PUSH-ME-PULL-YOU?

[thursdays child]

HI ALL,

what do you know about fixing a removable towball to the front of a 4x4? This is the latest bright idea HIMSELF has come up with!!! He doesnt want a mover fitted but he likes this idea BLESS HIM!!He has seen this on vehicles at some caravan dealers but cant remember where******* So can you do me a favour and shut him up cos he keeps wittering on and he cant use a PC.

Thursdays Child

 

[CheapnCheerful]

It is not such a crazy idea - usually the towball is fitted offset to the passsenger side. This means that you can see past the van down the drivers side and it gives you much better vision, although of course the other side is still blind. The other advantage is that because the steering axle is nearest the towball, the caravan responds very quickly to steering inputs and it is possible to turn it and manouver it in a smaller space with much more precision. I would still expect a motor mover to beat it hands down mind!

 

[RayS]

Before the days of on-board movers I had one on a Disco 200 tdi and it was a godsend. It was mounted onto the front of the nearside chassis member , such that i could see clear down the side of the van from the driving seat.

They are still available - see adverts in either of the two major magazines - but i understand that there may be problems as they are fitted fairly close to the sensors for the airbags, such that a brisk coupling may trigger the bags, and, of course, very few vehicles these days have chassis extenstions ready to take them.

Also they stick out a bit, so unless you take them off each trip you may fall foul of Elf and Safety, but don't take my word, contact the makers with these points.

I also used mine to recover bogged down caravans - much better than the back hitch as you can see what's going on.

Sorry TC not to do the hatchet job you requested, but your OH has probably had worse ideas !

 

[forestgump]

watling engneering do a front shunt tow ball

 

[Parksy]

The makers advertise in Practical Caravan magazine.

The advert says 'call Mark on 01727 873661' and their email is

www.watling-towbars.co.uk

 

[joeby]

i have a front tow hitch fitted , its detachable with one pin holding it on ,so it spends most of its time in the boot , i also have a mover ,which i took of my last van ,that only gets used to align the wheel locks ,its not worth selling as i wouldnt get much for it ,i havent found a caravan site with a pitch i cant reverse in,and my drive has enough room for 10 cars plus caravan , but they are both there if the situation arises

 

[thursdays child]

I would like to thank you all for your help.BUT now HIMSELF has that look in his eye that means a NEW GIZMO of some sort is on the cards.There is nothing worse than "a man on a mission".

Thursdays Child

 

[Steve L]

I made one to fit my Renault 18 estate back in 1987. It was a simple afair that had a box tube with a mounting plate that bolted to the nearside chassis leg and then a smaller box tube that slid inside the afformentioned. This was held in place by a bolt and wing nut so that it could be removed for road use. It worked fine and was very useful as it put the nose weight over the drive wheels of my car.

These days though, I suspect that unless you have a a proper "type approved" and CE marked bar fitted and you have got the approval of your insurer, wether you are using the push bar on site, or driving on the road with just the mounting flange fitted to the car, you could well find the insurance company ducking out of a claim, even if the bar was not a contribuary factor.

Sorry to sound such a sceptic, but I know just how picky and tricky the spive's are at the claims department. After all they are performance bonus driven.

On the plus side all these "gizmo's" are designed with the intention of making life easy and they do.

Being a person who has arthritis of the spine and shoulders, I look for any tool that makes my life easy and until I found a motor mover ET that I can use on anything where a jockey wheel clamp can be mounted, the push bar was a god send.

Steve L.

 

[Lutz]

The photos in the Watling Engineering website indicate that the mounting provisions for the detachable towball do not protrude beyond the existing bumper surface and probably would not interfere with the energy absorbing characteristics of the vehicle's front end, including its air bag sensors (although this is difficult to confirm without closer examination). As such, the insurance company should not have any reason to object to the fitment of the Watling front towball so long as it is always removed when the car is used on public roads.

 

[Steve L]

Sorry Lutz, but I think there is every cause to be concerned.

The vast majority of tow bars produced by the company you mentioned do not have type approval. furthermore, they state clearly that front push bars are not covered by type approval.

Therefore it is quite important that you ensure that your insurance company will insure you and your vehicle against third party claims and that they also agree to the base plate being in place on the chassis during road use in the normal way.

