety issue serious enough for it to be legislated against.

Could not agree more Gafferbill, Smurff seems suprised that a main dealer got it wrong!! but I'm not, proffesional tyre fitters get it wrong so why not a main dealer,

 

[Surfer]

We have a mobile technician doing the annual service on our caravan at the moment. This is its second service since brand new. The service manual for the 2011 Lunar Delta states that the tyre pressure should be 42psi but the maximum rating on the tyre is 36psi? The MTPLM of the caravan is 1800kgs and the load index is 475 kgs, a 100kgs above MTPLM. The tyre pressure for the same size tyre on the 2014 model is 45psi?
Obviously this was overlooked by the dealership when they did the service last year along with a gas and water leak. Have they fitted normal car tyres and should we be concerned?

 

[otherclive]

I think you have sufficient experience and knowledge to ensure correct LI tyres are fitted to your caravan. Your post really should have been a seperate one as it risks adding to Smurffs dilemma. Is 45psibmax tyre pressure or inflation pressure? I think I would contact lunar.

 

[Smurff]

Hi guys, first of all thank you all for your input and help, I know I bantered on a bit but after buying my new toy getting it home only to find it was a possible ticking bomb and what could have happened then flumuxed with load ratios n all that, well I gotta result, rang dealer yesterday (I would have gone back but its about 300 miles away) asked for service manager, now I'm a little cunning ( fox to catch a chicken) asked him for some advice, just bought a caravan from a dealer I said, it's a baily pageant etc, but I'm not sure if the tyres are up to spec they're only l95 and it says in handbook min 96, Dealer !! oh yes there well under par, that's a fair size caravan you have there and they need to be changed straight away, in fact I would go so far as putting 99 on, call themselves a dealer he says, their no more than car tyres really, who on earth sent you off with those on, (now the crunch) dealer!!!! He asks what dealer put those on, ( yep I can see you all now putting your cups of tea down)
YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!! Errrrrrrrrr bbbbbb duhhhhhh , can I have your name sir, ( muttering n whispering in background ) ca ca ca ca can we get back to you sir !!!!
Phone call this morning, dealer !! Would you like to source a local tyre centre near your home to arrange fitment of new tyres please sir, as I'm not taking this onto road with these tyres on, I'm getting a major tyre dealer to come out, and they will foot the bill,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Well done.

 

[otherclive]

Fantastic result.

 

[Surfer]

Glad you got sorted. I contacted Lunar about the tyres on our caravan. Lunar contacted the dealer and we now have to take the caravan to the dealer for the tyres to be checked. Apparently the load index should be higher as 100kg is not enough of a safety factor. Originally the MTPLM was 1735kg, but we had it upgraded to 1800kg however they never upgraded the tyres.