Just remember the old cleshay, "where there's blame there's a claim" and also remember the "get out of jail card" syndrome of insurance.

Steve L.

 

[Lutz]

As one would only be using the front towball to manoeuvre the caravan off public roads there is no need for type approval. One would need to ensure, however, that the fixed base plate does not interfere with normal operation of the vehicle, as I indicated in my previous reply. It would not be acceptable to use front towball to shift the caravan which is parked on a public road, but then I would also have reservations about insurance coverage in a hypothetical case where someone has an accident by running a caravan into third party property while using a motor mover.

 

[forestgump]

what about a man on a toilet thats worse

 

[Lutz]

what about a man on a toilet thats worse

What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

 

[Steve L]

Lutz.

What I am getting at is the pladantic attitude of insurance companies today.

I have had an example of this levelled at me in the past.

I had a car that had been tinkered with by the franchise dealer as they were trying to sell off the last of the old model cars. All they did was put Mk2 claer indicator light lenses at the front and some fancey graphic adhesive stripes down the sides of my end of line mk1 car.

I didn't see that the insurance company needed to know, let alone add a surcharge to my insurance premium.

Following some idiot backing into the nearside back door, I claimed on my insurance for repair. The insurance company refused to pay for the decal as that was not a standard fitment, despite the franchise dealer supporting my claim. So I had to pay for that myself.

Then when my premium fell due I was hit with a 20% surcharge for modifications.

My point is that if a sticker attracts a 20% surcharge thn a fitment attatched to the main chassis/suspension anchor point is going to give the insurance companies a golden surcharge card to use to batter the motorist with, or dodge a claim if they weren't told.

So my point about getting confirmation of acceptance/approval is a valid point. Also on private ground there is still civil law that can be applied should an accident occurr. Do not think that if you are on private ground, a claim can't be made, because it can.

Again, "where there's blame there's a claim" and don't forget the free lawyer claims his fee against the guilty party by applying to the judge for "costs" following deliverance of the verdict. Well that's the way it happens in the uk.

 

[Lutz]

You have a point about it being wise to inform the insurance company if the fitment of a front towball requires holes to be drilled in a load-carrying member of the vehicle's chassis, but you would not be contravening any laws so long as the front towball is not used on public roads and it is removed when not in use and the function and performance of energy-absorbing structure of the front of the car is not affected in any way. That covers the issue of insurance liablity specifically due to the presence of a front towball, not its use. Whether you would be covered in the event of third party damage while the caravan was being manoeuvred with a front towball is another issue which also needs to be addressed. I could imagine that one would not be covered by your insurance in such a case as the vehicle was not designed for such use. I would expect that the use of a front towball is at your own risk.

 

[SilverBirch1]

Thursday's Child does not mention what model of 4x4 is in question here.

Fitting of such a device on say a VW Tiguan would be quite different to a say LR Defender. Issues to consider include: is there a suitable mounting point; does the mounting point need reinforcing; is a drop plate needed. One reason that front balls are usually offset is that they are mounted on the front end of a longtitudinal chassis member and are therefore well supported.

Oh, and how much force you are intending to allow.

 

[Lutz]

Some cars (Vauxhalls, for example) already have a threaded hole behind a plug somewhere on the front bumper. This is the anchorage point for a removable front lashing eye, used to secure the car on a car transporter or for towing in the event of a breakdown. No modifications would then be necessary. Instead of using the lashing eye (which is usually stored somewhere in the spare wheel well) one would just replace it with a front towball. In that case, insurance coverage would definitely not be affected as there is no modification to the vehicle structure.

 

[thursdays child]

SILVER BIRCH/ I sorry for not putting on that we have a 2003 GRAND CHEROKEE 2.7CRD LTD.HIMSELF has now done "an about turn" and is going down the MOVER route.We have a twin axle so now the question is:-WHICH MOVER? It needs to be something user friendly, not too heavy and able to move our van on gravel.Now is that possible without braking the bank?

Thursdays Child

 

[RayS]

The only answer to which mover can be "shop around"

Personally, I am a great fan of Powrwheel having had most excellent service from them, but I'm sure you will find plenty of support for the other makes too. look back in the Technical and Equipment and Accessories topics - it's at times like this we could do with a decent search facility but we haveto face it - we don't have one.

When enquiring, quote the MTPML or maxiumum all up weight of your van, the diameter of the tyres, whether the van has shock absorbers or not and ask if they have ever fitted movers to your type of van. With twin axles, I believe there are actually 4 drive motors - one for each wheel, so I would also make sure you have a good battery.

The movers behind the axles will get all the road water and dirt, so keep an eye on them, clean them off, and make sure the cables are well sealed in, or you could end up with motors full of water.

I've not moved a twin axle, but understand you have to skip it on the corners, with a single axle you can operate the motors in different directions and literally spin the van in it's own length, but on a twin axle something has got to scrub a bit. (That's my thinking anyway, but perhaps some TA owners will put me right).

 

[RayS]

On the slightly off topic matter of insurers and what counts as a modification, i recently renewed my car insurance and declared a towbar as a modification. I bought the car new, and the insurers asked whether the bar was fitted before i bought the car - yes - and hence it does not count as a modification (to them) despite being a well known brand and not the maker's bar.

Moral, anything on the invoice for a new car can't be classed as a modification. ???

 

[Lutz]

A modification is any technical change carried out to the vehicle after the V5c Registration Document was issued.

 

[David_from_Ashby]

Before the days of on-board movers I had one on a Disco 200 tdi and it was a godsend. It was mounted onto the front of the nearside chassis member , such that i could see clear down the side of the van from the driving seat.

They are still available - see adverts in either of the two major magazines - but i understand that there may be problems as they are fitted fairly close to the sensors for the airbags, such that a brisk coupling may trigger the bags, and, of course, very few vehicles these days have chassis extenstions ready to take them.

Also they stick out a bit, so unless you take them off each trip you may fall foul of Elf and Safety, but don't take my word, contact the makers with these points.

I also used mine to recover bogged down caravans - much better than the back hitch as you can see what's going on.

Sorry TC not to do the hatchet job you requested, but your OH has probably had worse ideas !

I doubt that a brisk coupling would trigger an airbag. I have been involved with quite a lot of airbag development and undertaken plenty of airbag "abuse" testing which is designed to ensure that airbags do not trigger prematurely. One such test is called Vandalism and involves smacking the chassis around the sensors with a large lump hammer. Other tests include large kerb strikes, like sliding into a bull nosed concrete kerb with the front wheels locked. The idea being that you do not want the kerb strike to trigger an airbag even if this does break wheels because you may need the airbag to go off when you hit the wall that is the other side of the pavement!

However, fitting a front mounted towball could compromise the crash protection of the vehicle as the front is designed to deform, absorbing energy. If you then put a heafty bracket sticking out of the front of the vehicle, this could reduce the energy absorbed by the remaining vehicle structure. I wouldn't have one on my car for certain!

David

 

[thursdays child]

I have a question re: insurance.WHAT ABOUT IF YOU CHANGE THE NUT THAT HOLDS THE STEERING WHEEL is it a modification? Or change of keeper?Just a thought and NO I have red hair not blonde!!!!!!!!!!!

Well grey really!

Thursdays Child

 

[Steve L]

Nice one Thursday.

But being perfectly honest, insurers these days can be such a painin the Ar** that it realy is worthwhile declaring all modifications.

For example, they could argue that not every Jeep comes out of the factory with a tow bar and ball fitted, therefore it could be a modification as it is not on the standard vehicle spec.

If you have confirmation in writing, you the hold all four ace's and the joker in the insurance deck of get out of jail cards.

On the subject of a mover. You will need a chassis mounted mover to traverse gravel, unless you could lay a foot path size track of slabs/concrete. Then you should be able to use a motormover or Mr Shiter portable mover mounted at the A frame. I have a motormover ET which I used to move our 20ft twin axle van and because of it's portable nature, I use it for my goods trailer too. The best

 

[Fenester]

The fitting of a front tow bracket with a tow ball on it would create nasty injury or death in a collision with a pedestrian.

When vehicle manufacturers are trying to improve survivability for pedestrians by making the fronts of vehicles softer and energy absorbing then this is a move in the wrong direction surely?